Q. about our basketball defense
Serious question.
Can somebody please explain our defensive theory to me?
It seems like if we just had each guy play straight up man we wouldn't give away so many uncontested 3's. What is the benefit of getting sucked into the middle and leaving an open 3 pt shot? We must have given up 3-4 made 3's today because of this. Is there a defensive set when we don't get sucked in?
Thank you.
And 1 comment about the refs...Just because we imploded once again, doesn't excuse the refs from doing their jobs. These refs let teams play all tournament without calling ticky tack fouls but in the 2nd half they started calling bullshit fouls on us. No excuse. And how do you not call that foul on Poole? They took away our chance to win the game.
Defensive Theory...the other team has the ball and we try to stop them from scoring.
The defensive strategy in the second half was borderline insane. Initially I thought the over-rotating was a mistake by Iggy, but after both Poole and Brooks did the same thing, it became clear that this was a strategic decision by Beilein and Yaklich. They let MSU beat them the only way they could.
Mind-boggling.
Actually, as the first two games showed, that was not the only way MSU could beat us. The other games they destroyed us in the paint.
March 17th, 2019 at 10:04 PM ^
Iggie at times seems to make many defensive errors, losing contact with his opponent; Followed by losing a step covering a basket breaking cutter and an inevitable basket.
March 18th, 2019 at 12:01 AM ^
I think the guys were over committing on the help D. I can’t believe they were coached to play off McQuaid that far. Especially after he got hot.
March 18th, 2019 at 10:47 AM ^
This is literally the defense that Yaklich installed that propelled us to the #2 defensive team in the nation this year. We were absolutely terrible at guarding the pick and roll before, and it was because the roll man never received appropriate help and we gave up a bunch of easy lay ups. Yaklich's D has the weakside defender rotate down and guard the roll man, and it gives the offense a 2 second window to make a cross-court pass across 2-3 defenders to get a quick 3 up against a defender closing out. Unfortunately, Izzo a good coach, understood the weakness, has a big ten player of the year running the PnR, and McQuaid was dripping wet. I was at the game and haven't rewatched, but I believe the majority of his 3s were when he was on the weak side immediately after Winston accepted a screen to the strong side. We definitely needed to make a better adjustment, but MSU didn't start attacking this regularly until the second half, so Beilein didn't have a great opportunity to make a halftime adjustment. And when we did fully adjust, it opened the lane for Winston to get the lay ups to seal the game. To say our defensive strategy is insane, in my opinion, is a bit myopic and doesn't show great understanding of the stategic game that's actually being played. (Not trying to be offensive here... just trying to give my take). That being said I'm very much looking forward to Zion teabagging McQuaid 2 weeks from now.
March 19th, 2019 at 12:36 AM ^
Right. The only thing wrong was when the offense went into a shell and didn't score in the last minute and a half. The 'everyone stand on the perimeter and watch X dribble' offense was odd. You have to score in basketball.
Weak side defender over helped because Winston can play the pick and roll so damn well and someone had to be there to stop the roller. And Izzo figured it out quick and MSU exploited it.
Yes, we started to sag off of McQuaid after Winston took the ball to the hoop for three layups. They simply sat McQuaid at the three-point line and ran pick-and-roll on his side with Winston. Once Winston started toward the basket, we sagged to stop him and... death.
We don't normally give up a lot of open threes. The problem with MSU is basically that Winston is really good at everything, including floor vision. They set lots of ball screens for him that force the defense to make a tough choice. Usually the opposing big man switches on to him, but he frequently is able to find his big man rolling to the basket with a mismatch. Then, to avoid getting destroyed with uncontested dunks inside, teams rotate another defender . . . but that guy must come from somewhere, and often it's the shooter on the wing. Or, Winston blows by the big guy and the defense either watches him shoot a layup or rotates a defender onto him - again, usually the one covering the shooter on the wing.
Would be nice if the NBA valued WInston more so he would go get a job this year.
I don't know what his pro stock is but whatever it is, he's probably maximized it at this point.
March 17th, 2019 at 10:08 PM ^
I don't know either. ESPN has him behind Poole, which is either laughable or badly out of date, I'm not sure which. He's pretty clearly not considered a first rounder, so my recommendation to him would be to get a degree or take a bunch of foreign language classes next year. And hope that some guy running a bunch of SAS jobs figures out that point guards who can run pick-and-rolls are valuable in the NBA.
March 17th, 2019 at 10:43 PM ^
No. It's much more strongly rooted in the fact that you don't know a damn thing about how the game is played or what it takes to play it. Poole is a helluva talent no matter what you say and how loudly you yell otherwise.
The simple truth for all you bashers showing up here is that all these kids are talented Div 1 basketball players. These kids can all play. Too many partisans have this ridiculous idea that when a kid puts on "their" team's uniform they automatically become better than the "other" guys. They do not. When you play this game at this level there are many decisions you have to make regarding the best way to hedge enough of those matchups in your favor-and coaches make mistakes too. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose-it is really that simple.
March 18th, 2019 at 12:10 AM ^
Poole may be a helluva talent, but he sure hasn't put it together yet and is eons away from sniffing the NBA.
He is a helluva talent, but he is not a smart basketball player right now. Very, very bad decision maker.
It often seems like he makes the exact opposite decision that he should.
Oh, wide open three off a Teske pass? I'm going to pump fake it, let Henry get closer to me, not side step far enough and take it again and get it blocked.
He seems to do that a lot. Gets set up with a wide open three and inexplicably doesn't take it, but then the next time down will dance around and take a fall away contested three. I don't remember ever watching someone that I yelled at so often to both shoot the damn ball and then wtf are you doing shooting that.
I imagine that's what's happening. Beilein yells at him to shoot after he passes up a good shot and then he jacks up a terrible shot the next time down. His shot selection is so bad.
Oh, and then there are three guys waiting for me to drive right into them? Ok, i'll do that and turn it over instead of bring out and run the offense.
I was really encouraged that Eli Brooks seems to have gotten his confidence back and I thought he had a nice tournament. He even came in during the usual Michigan second half meltdown in which guys forget how to not jack up terrible shots, drove the paint, up faked Tillman and hit a nice layup. Keep him in the game if Poole isn't going to learn his lesson. But no, Poole came back in to give the game away again.
At this point I chalk it up to inexperience, and it's why I think this particular group will peak next year, even without Matthews
Both Brooks and Livers have shown signs of becoming solid contributors. And I expect DeJulius will develop as well; he has talent but is still tentative.
Poole drives me crazy with his shot selection, but nobody will ever accuse him of being afraid to take the big shot. He ought to develop in both his shooting and his judgment next year. This a pretty young team this year.
March 18th, 2019 at 11:09 AM ^
The bench is young. The starters are not that young. X and Teske are both juniors and Matthews is a rs junior. Unfortunately that bench is going to be really inexperienced next year as Livers replaces Matthews and JB did nothing to get any freshman besides Iggy quality playing time. Our first two games in the BTT were blowouts and I was surprised at the lack of mixing in some of the freshman bench players with the starters. Just my opinion though as JB knows far more about basketball than I do.
March 18th, 2019 at 11:54 AM ^
It's not inexperience, per se. He might "get it" at some point, but most players already know what is a good shot and what is a bad shot when they arrived, if they were coached well in high school. Others learn very quickly.
Jordan Poole is either a very slow learner as it relates to basketball or he is just defiant. I'm sure it's the former. Hopefully it is and hopefully it clicks for him at some point but he is way behind the normal learning curve for a guy that's been in the program for two years.
our sagging into the middle stopped most (not all) of their points in the paint. yeah, the neck beard kid had a career day, but tillman and co. did not get a bunch of two-handed flushes.
and the only call/non-call that sticks in my craw was the leap into poole by chinless. that should have been a charge, or a non-call, or at worst, a 1-and-1 since he wasn't shooting. if he's called for the charge we are up 5 with the ball and 2 minutes left, they need to seriously think about a high-risk, trapping, over-playing D that michigan usually handles pretty well.
I have never seen that called a charge, nor will it ever be called a charge.
That actually is a charge in the NBA. McPoyle initiates the contact there.
No, it’s not. I’d be willing to wager that has never been called a charge in the history of the NBA. I much prefer NBA to CBB, but the NBA is even worse about calling that garbage a shooting foul than the NCAA is.
March 17th, 2019 at 10:10 PM ^
That should have been called an offensive foul In the NBA they dont let them do that anymore. Mcquaid forced the contact by jumping Into Poole without evening attempting a shot. If he stayed where he was no contact would have happened.
March 17th, 2019 at 10:27 PM ^
Every year the NBA says they will stop calling that a foul, but they never do. I’ve seen that same exact play called a foul 100 times this year.
March 18th, 2019 at 12:08 AM ^
I don’t think I have ever seen a kid initiate contact on play quite like that. Poole went straight up. McQuaid launched directly forward shoulder into his sternum from 2-3 feet away. It’s almost dangerous.
its a charge If it’s not a charge it should be Poole should have rights straight up
No, Poole did not jump straight up. He jumped into McQuaid. It was unquestionably a foul.
BUT, how was it a shooting foul? McQuaid was coming down from his pump fake and was literally standing on the ground, then just threw his hands up after the foul and whistle occured. It was not a shot attempt.
March 18th, 2019 at 10:39 AM ^
Sorry, but clearly an offensive foul if you even want to call something on that at all. McQuaid wasn't moving forward until Poole was in the air and then he lowered his shoulder and stepped into Poole. There was no intention of shooting.
I think its a matter of help because Winston got to the bucket so much in the first two games. And Tillman and Goins poured in buckets as well, largely because Winston is also an excellent passer. But, they were sagging too hard off McQuaid today. They kept Goins in check - he couldn't hit anything, but they routinely left McQuaid alone and he had the hot hand. One time Iggy got caught like on the inside of Ward and Teske was in the right spot, then Winston sent a cross-court pass to McQuaid and Iggy couldn't get there. So in conclusion I have no idea.
I noticed a few takes to the bucket by State that got whistles eventhough there was little to no contact which was a little annoying. But then that fucking call when Michigan was up 5 killed them. Poole got caught in the air but McQuaid moved into him to create the contact. This is already the worst thing about basketball but the ref took the bait. At worst, that should be on the floor - not 3 shots, because he sure as hell wasn't in a shooting motion (but Poole, come on, man). But if you call that you should call the fucking play IN WHICH MICHIGAN STATE IS TRYING TO FUCKING FOUL JESUS CHRIST YOU WONT EVEN CALL A FUCKING FOUL ON THEM WHEN THEY'RE TRYING TO FUCKING FOUL WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU GODDAMN IT GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!
March 18th, 2019 at 10:35 AM ^
" Poole got caught in the air but McQuaid moved into him to create the contact. "
In the NCAA - if the defender isn't vertical, the offensive player can jump into him and it's a defensive foul.
Poole was far from vertical.
Is today the only game you watched all year? We are one of the best d's against the three. Dude got hot, sometimes that happens.
It really wasn't the problem today. Winston is the best PG in the country, he's gonna make a lot of defenses look bad. Quite frankly we did pretty well against an elite offense. You're not gonna stop everything that MSU will throw at you, so we sacrificed giving up McQuaid 3's to stop their pick and roll game that killed us the first 2 games.
The problem was, once again, the offense got completely stagnant for too long of a period. Players were just standing around and our solution was to go 1 on 1 and take contested shots. This happens far too often and it's why this team does not have a single title to its name this year.
March 17th, 2019 at 10:09 PM ^
In the second half, we had a series of about 4-5 bad shot selections from 3pt land that did nothing, we looked a lttle tired / unmotivated between about 12:00 and 8:00 minutes left...it hurt us and opened the momentum door.
March 17th, 2019 at 10:13 PM ^
I think the # 2 pick in the upcoming draft Ja Morant from Murray State is the best pg in the country. Winston is good but I dont think he is top 5 in the country.
March 17th, 2019 at 11:59 PM ^
Depends on what you want. Morant's more explosive, a better finisher, he can blow by a bad closeout like nobody else. If I were in an NBA draft room I'd prefer him by a mile. But he doesn't pick-and-roll like Winston (can't or doesn't I'm not sure, they simply never roll their screener off a high ball screen) and he couldn't run MSU's offense as well as Winston does.
Winston's a better defender, too. Morant tends to get upright and he's not a good off-ball defender either. Yet. He's sure as hell quick enough to be able to learn--it's really more a question of discipline than anything else.
Winston isn't a pro but in the college game, he's a top 2 PG. And he now has the perfect team. An athletic big that'll finish off the pick and roll (Tillman) and two excellent three and D guys (Goins and McQuaid) that can just sit in the corners and spread the floor for the pick and roll or hit threes when guys help.
March 18th, 2019 at 12:10 AM ^
How is the best point guard in the country not going pro?
The number one defense in the nation according to Kenpom defensive efficiency ratings - The one that held the best team in the conference to 65 points today; Yeah, they are legitimately excellent. There are over 300 teams, it is hard to be better than number one. But yeah, you should complain about the defense.
edit: now #2 to Texas tech by 0.2 points - so you should definitely complain!
if you hold a team to 63 points you should win 99.9% of the time.
The offense completely fell apart and all our guys wanted to do was shoot jumpers and throw terrible passes to Teske.
My theory is Beilein and Yaklich have no faith in any of our perimeter defenders except for Z and Mathews. The constant rotating and helping is maddening. Im starting to wonder if they need to simplify things a bit because Poole and Iggy look completely lost at times.
Im satisfied with our defense but it seems like vs MSU we can’t ever get a stop when we need one. The McQuaid fiasco today was a complete disaster. It’s Mathews on him or you tell whoever is to NOT HELP off of him. Stay in his hip pocket all game.
You don't know much about basketball. They have to rotate against MSU's pick and roll. When they didn't rotate aggressively enough in the first game, they gave up dunks left and right to the roll man. So they rotated onto the roller and forced Winston to find him. Winston did and the guy hit 7-13. You just tip your cap to that. You'll always give up a three instead of a dunk.
MSU is an elite offense that forces you to pick your poison and Michigan did the smart thing. MSU just had a guy go off today. Michigan still only gave up 65 pts on 60 possessions (62 on 58 before foul time). That's great defense against MSU.
Problem today was offense. Did the usual thing in the second half where Iggy and Poole go hero ball and just jack up threes off the dribble.
Pretty simple, we can’t play straight up man cause pooles defense is so terrible. He needs help from others. Today mich state went after him, if he rolled over the top on the screen. (Which he does nearly all the time) they drove. If he helps d they throw to the man he left open ( which was a lot). If he closed they pump faked him into a foul. His hockey +/- was - today.
The refs cheating is not always the reason we lose a game. They didn’t take away our chance to win.
They took the ball away from us with 13 seconds left and then didn't call a foul when MSU wanted to foul with 6 seconds left, so actually yes, they did take away our chance to win.
If you want to argue that we should have finished the game off earlier, fine, but that doesn't justify those (no-)calls.
It was probably the right call at 13 seconds left.
March 18th, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
This is where I think replay can hurt the game. In the "old days" if you swiped the ball out of someone's hands, like happened there, it went to the team that had possession because we assumed the person swiping the ball touched it last unless it clearly deflected off a leg, or had a clear, obvious re-touch from the offensive player trying to regain possession. That's basically what our eyes tell us - the person that swatted the ball out of the offensive players hand knocked it out of bounds..
Enter replay and now in super slow motion it might have rolled off Teske's fingers as it's leaving his hand. Not enough that it can be seen in real time. To me it's not even indisputable, but looks probable that it was last on Teske's fingers. It's become so inconsistent - it's burned us twice but in other games I've watched it stayed with the person that lost the ball even though it looked the same. I think they need to tweak the rule somehow to account for what's effectively the act of leaving the person's hand when it's swatted away.
Need shooters
March 17th, 2019 at 10:31 PM ^
Honestly I think this is it. If Simpson was high 30% and/or Matthews was we might not have lost a game all year.
If there is any coach-level opinion on this I would really like to hear it. I'm back in the coaching game after some time off and would like to hear what others see as the big difference between M/Yacklich M2M and regular M2M.