OT: Would you mind if your child majored in General Studies (BGS) at LSA?
Oldest son began at LSA and quit about two years in, so we felt a bit disappointed and burned a bit financially. He has a full-time but crummy entry level gig. Gig pays his rent and bills but there's no room for real advancement without a degree and it also feels like he's stalled maturity-wise. Kids he went to high school with are in careers, moving around the U.S., getting engaged, even buying their own houses, so we wish he'd return to finish college to open up those same milestones. We will pay the tuition and expenses again, but at the same time, we don't want him to waste the opportunity just drifting through the easiest degree in online courses (online at least at first).
General Studies (BGS) will likely be the easiest and quickest to finish, so he could sooner 'check the box' for a bachelor's. I'm aware of a few BGS success stories, but he does not have an aggressive boisterous personality, nor do we any lucrative professional connections to tap, so I'm worried a BGS wouldn't be ideal.
He was a studious math kid in high school, with stats to prove it, so I was hoping he'd consider something practical like Industrial and Operations Engineering (IOE) or Computer Science (LSA), which loosely relate to his current job. Neither are easy, but they're also not the most intense. One of those degrees would change his life and all things considered I'm not convinced a BGS would. Or maybe I'm completely off base and need to let him do whatever he wants (with our money)?
February 10th, 2021 at 11:26 PM ^
OP said he "felt burned a bit financially" because he paid for 2 years of school without his son finishing his degree. OP later says "We will pay the tuition and expenses again, but at the same time, we don't want him to waste the opportunity just drifting through the easiest degree in online courses" which basically means he has the financial means to pay, but just doesn't want to pay for a waste of time or worthless degree
February 11th, 2021 at 12:34 AM ^
The OP is soliciting opinions. Responders are posting opinions. Where's the Beef?
February 11th, 2021 at 12:34 AM ^
I disagree here. My older son struggled to make a living wage with his first degree. We talked, long and honestly, about a second career - one requiring a completely different degree (a Masters). I told him that I would fund it if he agreed to work for straight As across the entire process.
He just got his MS with a 3.89 and is working to launch again. I'm proud of the guy and glad I could help.
February 11th, 2021 at 9:09 AM ^
Your son sounded motivated. OP's kid doesn't sound like he has any direction or appreciates the value of getting an education. He needs to get his hands dirty with some blue collar work to see if it's worth it.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:03 PM ^
I wouldn't pay for anytihng further unless your kid came to you w a definitive plan to get a specific degree and target a solid and realistic career.
He already tried the general LSA thing w no direction, and it didn't work despite your investment. Don't go down that path again.
He doesn't sound aggressive and confident about his approach and ultimate goal. The world today is unkind to such people. He is a young adult - the ball should be in his court to change and aggressively come to you w a plan to invest in his future.
Wish you and your son the best.
February 11th, 2021 at 9:38 AM ^
Agree here. I obviously don't know the situation and don't mean to criticize, but we are in adult territory here. I wouldn't let him mill around and just wait on you to tell him what to do and fund it. If you agreed to pay for something and it didn't work out the first time, that is fine, but in order to even consider funding the next venture, I'd want a specific plan of attack and ensure he knows that this is the last free ride.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:06 PM ^
No to BGS... especially if he doesn't have the personality to interview his way in to a position that might normally require a more specific degree.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:54 PM ^
My friend told me, if you don’t have charisma, major in math.
February 10th, 2021 at 11:20 PM ^
YES to BGS because getting an undergrad degree of any kind opens the door for a masters degree down the road when this individual realizes he is ready for more education/job improvement. I went to grad school 5 years after undergrad after swearing up and down I was done with school forever. People mature and improve. Best to leave the door open just in case.
February 11th, 2021 at 8:52 AM ^
This ^ ^ ^. I quit UM with literally two classes to go because of a family emergency that put me into the business. Sort of like in "It's a Wonderful Life" except me being much less noble than the Jimmy Stewart character. 15 years later I went back and picked up a BGS (I was a computer engineering major) because I wanted to go to grad school and the two classes to get the BGS were much more doable than remembering all the math I hadn't seen in over a decade. Picked up my masters and my doctorate. Point of story: BGS opened the door for me to now do exactly what I enjoy.
February 11th, 2021 at 7:07 AM ^
This is a really interesting discussion.
Sometimes these off-topic topics are just as engaging as anything related to sports here on MGoBlog.
I wanted to comment on some of the "pro-BGS" arguments.
Note that many of those who've cited their professional success after having gotten a BGS also went to graduate school. While it's certainly possible your son might choose to go to graduate school, I wouldn't bake that in to your current situation.
Quite a few mention allowing him to follow his interest, passions, or dreams. One can do that just as easily with a degree that is more geared to a vocation. If he wants to work in sales...or decides to learn a trade...or whatever, he can do all of these things with a data science degree just as easily with a BGS.
My son is a sophomore at U of M and expressed interest in applying to the School of Information. He came to this decision on his own, but we certainly encouraged him to do so...with the feeling that having a degree that is a bit more "vocational" will be of benefit to him. My wife and I have both spent our careers in business development/media/marketing...which don't require any specific degree. At this point, our son doesn't appear to have the characteristics and personality needed for success in these fields...so we are pleased that he has chosen the direction he's chosen. Should that change, he can certainly go in to the above-mentioned fields with his SI degree...while still having the benefit of a degree that probably increase his opportunities to secure a good first job after graduation. (fingers crossed that he gets accepted to the program!)
Others are mentioning that he might change, mature, get more motivation, etc. This can just as easily not be the case as it is the case. I've got many friends from HS/college who are exactly the same as they were 30-35 years ago...as well as many friends who have evolved and grown in unexpected ways.
The bottom line is that every person is different. You need to take your child for who he is at this moment and try to look at his situation as objectively as possible...and then try to guide him down the right path and set him up for success (whatever that looks like) as an adult.
February 11th, 2021 at 9:11 AM ^
I have a BGS degree because it was the path to taking the classes I wanted to take rather than having a major requirement. At no point in the job application process in my career has the degree come up because someone wants something more specific. Outside of a few technical jobs in which specific talents are actually required, 90% of jobs are just basic common sense, analytical skills and intelligence. I've received job offers from the big four management consulting firms, law firms, and the non profit space where I work.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:07 PM ^
My brother got a BGS degree. Went on to get an MBA, and he now runs a company. He wasn't that serious in undergrad, and had to mature a bit to start taking life more seriously. I think a lot of it is maturity, and they all have their own pace. My 21 year old has an idea of what he wants to do and it relates to his major, but it's a long shot goal. I'm encouraged by his passion which has led him to develop a great work ethic. I think the key is to find the thing or things you love to do, and worry about the other stuff -- salary, career prospects -- later.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:07 PM ^
My recommendation is that he does internships in whatever field he could see himself being in during the summers. Few things are better than seeing a resume with tangible experience. Best of luck, I’m sure he will find his way and your encouragement is important.
Signed, an LSA degree that is in engineering sales management.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:08 PM ^
Computer science at Michigan "not the most intense"? I didn't do it, but it seemed pretty damn intense for a few friends. Lots of large, time-consuming projects and the material is far from easy.
February 11th, 2021 at 10:57 AM ^
If you're comparing "programming" degree options at Michigan - Computer Engineering, Computer Science Engineering, and Computer Science are the players.
...and LSA Computer Science is definitely "not the most intense" relative to the other two, IMO.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:20 PM ^
College is a waste of time. I have two useless degrees. I wish I could return them.
February 10th, 2021 at 10:04 PM ^
There is truth to that. My buddy has no degree, works for UPS, and makes approximately $500,000 a year.
February 11th, 2021 at 1:33 AM ^
Thankfully, I took statistics in college, so I know not to draw any conclusion from your anecdote.
February 11th, 2021 at 8:22 AM ^
I too know someone who worked at UPS with no college degree and made $500k (seriously).
February 11th, 2021 at 11:31 AM ^
I do as well, but these are one off anecdotes and probably reflect various things about UPS and the logistics industry as a whole that are not broadly applicable and should not be used by anyone in decision making purposes. Especially since the person I know is in his 60s.
February 11th, 2021 at 11:31 AM ^
I do as well, but these are one off anecdotes and probably reflect various things about UPS and the logistics industry as a whole that are not broadly applicable and should not be used by anyone in decision making purposes. Especially since the person I know is in his 60s.
February 10th, 2021 at 11:14 PM ^
This might be a hot take, but it's your fault if college was a waste of time and your degrees are useless. You invested your money and time poorly in something that either wasn't worth it or in something that you weren't interested in or just changed your interests and that's on you. College is 100% worth it if you make the worth while decisions and treat it as an investment
February 11th, 2021 at 9:24 AM ^
Somewhere between 40 and 55% of college graduates are unemployed or underemployed (depending on your source and date of publication). Not saying a degree is useless, but when parents are looking at shelling out $100k in cash to educate a kid that isn't motivated by education, real talks need to happen to see if dropping that coin is going to be worth it.
I went to college, partied but focused, and graduated in a field that I am fortunate enough to use. Many of my friends are not so fortunate. My sister on the other hand did the "go to college because high school is over and that's what you are supposed to do", and it took her 8 years on and off to get out and is now working in a field not even remotely connected to what she learned. Not only did my parents take on the burden of paying for that, they also had a kid at home with a credit card in their name until she was 26.
Forcing a kid into a college degree isn't necessarily helping anyone. In fact, a lot of times it's money that will never be recovered.
February 11th, 2021 at 10:07 AM ^
That's why I'm saying college should be viewed as an investment. I don't feel bad for people who wasted their time/money in college and just went through the motions not knowing what they wanted to do. People need to stop acting like a victim for investing their money poorly in college
February 11th, 2021 at 10:17 AM ^
I can agree there. College is like the stock market. It's only an investment if it pays out. A lot of times it's a financial burden.
However, on the other coin, I know people that had very focused degrees in solid areas from great schools that just couldn't find a job within their field, and had to resort to different career paths due to the lack of hiring. Could have also been timing, as shortly after one of them graduated with his Masters, the 2007/2008 market crash happened.
Point being, college life can lead to great things, or it can lead to a bunch of unnecessary debt. All depends on how focused the kid is, and how lucky they are that their name gets dropped in front of the right person coming out. Kind of like March Madness. Michigan is a virtual lock to be a 1 seed. Generally, that means you are in better shape than the 2 seeds, 3 seeds, etc. However, if they land in the wrong region with the wrong mix of schools, they might have been better off as a 2 or 3 seed in another region.
It's all a crapshoot, parents and students just have to decide if they want to risk it and roll the dice, or hold them and take another path.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:28 PM ^
Personally, I would steer my child as best I could towards a major that leads to a job. Such as “accounting”, education, finance.
February 11th, 2021 at 12:06 AM ^
Funny, I'm encouraging my kids to pursue what their passions are. That's what I did, and it worked out well. I did a lot of interesting things professionally and never worried about climbing a corporate ladder. My son wants to work in baseball and I'm telling him to go for it. Why not? Pursue your dreams until and if it becomes clear they are unattainable. Then find another dream.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:32 PM ^
OP, I don't know you or your son, so I'm speaking from the back orifice here. I think the two of you should do some sort of ROI calculation. With tuition as high as it is nowadays, that seems mandatory. Will he have a chance of getting that money back? (I'm assuming you're not rich and that ROI would matter.)
February 10th, 2021 at 9:40 PM ^
It really depends on what fields that your son thinks he wants to go explore. For things like management consulting, tech employment, or finance, it really helps to have a more focused academic approach. It doesn't necessarily matter what it is, he just has to show some committment to specializing and achieving a level of proficiency, if not outright expertise, because these fields look for people that are not afraid to go deep and learn minutiae on the way to becoming credible experts. The BGS route does not signal this as much and will require him to sell himself more aggressively.
Granted, he sounds like he has no idea at this point so getting internships or apprentice opportunities are a longshot right now because employers don't want to invest resources to train young people who aren't relatively committed to a general career path. However, you son probably could get some shadowing opportunities to discover through experience what seems interesting as career paths. That could then set him up for internships which he could use to determine which path to pursue if he decides to return to college.
As far as the BGS as a program is concerned, I doubt that it is the content of the degree that is the problem. It is the negative perception of the name of the degree that is the issue. It just sounds like an unmotivated and indecisive degree path because "General Studies" implies a total lack of focus or interest in attaining any kind of expertise. Had it been called a Bachelor of Arts in Liberal Arts & Sciences, it would appear to be geared for people that are just curious and have eclectic interests or ambitions. 'General Studies' sounds like a dullard's degree because it subconsciously brings to mind too many associations with remedial education and vocational training. The 'General' part of the name sounds a lot like GED (general equivalency diploma) and brings up negative associations tied to it. LS&A should just follow the lead of one of the Ivies and rename it. At many of the Ivies you can get degrees in programs with broad focuses that are called 'social studies', 'humanities', or 'liberal arts'. Those are more respectable labels.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:41 PM ^
As long as my kids are happy with their life, self sufficient, and good people, I flat out don’t care what they do.
Be a welder or laborer, wait tables, janitor, physicist, CEO, MD PhD and run a biotech, teach kids, work in social services, flip burgers.
I just don’t care and don’t understand people who’d rather see their kids “successful” than happy. (Edit: not saying this is OPs position, just know a bunch of these type of people). We got one life. Happiness is success.
February 10th, 2021 at 10:20 PM ^
“Happiness is success.”
Ah, but see... there in lies the real question: whose happiness?
February 11th, 2021 at 11:36 AM ^
Because many, if not most, people really struggle with understanding that their children are not extensions of themselves (even if you understand it logically, it's incredibly hard to get there emotionally) and therefore have trouble externalizing them sufficiently. It's often very well meaning but at the end of the day, you really need to just let your kids figure their own shit out and stop worrying if they're going to have "good ROI" or whatever. They're autonomous human beings.
February 11th, 2021 at 2:19 PM ^
I agree with you 100%, especially this generation of parents, of which I am a member. We invest a lot in our kids -- time, money, emotions -- so when it comes time to let them go, and they don't go in the direction you've imagined for them, it can feel like you've failed.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:48 PM ^
Let him figure it out. If it's not a financial strain for you to help him, help him. If he moves back home, charge him a nominal rent. Sooner or later, it'll dawn on him that he has to apply himself in order to be happy.
February 10th, 2021 at 9:54 PM ^
I got a BGS at UMich; Best decision I ever made! I would have failed out if i'd had to take a foreign language - I got a D- in first semester French. After graduating I took a year abroad and a year prepping for the GRE, then I went to UT Austin and earned a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Decided to go into industry instead of practice and never looked back. Now I'm a senior executive at a publicly traded company with an 8-10B$ market cap.
It's not the degree you get, but what you decide to do with it.
February 10th, 2021 at 10:55 PM ^
Wait...you hated foreign language, yet spent a year abroad after graduating? Something doesn't add up here (I know, I know. Plenty of English speaking foreign nations and other nations where English is spoken widely!).
February 11th, 2021 at 10:20 AM ^
Also took the BGS path because I wanted to take a diverse range of courses.
Took a couple of mindless corporate jobs post undergrad (my degree didn't come up once) but then worked my way into an Investment Banking gig where my wide range of interests and analytical ability allowed me to thrive.
10 years later, I was promoted to Managing Director and now spend most of my time managing our family office.
My only regret is having NOT taken language courses as I now live in a Spanish speaking territory.
February 10th, 2021 at 10:08 PM ^
This is annoying to me.
I graduated with a BGS in 1982. It’s not a major, it’s a Bachelor’s Degree in General Studies.
Since then I have gone on to lead an amply fulfilling career and personal life. In case anyone is worried, I do not need help getting dressed in the morning, FFS.
What I would “mind” is ever having to defend my degree again.
February 10th, 2021 at 10:17 PM ^
The “problem” is that the world is constantly pressuring these younger than 19 year old kids to make “forever” choices on careers that they have literally no clue what the job actually is or entails at the end of that road. The VAST majority of kids aren’t equipped to make that choice, but feel pressured to do so both systematically (by school structures that make them choose majors way early) and those around them. I would gladly bet that over the long run of careers those that go the general studies or liberal arts routes end up being FAR more satisfied with the work they eventually find. It’s not where you start, it’s where you end up.
February 11th, 2021 at 8:47 AM ^
Also another problem is high schools pushing college on kids as if it's the only option that exists. I don't know if it's different now, but when I graduated 9 years ago that's how it was.
My dad talks about not knowing for sure what he wanted to do so he went for the equivalent of 6 years back in the 70s, but back then it wasn't a big deal to afford that. Classes were something stupid like $25 a credit hour at the University of Toledo compared to the $275 or whatever I paid. Anyone who does that now is going to rack up a massive bill.
Also while I did learn some very useful things in college, my current job doesn't even require a college degree, and neither did my entry level job out of college. And being in the construction industry and seeing what one can accomplish with a great work ethic and no degree, I would encourage kids to look there first before going into student debt.
Also do not just get any degree just to get a degree. That is something baby boomers will say because that's what they did, but there are nearly 2x more college graduates now compared to 40 years ago. Have him sit down, take some time to figure out what he likes to do, and go from there.
February 11th, 2021 at 9:20 AM ^
Hell, I'm 43 and still don't know what I want to do. My short-term goal is simply to pay off my college debt before my oldest starts accruing hers. It's gonna be close!
February 11th, 2021 at 9:59 AM ^
This! College cost has so outpaced inflation that it is comical and tragic. Paying significantly more for the degree and earning lower wages (adjusted for cost to earnings) than older generations makes it vital that you have a plan going in. Student loan debt is a real chokehold on life milestones (buying a home, starting a family, saving for retirement, etc.) also they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy and it has been shown that they push financially strapped debtors into repayment plans that don't significantly reduce the balance so they end up repaying considerably more than they borrow.
A degree has value, but a degree just for a degree is a luxury that current students don't have. Money can't buy happiness, but crushing debt can lead to a ton of misery.
February 11th, 2021 at 12:02 PM ^
" Student loan debt is a real chokehold on life milestones (buying a home, starting a family, saving for retirement, etc.) also they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy and it has been shown that they push financially strapped debtors into repayment plans that don't significantly reduce the balance so they end up repaying considerably more than they borrow."
The idea of it being a financial chokehold actually isn't real, to be honest. It depends how you "play the game" to be honest. The reality is, the concept of "loan forgiveness" that is being discussed now already exists. If you have federally backed loans, you frankly are going to get loan forgiveness one way or another, even under the existing structure.
February 11th, 2021 at 12:47 PM ^
Yeah, except you want to know the best part? The government will forgive your loans, but they're not going to stop giving out the loans to begin with. Makes sense, right?
February 11th, 2021 at 1:50 PM ^
Correct. That's the game.
February 11th, 2021 at 2:29 PM ^
Which highlights the problem. If you have to know how to "play the game" in regard to a federal financial institution that touches millions of people it is broken. The programs that allow for loan forgiveness are unreasonably cumbersome by design. Most are tied to public or non-profit service and even those are difficult to qualify for actual relief. There is a study on the number of people that apply and the number that are approved. I will see if I can track it down, but my memory of it was not very impressive if the program was actually intended to help people.
Obviously the fact that they will just continue to pump money to anyone that ask for it also shows how broken the system is. Higher education is a society benefit and an individual benefit. Federal student loans are important but so much is broken with the rules in regard to repayment and distribution.
February 11th, 2021 at 11:46 AM ^
The REAL problem is that people's idea of what a university should be (a high end trade school that produces guaranteed career outcomes commensurate with the cost of the degree) and what universities are (academic institutions dedicated to the accumulation and dissemination of knowledge) are not in sync. College is, as it has been from the start, a place where your kid can find themselves introduced to the writings of Virginia Woolf or the philosophy of Hegel or the ancient histories of Thucydides and think "wow, this is great and I want to just do this"... none of that has any obvious pay off, but that was never the idea. It's only in the last few decades that the idea that college needed to be practical, needed to be structured to guarantee financial success has come into play. And the twain just doesn't meet.
February 11th, 2021 at 1:56 PM ^
Yes, this. The idea that college is supposed to prepare you for a job is just not how it works.
February 10th, 2021 at 10:16 PM ^
I graduated with a BGS. Others are correct, the only difference was the language requirement. I was able to have more flexibility in my degree and ended up following an Individual Concentration Program (ICP) path.
I did go back to school for my masters in information systems and I've been a C-level exec for the past 6 years. I know friends from UofM that have some similar stories of "moderate" accomplishments at michigan but have been very successful in their careers.
Ultimately, most companies don't care as much about the degree type past your first job, unless it is more of an expert degree like engineering.
A degree, from a school like michigan, is always going to be worth more than no degree. It is up to him what he does with it from there and how he manages his career, but one step at a time.
Hope that helps a little. Wish him (and you) the best.