Question for the board: Why isn't shady recruiting/bagmen exposed?
Alright, we hear alot of serious talk on this board about bagmen, cash/favors, free stuff, etc being offered by other schools to recruits. Some on this board have even suggested that certain OSU players make six figure salaries...yea.
My questions is this: Why do recruits that are offered these things but end up signing with a school that doesn't offer these things (Michigan) come forward about what they were offered by the shady school?
We read in Brandon's Lasting Lessons that Denard Robinson and Devin Gardner both privately (and jokingly) lamented that they were not offered money and girls at Michigan when other schools were wanting to dish it out. We assume Jabrill and Rashan were also offered extras by other schools. Why would these guys not tell the NCAA, even privately?
Will no one believe them?
Will it come off looking like they are lying?
January 24th, 2017 at 10:33 AM ^
They probably want to stay alive.
January 24th, 2017 at 11:37 AM ^
Why are we so obsessed with the Bag Man??? In Reality, The Bagman probably costs us 1 player every couple of years(Estimate). I feel every time a kid we want for football goes else where we want to blame the bag man or say the kid doesnt value his education. If I grew up in Florida, would I love or have the same affinity for (FSU, UF, or Miami) as I do for Michigan??? Recruiting is a Regional Thing. We will Bat very High Average in Michigan,& We will be very good in the Midwest, Then we will have lower averages from the West, Texas, South, and other Regions. A majority of the kids we are now recruiting, hail from different regions. Thus we will have our hearts broken more often than the Michigan & Midwest Kids have done. Because they are picking schools they are more familiar with, closer to, have life long friends going to, & see more regularly on TV.
January 24th, 2017 at 11:42 AM ^
I'd like to bet the over on your estimate, please. As much as I can.
January 24th, 2017 at 11:53 AM ^
that you are incorrect. They aren't all big stories, but they are out there. Jobs, houses and improved situations for parents are more normal than you think. You may be right, there might only be 1 player every so often who chooses cash first that would affect Michigan's chances but you couldn't definitively say that because you have no idea how many kids eliminate a particular school from jump because they heard from other players/teammates that that school isn't paying.
And yes recruiting is generally regional..then why are so many OSU players not from Ohio? Michigan has always been in Michigan, but has recrutied nationally. Recruiting is generally success based. How many Michigan players grew up OSU fans? Or Auburn players grew up Alabama fans? Recruiting is mostly regional because you have more face to face contact with a kid who is a drive away. They visit more games, parents are typically fans or familiar with the school, maybe even have ffamily that went there. Not beacuse there is this regional loyalty that precludes them from leaving their area.
January 24th, 2017 at 1:16 PM ^
A quick scan of OSU's roster shows this breakdown:
75 players from Ohio, MI, PA, and other midwest states, and 10 players from MD, NJ, and NY, which are now within the BIG footprint
27 are from states truly outside the conference footprint; the largest portion of these are Floridians.
A quick scan of Michigan's roster shows this breakdown:
80 players from MI, Ohio, PA, and other midwest states, and 16 players from MD, NJ, MA and NY, which are now within the BIG footprint
35 are from states truly outside the conference footprint.
Obviously not all of these playes are on scholarship on either squad, but I did not try to determine which ones. I would bet that a larger percentage of kids from outside the region are on scholarship than are those in the MI/Ohio/midwest group, but that's totally a guess.
January 24th, 2017 at 1:51 PM ^
as those players have more access to staff/visits.
January 24th, 2017 at 12:21 PM ^
It's less about how many players it might cost Michigan and more about how it allows other programs to consistantly "recruit at a high level"
January 24th, 2017 at 12:37 PM ^
Exactly. Let's just say that bagmen directly cost Michigan a one half (.5) "sure thing" big time recruit per year. Maybe it actually costs 1 or 1.5 recruits, but some of them end up being busts, but for my argument let's stipulate that it costs us .5 "non-bust" big time recruit per year. To the program that's an aggregate of only about 1.5-2 on the roster at any given time (considering if they're non-bust it means they may go pro after year #3 with us).
In and of itself it isn't terrible.
But the 4-8 schools that use bagmen with impunity are serializing this pattern. So while they might only poach .5 dude from Michigan, it's also likely they're poaching .5 from Notre Dame, .5 from Stanford, .5 from Texas, .5 from Washington, .5 from Tennessee, and .5 from Oklahoma (for example) for a total of maybe 3.5 big time non-bust kids per year.
Now compound that over just 3 years. When Michigan faces that particualar program on the field the differential will be a +12 kids in favor of the cheating program versus what it would have normally been otherwise (+10.5 from the kids they poached from other non-cheating progrms minus the 1.5 that Michigan was directly robbed of).
The only programs that a cheating program needs to be overly concerned about in terms of raw talent are OTHER cheating programs who would have a much more narrow talent gap.
January 24th, 2017 at 1:27 PM ^
I think your math is probably ok, but the net you cast maybe isn't?
If usc is a "bagman" school, then I guess you'd possibly include Stanford & Washington. But for our intents & purposes we pretty much refer to southern schools when we talk about bagmen, and I don't know of too many players the SEC poaches from Stanford.
Treadwell going to Ol Miss being example no.1 of our ".5" lost star, but we can certainly think of others who we felt good about getting that went elsewhere in a suspicious manner, some recent. But some just choose another school (for exmple we don't call Devery Henderson suspicious, do we?)
And since when are Texas and Tenn victims rather than victimizers? I mean, maybe they're clean and always have been, which is why they're falling off so severely? They been "bagged"?
But that's not how I view them...
And to include Oklahoma as a school being robbed by bagmen? They recruit & perform at a ridiculous level for the piece of shit real estate they occupy.
January 24th, 2017 at 1:54 PM ^
just as an example, not those schools specifically.
January 24th, 2017 at 2:59 PM ^
I think USC providing Reggie Bush's family with a house, along with all the other Hollywood 'perks' during that era at SC qualifies as 'bagmen.'
It's just with the SEC, you have the image of a cigar-chomping good old boy with a belly hanging over his belt and a satchel of cash in the back of his pick up.
And Ed Martin would be the quintessential 'bagman' ....it's just that MICHIGAN got the hammer, whereas by comparison, other like situations (Oregon football) didnt.
And at the end of it all, while everyone is focused on football, it's true that for most kids, a degree from MICHIGAN, Noter Dame or another Top 50 academic school surpasses any short term gain from a 'bagman.' Couple that with the stats showing how many NFL players are broke within years, even those lucky enough to play on Sundays are more likely to fail than succeed.
We will continue to get kids from good famillies with integrity and lose out on those who only look at the money.
Just the way it is
January 24th, 2017 at 2:23 PM ^
I don't know. I spent 6 years in Lawton, OK one summer. That's just down the road.
January 24th, 2017 at 2:35 PM ^
I don't get it, but I'll upvote because I think I am missing something funny...
January 25th, 2017 at 12:34 PM ^
Aunt's ex hubby was Army. Lawton-Mac c/o 98
January 24th, 2017 at 12:51 PM ^
exposed is simple: because of the money in the game that is now equitably distributed to the schools and conferences with or without the need to win in order to collect, reducing any real incentive to crack down on recruiting cheaters and because the integrity of the game hasn't been exposed by such a scandal that it would spark widespread public outrage requiring action beyond the NCAA level, which means schools investigating their peers and associates.
Schools want to give the perception that they represent student interests and protecting the sancticty of collegiate sports competition from the vagaries of internal sports betting and recruiting cheating to augment it.
This is why for instance the NCAA Tournament, which is the only source of funding the NCAA receives, is the predfominant postseason tournament of its kind and bypassed the NIT which the NCAA also sanctions. There are only two predominant revenue sports where recruiting for dollars is a major issue, football and basketball.
And sports betting not recruitment cheating, which augments it when it flourishes, is the bigger issue for the collegeiate sports gatekeepers and watchdogs.
Instead, this question could be posed to the college presidents who run the NCAA, at least on the surface. It would be curious to get their collective take on it.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:34 AM ^
It's probably put in a way that could easily be argued into heresay. That's as simple as I can put it. You know, Occam's razor.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:55 AM ^
I tend to think that this is in large part the answer to the question - I have to think that these people are intelligent enough to obscure their tracks and, even if suspected or "found out", be in a position where there is either plausible deniability or some room to interpret their actions in less devious ways. Even if they are banned from acting as boosters, it doesn't seem like the ban is necessarily all that enforcable, but I could be wrong on that point.
January 24th, 2017 at 11:56 AM ^
think there is any motivation to snitch. If you just want to go to college, ignore everyone else. Many of these kids play together or against each other in all star games, interact on twitter etc. They aren't adversaries...think of current NBA players. Why mess it up for a buddy or a teammate of yours just because it isn't your cup of tea? You'll still get your education and shot at the NFL regardless.
January 24th, 2017 at 12:54 PM ^
This has been my personal assumption. the players at the echelon where people may want to pay them probably experience somewhat of a kinship at a certain level; they play each other, they talk to each other, they comiserate on multiple levels. They may just not want to snitch on their friends.
On the other hand, if the bagmen were so prevalent, I find it hard to believe that 2 recruits never developed bad blood, being negatively recruited here and there against each other, and wanted to take a swipe at one another.
January 24th, 2017 at 1:56 PM ^
And on top of that, even the ones who choose Michigan or are considered clean by any measures have probably received some form of "impermissable" benefits over the course of their pee wee, 7x7, HS careeers. If you dive into it there's so many things that wouldn't be permitted that it's probably damn impossible to steer clear of all of them.
I think Rashan's family revealing Clemson boosters offered something and they rejected it is about as close as we'll likely come to having a player "out" the bagmen. What's in it for them?
Also, that OT who went to Ol Miss, his step-father blew the whistle when he didn't think he was getting his fair cut. Anything happened there yet?
January 24th, 2017 at 10:59 AM ^
Way before Occam, who is a thief.
Greeks are always better at theory and philosophy. Stoic anyone?
January 24th, 2017 at 11:40 AM ^
Someone's read "A Guide to the Good Life."
January 24th, 2017 at 12:33 PM ^
So Occam was a plagarist? Razor-thin theory there NY-Wolve
January 24th, 2017 at 10:34 AM ^
"Why would these guys not tell the NCAA, even privately?"
Snitches get stitches.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:35 AM ^
January 24th, 2017 at 10:50 AM ^
the speed limit is when someone in the left lane is going slow. I'm glad that they can get pulled over for that BS.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:53 AM ^
thing that makes me see red. For some reason semis are particularly guilty of that.
January 24th, 2017 at 11:16 AM ^
It's so frustrating. You'll have one semi going 68 mph, and the guy behind him going 68.3 mph, so he just has to get in the left lane and try to pass
January 24th, 2017 at 1:01 PM ^
Please. More like 65 vs. 65.1
January 24th, 2017 at 1:28 PM ^
right when you get 20 feet from passing them.
10 miles later, the trucker completes the pass, gets in the right lane, and guns it.
January 24th, 2017 at 2:00 PM ^
You may not realize this, but most corporate owned rigs are governed. And almost all drivers are paid by the mile. If it takes 10 miles to pass another semi because a driver has eked out an additional 0.3 mph on his governer setting, good for him, he's earned an extra dollar or three today. Given how little drivers make for their job, I don't blame them.
There are plenty of left lane campers I get annoyed with, Semis generally are not one of them.
January 24th, 2017 at 2:09 PM ^
They get paid by the mile, but they also have to gain those miles under harsh Federal road time restrictions that are enforced very closely. They only have so much time to make those miles count.
January 24th, 2017 at 11:22 AM ^
Don't drive in Indiana.
They do it as if they're taught to do it.
January 24th, 2017 at 11:50 AM ^
US-23 is the worst for that. The right lane is full of semis at all times. And then the left lane becomes the "regular" lane and half the people in it drive 65.
January 24th, 2017 at 12:08 PM ^
When I lived in Battle Creek, I once got stuck behind some asshole on I-94 near Jackson, who decided to drive in the fast lane at the exact same speed as the semi truck next to him in the slow lane. That dick caused a massive slowdown for miles. Thankfully a cop blew that up. Back then, if you were headed west, the only place you ever saw cops was between Albion and Jackson. They weren't always there. Thankfully he was there that day.
There is another spot in that area where you go down a hill then up another hill. There is a bridge in the middle of that dip running across the freeway at the bottom of the hill. It perfectly disguises the service lane in the median where cops like to hide. They hide there because they know you will be over the limit for the simple fact of gravity.
I drove down the hill too fast. I forgot to slow down before it was too late. I could see the cop pulling forward. There was enough space to get the guy in front of me if that's who he wanted. As I pass the cop, a semi pulls into the fast lane to pass. I have to think he did this on purpose. It was timed too well. At the top of the hill is an exit. I was able to jump off the highway. The cop never saw me because he was stuck behind the semi. All due to a semi passing someone in the fast lane. By the time I got back on 94, the cop had someone pulled over about 3 miles down the road. He had to be pissed.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:35 AM ^
There are a few reasons.
1) Everyone cheats, some are certainly worse than other but every school breaks the rules in some way and starting to point figures means everyone points them right back at you.
2) Coaches move around a lot, players transfer, want to coach in the future etc. Burning bridges in what is essentially a very small world is a really bad idea.
3) They don't actually care. Being offered money by schools isn't a bad thing to players, they might value something else and make a different decision but have no problem with people choosing to take the money.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:54 AM ^
For those that may have taken gifts but won't be heading to the NFL, they stay quiet so they can try and get into the coaching ranks.
Also I think bagmen or whoever only offer gifts to those they think will stay quiet.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:36 AM ^
January 24th, 2017 at 10:36 AM ^
The NCAA is fully aware it happens all over the place, they just have zero interest in stopping it. And why would they? Why disrupt the money printing machine that is big time college football?
Emmert is close with Saban from their days at LSU, so he doesn't stop Bama. And when he doesn't stop Bama, he can't stop the rest of the SEC or top end of the ACC without looking like a hypocrite. And at that point, there's enough of an "everyone is doing it" sentiment for it to become a quasi-accepted practice that is never stopped by the NCAA.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:44 AM ^
The fact that so many top end players can get incentives if they need/want them also helps to prevent pressure from players to form a minor league type institution with which they could circumvent college on their way to the pros.
January 24th, 2017 at 10:57 AM ^
They can't subpoena people, can't look into records, or anything. They only time they can do anything is when outside investigators do the ground work for them, or they get someone to randomly snitch. Almost all of their investigations end with the guilty parties simply saying "no" or "I don't know anything."
January 24th, 2017 at 11:46 AM ^
January 24th, 2017 at 12:57 PM ^
Well, if it's 10K or more in cash, the recipient must report it. Also, if the transaction totals $10K but is broken down into smaller components to avoid reporting, that is a violation of Federal law as well. Also, the recipient of any "bag payment" must report it as income. It is not a gift because it is not made out of "detached and disinterested generousity." Therefore, it is income to the recipeint. Not that the IRS is likely to go after student/athletes but they are breaking the law if they receive these payments and don't report them as required.
January 24th, 2017 at 1:34 PM ^
How are you going to prove they got 10k though? Can't subpoena bank records. If its cash and there's no paper trail, there's no way to prove anything.
And let's say you win $10k in a high stakes fantasy football league or something with your buddies. Winnings are all cash. You gonna report that to the IRS? There's plenty of things people are "supposed to do" but don't do at all.
January 24th, 2017 at 11:01 AM ^
So if it is so commonplace and accepted, then why doesn't Michigan do it? Or do they? I suppose we really don't entirely know. I just have a hard time believing we do.
Maybe its simply a matter of ethical character of our program.
January 24th, 2017 at 12:03 PM ^
Perhaps, but have you stopped to consider that most Alabama fans and Ole Miss fans honestly do not believe their programs are doing this either? I would be wary of investigating the seedier side of college football because I think that the way the sausage gets made everywhere is going to make us sick
This is not to say that I think we have bagmen or anything of the sort, but I am sure there is a darker side to the culture of every major program that we probably don't want to know.
January 24th, 2017 at 12:10 PM ^
January 24th, 2017 at 12:30 PM ^
Years ago football players were provided jobs by both boosters and the university to do work that was not very taxing. I'm sure that is still occuring, not exactly bagmen.
We could mitigate this by paying a larger stipend, but bagmen will always find a way to pay more. Minor league pro football might be a better way to solve the problem. Both probably impossible at this point.