Question re: RPOs
Last year, pre-football season, there was noise from the coaching staff about using RPOs. Seemed plausible, since Patterson had run them at Mississippi.
But I don't think UM ran RPOs very often during the season. Maybe fewer than 15 on the year, but willing to be corrected.
Assuming that's right, any thought on the reason for this evaporation? Might it have had something with our jumbo inclinations, using a lot of 12, 21 and 22 personnel? Or something else?
They ran three. Three. They were in The Playbook and they were effective when used, but for whatever reason their running game and their passing game didn't work off of each other. It was stupid and inexcusable and they fired Pep Hamilton and brought in Gattis
If I remember correctly, all three were good for a TD. Two to DPJ and one to Eubanks.
And used only inside in the 10...
I hope to see DPJ used a whole lot this year, close to 1000 if possible. Though I think Nico Collins will end up getting used more. Nico Collins is the rare type, that just gets the job done. And he looks exciting doing it. He is instant excitement. Throw him the dam ball!
Throw the dam ball to every WR! Let the players and fans breath again.
Our WR roster rivals any WR roster in College Football. Here’s hoping we make the most of them this year.
I don't know if any college team has someone as good as Nico Collins at #3.
IIRC, one was to Gentry for a TD (against Penn State, I believe).
I think the would be TD pass that Gentry dropped in the OSU game was an RPO.
There were ~6 "slant RPOs" where they actually attempted a pass, which I think is what most people think of when they think of "RPO". One was to Bell for a good chunk vs Indiana. Two was a "bubble-slant" RPO DPJ vs Indiana (one for a nice gain, another for an INT because of a pass pro breakdown). Another slant RPO to Black that was incomplete vs Indiana. Two were to Gentry (one for a TD) vs Maryland and PSU. They also ran a bunch of screen RPOs (which is part of the reason the bubble-slant RPO was so open), most commonly against ND (they were likely pre-snap box counts with some potential to read post-snap movement of apex players) but basically in the playbook every week, both with a now screen and bubble screen. They also ran pre-snap box count/leverage RPOs, two I recall to DPJ for TDs (SMU and Florida) and one that was dropped by a TE (I believe Gentry) vs OSU. Overall, they probably threw the ball 30 times last year on what could be called an "RPO", and it's likely that number at least doubles with the times it turned into a run play.
For the slant RPOs, there was one thing they all had in common: no third level defender threatening the slant. It's clear that they didn't trust their ability to execute when there was a third level threat that could jump the slant, likely because of some combination of not understanding tendencies of how the play is covered, where the QB is supposed to take his eyes (from primary movement key to secondary coverage key), etc; combined with a QB that struggled to make quick, decisive decisions in the short/intermediate pass game, especially over the middle of the field.
So RPOs were there, they ran the screen/run option probably a couple dozen times or more over the course of the year. Then sprinkled in a relatively simple fade/streak RPO that was thrown at least three times and probably ran a few more times (without the throw being made because the defense didn't show a specific look), and then a handful of the slant RPOs, almost certainly when they knew they had specific looks based on formation, defensive tendency, and location on the field.
Thanks, SC.
Yes, thanks. :-)
Some excuse for this could be laid at the feet of the lack of a real qb run threat until Ed Warriner took over run game duties (around Wisconsin? Maybe a little before that?). Why they didn’t use it more once they had established the credible threat of a running qb is beyond me. If I had to guess it would be that Harbaugh and Hamilton felt it was more in the gimmicky trick play category than a part of the base offense. They ran it about as often as they ran other trick plays.
Harbaugh Lizard Brain in action.
Not helped by Pep Hamilton.
Three?! That number is disgusting when you think about it. Lots of talk over the last two years about two things: 4 WR sets and RPO. I don’t think anybody will miss Pep. Anybody clamoring for Drevno?
Pep thought RPO had to do with the stock market not football.
Please Coach Gattis, bring us into the 21st century of football offense!!!
I don't know if Pep Hamilton himself knew what he was bringing. The painful offense of the past 2 seasons was case in point that he was an amateur---that is, unless you like seeing 6 fieldgoals against the defensive powerhouse know as the Indiana Hoosiers.
All we heard last off-season was how Pep would tailor the offense for Shea. All we hear this off-season is the Gattis offense is perfect for Shea. I was very skeptical of Pep and if he could deliver. I believe Gattis is a definite upgrade and it will show early.
If I remember correctly 2 were called in the WI game.
Seth or anyone else: How do we know that the team ran RPO only three times last year?
Think from that thing they do where Brian charts every play of every game. Of course he doesn’t after we always lose to OSU and after we usually lose our bowl game so maybe they snuck one in there but feels like they’d notice it.
So that pushes the inquiry to another step: If they're looking at the UFRs over the course of the season, then how does Brian know when an RPO play is called? Here's why I'm asking--when the QB goes to the LOS with an option to go either with a run play or a pass play, how does an observer know the QB has that option?
By watching to see if the line run blocks or pass blocks. I believe that's the tell.
Thanks for your response. I seem to remember explanation on this site, that O-line uses run-blocking in RPO plays. If that's true, and the QB passes, then yes that would be a tell. But if the QB goes to the LOS with an option of choosing run or pass, and he chooses run--either handing off, or running it himself--then there wouldn't be a tell that it was an RPO play. Right?
The choice doesn't have to be made before the play - most often its made during the play depending on what the defense does. The QB, and RB/WR/TE will all do something that shows a threat - when the defense reacts the QB is supposed to do whatever they don't defend. So, if he runs down the line (or feints into it) showing a run threat, and a LB or safety reacts to stop him, that should leave someone open for a pass. If the defense refuses the run feint (be it from the QB or a handoff) and covers the pass, the run should get some yards.
We didn't see a lot of anything like that last year. When we did, it usually worked out pretty well.
Great. So let's hypothetically say it's an RPO and the OL is run blocking, and the defense leaves the A gap open and Shea immediately sees that and gives to Higdon and he runs up the middle for 3 yards.
Shea didn't pretend to keep or throw because his first option was the give and he gave. The WR runs a slant, but barely gets into his break before realizing the give and turns to block. You're saying that we'd all know 100% that the called play had a pass option attached even though nobody on the field really indicated pass? I find that hard to believe. No offense to Brian whose UFRs are legendary, but I'm not sure he has the trained eye to 100% diagnose these things off a TV feed either.
If we're relying on Brian's best interpretation, I'd bet a dollar he misdiagnosed a couple.
I don't know why everybody is having a problem with this. I would think you are correct. If we're relying solely on UFRs, then I would guess we have no idea how many RPOs were called.
UFR.
That's insane. I could see stopping the experiment if it failed 3 times, but with such a high success rate why wouldn't you keep running it until someone stops it.?
I've watched that touchdown to Gentry against PSU 10 times...it was an absolute thing of beauty and ran to perfection. Baffling it could not be incorporated more, especially in the biggest game of the year when the opponents weakest spot on D was linebacker.
Those were hook shots.
Thanks.
They ran more than three. All the WR flash screens were RPOs. Whether they were based primarily on pre-snap box count or if they allowed for post-snap reads, I can't say. But they weren't significantly more advanced than what Rich Rod used to run (i.e. bubble attached to run play).
A lot of the talk last year about including RPOs came from fans, not from the program. It was speculation as much as anything. Harbaugh ran RPOs in San Fran, but for the most part they were simple ones (i.e. screen option + run option), similar to what the majority of last year's were. Michigan did run something like three downfield RPOs last year (there may have been a few more that ended as runs). I think for the most part those were called though when they were confident they were getting the pass look they wanted. The intermediate pass game was a struggle last year, and I don't think Pep did a good job developing it, and Michigan didn't have a lot of the WCO staple concepts that previously were abundant in Harbaugh's pass game that acted as a strong quick/intermediate pass game. It's also true that Patterson isn't great at making quick reads/decisions, so combine the lack of experience coaching RPOs with a QB that needs instruction on it, it wasn't a great combination to run them regularly.
Either way, Gattis will implement it. It's a huge part of the past few offenses he's been with. It's a significant portion of what was run with Moorehead at PSU and last year at Bama. So it won't just be fan speculation this year.
Riiiiight, they fired Pep because he overruled Harbaugh and refused call plays Harbaugh wanted, AND even though Harbaugh was the one who physically signalled in every single play to the qb after hearing play SUGGESTIONS from assistants, and had the op9tion to call whatever play HE wanted to, AND had all preseason and each game week to install gameplans and discuss play calling, schemes and strategy, he wouldn't overrule Pep in the moment or insist on more RPO in the game plans even though he wanted to use them.
Makes perfect sense and is totally Harbaugh!
Maybe Harbaugh did overrule Pep and actually called another 50 RPO's and thought Shea was making unauthorized audibles out of the RPO every single time Harbaugh called it? Yet he never spoke to Shea about it, never yelled at him, and never benched him because he is too shy and timid to confront his defiant qb!
THEN, he found out after the season that Pep was secretly signalling the audible to Shea after Harbaugh called the play! Shea went along with Pep because they were having an affair! THOSE are the reasons why Pep was fired. Of course Harbaugh has no issue with Shea blowing off his play calling or blowing his coach, and is going to start him again with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind.
Either all that, or Harbaugh was in on every fucking detail of the planning & running of the offense, including hiring Pep, including directing him to run whatever he wanted him to run, including giving him whatever power or autonomy he chose to give him, if any, and including approving every fucking play call in every game, such that Pep. could. not. possibly. do. anyfuckingthing. Harbaugh. didn't. want. him. to. do. & that HARBAUGH was responsible for whatever was wrong in the game planning, strategizing and play calling, NOT Pep?
IMO Harbaugh wanted an offense that emulated the NFL and brought in Pep to install it. This isn’t just on Pep, it was both of them. That milk has already been spilled, I’m optimistic that he has seen the light and is going to embrace a more wide open offense.
There's too many great WRs at Michigan have them left in secondary importance to TEs. And Cornelius Johson we be here in 2 months. He could end up being the best WR Michigan has had in some time--but not if he plays second fiddle to TEs. So a big change had to be made. I think Jim Harbaugh wants to make the WRs happy.
I blame Schlep Scamilton. Fortunately now we have Josh GOATis
You can run it out of any set in theory. I’m not sure why the coaches didn’t utilize it more.
Some coaches don't like the spread because they believe it to be finesse. So stupid.
By the way, Shea Patterson is the best QB of all time with the mesh point.
Exactly.
The Ohio St QB this year is very inexperienced. I'm expecting them to lose 2 to 3 games, 1 of them being in Ann Arbor.
Their QB last year was inexperienced, zero starts and about 40 career passes and he won OPOY in the conference and was a Heisman finalist.
But Pony did hold their inexperienced QB to 62.
Wait a minute...
Two years ago we couldn't even stop their true freshman QB when he subbed in mid-game because Barrett went down with an injury.
Please stop with this absurd nonsense.
I agree about Shea ... although, RGIII was pretty amazing at Baylor.
In re: the spread ... remember we’re viewing its success in hindsight so it seems stupid to have doubted it. But viewed from inside the coaching industry, it could have just as easily been a flash in the pan.
Yeah, maybe 10-15 years ago. But I don't see how that excuse could possibly hold any water anymore.
I feel like we practice a lot of things, then only break them out against Wiscy, MSU, PSU, & OSU. The rest of the season we run up the middle and run play action.
Yup. And then without live game reps, they’re hard to execute when it’s game time (e.g. The Game 2018)
Yes, that "we are saving our best plays for the big games" is high on the list of malarkey fans throw out there. There certainly are "trick plays" but everything still comes down to execution. If you ain't blockin' and tacklin' you ain't winnin'.