Ranking Michigan's Teams by Season Post Lloyd Carr
The format is simple. I'll start with the worst team first. If I feel there is some gap between two teams that will show. Also, this isn't about records, it's about how good each team was relative to the others.
2008
2014
2009
2013
2010
2017
2012
2011
2018
2015
2016
August 27th, 2019 at 3:33 PM ^
Hopefully 2019 will beat them all. We’ll see.
The format of the OP could use work. Numbers, are their ties, etc. But I have no issue with the order here, depending on criteria. 2018 was better than 2015 on the field, but finished with a thud, and I have no problem considering 2015 a better season based on results.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:33 PM ^
I think I would swap 2018 and 2015.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:43 PM ^
Agreed. 2015 was good for what it was, considering we had a shambles of an offense. But 2018 was a better year overall.
August 27th, 2019 at 5:32 PM ^
2015 felt much better to me because we ended the season with a beat down of Florida in our bowl game. I enjoyed being there to watch it. The offense progressed over the course of the season and Ruddock was clicking at the end. It’s kind of like how important a good dessert is at the end of a meal.
August 27th, 2019 at 5:41 PM ^
Agreed. If we're splitting hairs then I'd have to say that, in general, I rank the records we broke at the end of 2015 more favorably the ones we broke at the end of 2018.
August 27th, 2019 at 9:51 PM ^
Yes, I would suspect that the 2018 team would have beaten the 2015 team.
Plus, I think the 2009 team would have found a way to lose to the 2014 team.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:34 PM ^
Think that looks exactly right to me. Maybe 18/15 could be swapped or tied; I think 18 was better but 15 probably had more to play for late (making us remember it more fondly (blowout v. Florida) when compared to 18 (blown out by Florida)).
August 27th, 2019 at 3:37 PM ^
S&P would rank Jim's teams:
- 2016
- 2018
- 2015
- 2017
...and I would agree. Last year's unit was better than Jim's first year.
S&P would also rank all of Jim's teams above the 2011, which I would also agree with. Despite the excellent record and bowl win, the 2011 season had pretty clear signs at what was to come under Hoke. That team should not have lost to Iowa and was lucky to beat Virginia Tech. Not a bad team at all, but not as good as we remember them, probably.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:47 PM ^
August 27th, 2019 at 4:43 PM ^
2011, the year that the “Brady Hoke poops golden nuggets” meme was born.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:49 PM ^
2011 was a decent team with a game winning talent at QB. Denard managed to win those games despite Hoke.
August 27th, 2019 at 4:00 PM ^
Great points. I agree with your write up on the 2011 team, along with how you / S&P rank the Harbaugh years.
I personally do not have the fondest memory of that 2011 team. It felt like a fraud all year with the number of turnovers and sloppy offense. While it is always good to win, it did not feel like the beginning of Michigan being "Back".
I think it's really interesting to look at the years and how they correspond with watching Rich Rod slowly get better each year, 2008, 2009, then 2010....then Hoke takes over and has one good carryover year (2011), then starts to dip backward, 2012, before falling back each of the last two years before we got Harbaugh.
August 27th, 2019 at 4:23 PM ^
Yeah - I really think RichRod at least matches 11-2 in 2011 if he was given an extra year. Not saying I wish that he was still here, but he was probably owed one more season. He cultivated a good group that won in spite of Hoke and Borges in 2011.
August 27th, 2019 at 5:50 PM ^
Probably would've depended heavily on who he hired as a replacement for d-coordinator once he shitcanned Gerg after the 2010 season.
August 27th, 2019 at 10:00 PM ^
At the time (end of 2010 season), I told my buddy who is a Michigan fan and fellow MGoBlogger that if it was my team I would want 1 more year out of RR because the offense was just about to click into something really special & scary.
That same night was the team dinner with the "You Raise Me Up" moment. The very next day I told my buddy I changed my mind. That dude (RR) is on the verge of a mental breakdown. Have to let him go for his own sanity (if he had any left).
August 27th, 2019 at 4:04 PM ^
Michigan got very luck in 2011 three different times:
ND, OSU & VT
****
ND completely shit their pants in the 4th quarter of that game. OSU had only equaled or surpassed 34 points 3x that season (Indiana, Colorado and Akron) leading up to the Michigan game, and despite that they put 34 on the good guys and had their best wide receiver incredibly wide open with a minute left that would’ve been the go ahead score if not for a terrible pass. I don’t think we need to rehash VT but never forget we completed a pass on a fake FG for a first down to our long snapper whom spent the Christmas break playing in high-school alumni hockey games he was wasn’t supposed to be partaking in*.
That wasn’t a bad team but it sure was a lucky team; it seemed they recovered every fumble that hit the ground, too.
*Exclusive fact brought to you by me
August 27th, 2019 at 4:56 PM ^
OSU was more lucky that a Michigan TD was called back incorrectly that would have put the game out of reach.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:37 PM ^
Rank the following items in the order of their deliciousness. I'll go first
Poop
Vomit
Toe jam
Ear wax
Cat food
Tofu
Parsnips
Spam
Gas station pizza
Saltine crackers
Waffles
August 27th, 2019 at 3:39 PM ^
I would switch the pizza and crackers. Other than that you were spot on.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:46 PM ^
I would also switch the order to: spam, parsnips, tofu.
August 27th, 2019 at 4:05 PM ^
I would switch to spam, spam, spam, spam, parsnips, spam, spam spam and spam.
August 27th, 2019 at 4:50 PM ^
A tip of the hat to the Python Fan.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:46 PM ^
you are way out of line putting Spam below gas station pizza. Shred it up with onion,cheddar cheese over toast and bake- you have yourself a treat. Yes, i am aware of how much i tipped my hand on how poor/redneck i grew up.
August 27th, 2019 at 4:17 PM ^
You missed ranking navel lint for godsakes.
August 27th, 2019 at 6:09 PM ^
What about boogers?
August 27th, 2019 at 4:41 PM ^
No gas station sushi?
August 27th, 2019 at 6:03 PM ^
It's ranked, but just after it's become vomit.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:37 PM ^
2015 was the Ruddockening, yes...? Would likely swap as well if so. Yes on 2016 and 2008 for best and worst.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:38 PM ^
I notice that every richrod year climbed the rankings and the Hoke years went south.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:46 PM ^
Yep.
Rich Rod: 3-9, 5-7, 7-6
Hoke 11-2 (using Rich Rod's offensive scheme ironically), 8-5, 7-6, 5-7
Funny thing is, each coach had his strengths but were oblivious to their weaknesses. Rich Rod knew offense; Hoke knew defense. Had the two been coordinators on the same team, it would have been interesting to see it play out (say, if Harbaugh was their HC).
But, Rich Rod turned out to be less than ethical at Arizona, and Hoke... well, the man simply was not HC material, not for Michigan.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:52 PM ^
Hoke as a coordinator would have been a disaster - the guy sucks. Hoke's DC combined with Rich Rod as OC would have been a good match.
August 27th, 2019 at 3:54 PM ^
In hind sight RR’s ethic was not something that is wanted. Just has always made me wonder if the plug was pulled too early. Maybe if he would have gotten a real DC he would have had more years.
August 27th, 2019 at 6:58 PM ^
Absolutely not, and looking at how shameful his firing was makes me all the happier he didn't last here (but again, there were a LOT of people behind the scenes who didn't help to make his job easier. Read John Bacon's book THREE AND OUT).
As far as his defenses: again, all he had to do was hire somebody who had the 3-3-5 as a specialty. Jeff Casteel worked because his base was the 3-3-5. Greg Robinson (who has been unfairly shellacked at times) and Scott Shafer were 4-3 base defensive coordinators. Rich Rod, the stubborn man that he was when it came to certain aspects of the game, refused to allow Shafer or Robinson to run a 4-3, but insisted on the 3-3-5 when neither man had it as their specialty. Again: that's like asking a monster truck driver to take a Formula One car and do the Monaco Grand Prix when they've spent their whole life crushing cars at tractor pulls.
I don't fault Rich Rod for his offense. Hoke used that same offense (and nearly the exact same playbook) to get 11 wins, and even now Harbaugh is implementing spread and RPO plays, some of which don't look that different in form from Rich Rod's zone read. But the man was not a defensive expert, and should not have tried to shoehorn a scheme with a DC that didn't work with it.
Made me wonder why he didn't look elsewhere for a 3-3-5 DC. There have to be other DCs besides Casteel who know how to run it.
August 27th, 2019 at 6:27 PM ^
every richrod year climbed the rankings
Well, it helped that we totally flatlined in his first year. 3-9 at a school like Michigan is a outlier outcome, not something you'd expect from any coach.
In Big Ten play he went 2-6, 1-7 and 3-5. He didn't set the world on fire at Arizona either. I think he's a guy who was briefly ahead of the curve, but then others caught up to him. (I won't even get into the off-field accusations...)
August 27th, 2019 at 3:41 PM ^
I put the '17 team below '12/'11 (those two really could be a tie) due to just how bad the O was. The numbers for '17's O are nearly identical - barely better than Hoke's dumpster fire offense in '14.
August 27th, 2019 at 4:51 PM ^
2017 offense was still 49th in S&P. 2014 team was 76th. But I do agree that 2017, 2012, and 2011 were about equal in terms of quality. 2011 won 11 games but S&P suggests they got lucky by 1.9 wins total
August 27th, 2019 at 3:46 PM ^
Solid analysis.
August 27th, 2019 at 4:03 PM ^
The worst five on this list are the reason I have tried to ease off on the drinking during the Harbaugh years to date, although that hasn't always been so easy....
August 27th, 2019 at 4:07 PM ^
what in the actual fuck
August 27th, 2019 at 4:12 PM ^
201
1115
8675309
20003
What, does that not make sense to you?
August 27th, 2019 at 5:35 PM ^
I would switch 20003 with 8675309. Jenny, Jenny!
August 27th, 2019 at 4:11 PM ^
Per S&P
2008: 62
2009: 40
2010: 45
2011: 15
2012: 13
2013: 39
2014: 42
2015: 10
2016: 6
2017: 13
2018: 10
I think this is a pretty accurate reflection of each Michigan team.
11. 2008 - Worst offense in Michigan history. Defense had talent but was flawed.
(Gap)
10. 2009 - Offense saw an uptick, defense kept on slipping.
9. 2010 - I think is looked at more favorably than 2009, but there really isn't much separation. Offense finally feels like it takes a leap is probably why, but this is the worst defense in Michigan history.
8. 2014 - Second worst offense in Michigan history, but the team was better than the result. This team basically gave up and things started snowballing once the Minnesota game came around.
(gap)
7. 2013 - Think people forget that this team was actually plenty talented... accept had the worst OL in school history. Riddled with that, they were basically scattershot in their eventual performance. Overall, got unlucky, losing 4 games by a total of 8 points in regulation (PSU, Nebraska, Iowa, OSU). Also squeeked out bad wins vs Akron, UConn, and Northwestern. Flawed, very up and down team.
(gap)
6. 2011 - Transition cost looked bad on offense in early 2011. Coaching staff clearly trying to figure how to utilize team. Defense takes another step forward.
5. 2012 - I'd argue the defense took a step up and the offense actually became more consistent post-Denard injury. This team had possibly the best trajectory of any non-Harbaugh team.
4. 2017 - Very, very good defense, stuck with an offense that had injury issues, particularly at QB.
(gap)
2015 - Much more rounded team than any of the Hoke/Rich Rod teams. Had some growing pains early, but rounded out very well.
2018 - Figured it out post ND and put together the second best run of any team on this list. Defense was fast and explosive, offense was paired well with it, although flawed.
(gap)
2016 - Likely the best group in almost all ways of any team on this list. Probably the best QB play (until injury), most consistent offense, best OL until at least 2018, best defense. This was a complete team. This was a team that was good enough to be in the playoff and compete. Missed opportunity if ever there was one.
Prediction: I think 2019 ends up close to 2018, but don't think it is at the 2016 level overall. Hope I'm wrong and it's better.
August 27th, 2019 at 7:08 PM ^
"9. 2010 - I think is looked at more favorably than 2009, but there really isn't much separation. Offense finally feels like it takes a leap is probably why, but this is the worst defense in Michigan history.
8. 2014 - Second worst offense in Michigan history, but the team was better than the result. This team basically gave up and things started snowballing once the Minnesota game came around."
See, I would flip these two. At least the team in 2010 was taking an upswing (agree about defense though) and won more games. The 2014 team was downtrending with fewer wins, and the offense looked completely lost in a way that was comparable to 2008. Devin Gardner looked like he didn't know what to do half the time, and the O-line was an atrocious, discombobulated mess. The defense, though better than 2010's was so exhausted that it didn't matter what their conditioning was; it wasn't enough.
Rich Rod was no saint, but Hoke's time at Michigan was the worst example of football regression that I have ever seen in a team.
August 28th, 2019 at 12:44 PM ^
In hindsight Hoke's worst mistake was firing Borges and hiring the young, athletic, Alabama cast off, Doug Nussmeier.
Remember what MGoBlog had to say about Nussmeier, ..A QB guru, and QB whisperer? Remember "Mike before the hike?" How MGoHeadquarters reveled with the news that Devin Gardner had finally been taught how to identify the Mike? And while MGoBlog was prescient by suggesting that yes, 2014 could be worse than 2013, it also literally said that Doug Nussmeier was a savior and that Michigan would go 9-3. Appalachia State was the confirmation bias MGoFandom needed to believe that great things were to be had for 2014. Then ND happened.
August 27th, 2019 at 4:32 PM ^
My rankings based on a combination of the season and how good I think each team was:
2016: The best team and it took every bit of bad luck, officiating bias and mind-boggling stupidity (Mason Cole's face mask, Speight's fumble at the goal line and interception) to keep them from achieving more.
2018: Better wins than the following teams (MSU and a good PSU team)
2011: Last 11 win team, beat Notre Dame and won the Sugar Bowl. Really, with the right OC, probably win at least the division.
2015: Didn't beat any of the best teams they faced, looked shaky against Indiana and Minnesota. Still, 10 wins and a bowl game victory.
2012: Can't really rank them any higher, but this was probably Hoke's best shot at winning the Big Ten and it got thrown away with Denard's injury and the decision to have Bellomy back him up. Lost four games by one score and only looked outclassed by Alabama.
2010: Offense, offense offense, Denard excitement.
2013: Notre Dame game, near miss at OSU.
2009: Notre Dame game, near misses against Iowa and MSU, played OSU tough
2014: Ugh
2008: graveyard.........
August 27th, 2019 at 5:16 PM ^
I'd probably swap 2010 and 2013, and then 2015 and 2018.
In 2013, the team at least showed that when it got its shit together it was actually a pretty good football team on the offensive side of the ball. Only problem was the offense had its shit together for maybe two games, ND and most of OSU. The 2013 team also at least had a halfway decent defense that looked worse than it was because the offense kept hanging them out to dry. They were consistently gassed by midway through the third quarter.
I'd definitely put my money on the 2018 team if it were lining up across from the 2015 team. Far more star power on the defensive side of the ball, a more reliable OL, and even though I'd say peak Rudock is about on par with what Shea did last year, Shea's got the upside so I take him.
Everything else I'd say is about right. The only other one I'd consider swapping is 2011 and 2012. I actually think the 2012 team was better, but they had a worse record because they had a much tougher schedule. Played four top-10 teams, got hamblasted by Alabama but lost to the other three by a TD or less (ND, OSU, and SC). That 2011 team fluked its way to 11 wins and benefitted from getting to face off against Luke Fickell.
August 27th, 2019 at 6:02 PM ^
Yeah, the 2015 vs 2018 was difficult for me. I think it was recency bias as much as anything. The end of the 2018 season left a real bad taste in my mouth.
On offense in 2015 I thought the coaches did a great job of maximizing the talent they had. They certainly looked better than the 2018 team in terms of running a 2-minute drill. On offense the '18 team was more talented overall but the '15 offense was better coached overall. It's a shame. Last year the talent was there and it was under-utilized.
August 27th, 2019 at 6:14 PM ^
Good idea but it'd be a bit better imo if you added some info (team record, record vs rivals, statistical rankings etc) for context next to each year.
August 27th, 2019 at 9:42 PM ^
Yeah the 2011 season was fun but I swear Hoke used up all the luck for the next 20 years for Michigan in that one season.