OT: (way too early) GoT series finale thread
Since it seems to be a slow week on the board, let's get the speculation/ranting/complaining started already about the final new episode of the show (for now, at least).
Who makes it to end alive? Who sits on the throne? What will piss off the fan base the most? How much of the board will be glad to be rid of these GoT threads?
Let's see what happens.
Perfect.
This has been the “burn all the work we’ve done to the ground” season.
The entire journey has been pointless.
If that’s what they were going for, this picture works.
They’ve rushed every major plot point the last few seasons, so I’m not expecting everything to be wrapped up in a cohesive manner.
At this point, all I care about is Jon and Ghost reuniting and living out their lives up North or Beyond the Wall.
Agreed. Things they've messed up so far IMO:
- Night King/Battle of Winterfell
I think they could've been more strategic how the Night King died and their origins before the battle.
- Daenerys's motives
I get she was really pissed off for the last episode but she basically rode around on her dragon-child fire bombing a city. Not a good look for someone who supposedly has compassion for innocent lives.
- Cersei/Jamie deaths
So fucking lame. The most hated woman in all of Westeros, who has been the same crazy bitch since season 1, dies with her incestuous brother... by rubble super quickly. WTF?
There have been some really good scenes and character developments but the show seems to have run its course.
Don’t forget Jaime’s arc
they totally fucked that up
Arya pretty much sucks too. Completely covered in plot armor so you can’t even feel tension with any scene with her in it.
The worst was when the Hound and Arya were heading into the castle, Arya to kill Cersei, and when the Hound told her to turn back, she acquiesced and thanked him. Really?
about Daenerys: She always wanted to burn her enemies throughout the show. Also if you remember her vision in Qarth, she saw the throne room burned and covered in ashes, the result of her fulfilling her "destiny".
The foreshadowing that fans say in defense of the show are literally the equivalent of Walt sitting in a diner and not tipping the waitress for 4 seasons of Breaking Bad and then all of a sudden starts mowing down Nazis and blowing up retirement homes in the last 4 episodes of the show.
That's literally Dany's arc in this show and fans are like "omg you just missed it, remember when Walt said the waitress had poor service in season 1 episode 4, that was totally foreshadowing him becoming a menacing psychopath, it's so deep!!!"
To me the fucked up by Dany killing innocents for no reason. She has never done anything remotely like that. The only justification is she isn’t literally insane. Which is pretty lame.
Isn’t the justification that Dany is turning into her father, “The Mad King”? Too quickly in my opinion, but she is now her father.
Her burning down KL is worse than anything her predecessors did including Aegon.
Wow!
meh.
After watching the finale this comment is probably the most appropriate of the day.
Sopranos-style ending, please.
Or Newhart.
No more BBQ right before going to bed, Khaleesi!
Jon Snow having trouble parking the dragon would be great.
Please, please let the spoilers be wrong somehow (even though they've been right so far). It would be maybe the worst ending of a series ever.
They did say everyone was crying after they read the script. That would be a good reason.
Yea, if I was an actor that helped build a show into a cultural phenomenon, I'd probably cry at how awful that (if true) ending is too.
Welp...
I too read all the spoilers and hoped they were wrong. This is, without a doubt, the worst ending of a popular series I could have possibly imagined.
Why the fuck does Greyworm get to decide what happens to Jon and the Imp? How about you take your foreign dickless army back to Essos before we kill every last one of you? There were only 4k Unsullied left after the battle of Winterfell. And where did all the fucking Dothraki come from? I thought they were mostly dead too. Jon, as usual, was a bitch. He should have killed her, then killed Grayworm for killing soldiers that had surrendered.
Nothing that happened made any damn sense, outside of Sansa becoming Queen in the North.
Also, having the lords of Westeros picking a new king every time one dies seems like an incredibly bad idea. Sounds like a recipe for war between the houses.
When I rewatch this show in a few years, I'm stopping at season 4, just like with The West Wing. Everything after that was shit.
I was trending this way earlier in the season, but I came back from the brink. Here is the reason - how should the show have "ended?" What could the writers have done to bring the story to a satisfying conclusion? They have a cast of highly-regarded actors who are clearly ready to wrap it up. They have no additional source material to adapt, lets face it, these guys are talented enough writers to draft some plausible scripts but they never claimed to be able write this stuff from scratch, Martin simply stopped writing the books and they had nothing to go from. Literally like 500 dangling threads, all super complicated, with very little input from the creator of the world and the characters as to how in the actual fuck he planned on bringing all of that narrative together. Chances are, he simply stopped trying, because the Game of Thrones "world" is not something that is supposed to "end," instead the stories just stop being told.
Creating a "finale" to this show was not as simple as just having Ross, Chandler and the gang move out of their apartments. The people watching shows demand they have a finale, they want closure. There are some people who watch GOT who did not need things to be tied up for them, they would have been just fine with the show ending in blood and chaos. Frankly, I would have been completely fine if "The Bells" was the series finale, but most people watching serialized TV don't want that. Like it or not, by the time Season 7 started they were catering to an audience of several different factions, some wanted Fire and Blood, but a lot of other people wanted a soap opera. Most of the critical reviews that I have read have been negative, but I know a lot of other people who just watch Game of Thrones as "one of their shows" and they all thought it was awesome.
Game of Thrones has been on for 8 years. The world we live in has changed dramatically since its inception. #MeToo and like a dozen other movements have created enormous traps for anybody and everybody producing television and movies. There was a lot of critical commentary this year that ripped into GOT for Sansa, literally just one woman telling her story, daring to say that the brutality she had endured had made her stronger. They could not continue making the show they were originally making 8 years ago. Think about some of the Kal Drogo and Dany scenes of early years. No way that goes on screen right now. No way.
This is a (very long admittedly) way of saying that I wouldn't think of those closing chapters of Thrones as a complete fiasco. It is a different show, in a different time, a very difficult balancing act for Beinhoff and Weiss. I, for one, thought "The Bells" delivered on both the spectacle, brutality, and subversion we have known the show to produce. Yes, the criticisms above about Greyworm and the clumsiness of the very final chapters last night are legit, but they did not have any non-clumsy ways to do it. But somebody was cutting onions when Drogon was trying to nudge Dany awake, and my allergies were certainly acting up when Jon was saying goodbye to his sisters. And what a great scene between Tyrion and Jon about Dany and the nature of power.
I have watched your posts go from kind of "meh" as to the final season to downright dismissive and angry like the one above, and I know a lot of people feel that way, but I don't think the ending will seem like a catastrophe after a couple of years, and I bet you a beer you watch all of it again, season 8 included.
And you'll probably win that bet.
I do hope that you're wrong in the long run regarding the politics of the moment dictating what is an is not acceptable entertainment, because if the "nothing is funny" crowd is allowed to set the agenda all we're going to be left with is superhero movies and shitty cartoons. Then again, no way in hell Blazing Saddles or most of the other great movies from the past would be made today, so you're probably right.
I wasn't looking for a storybook ending, just something that made a bit more sense given the history of the characters involved and the world they live in. Most of the cast acted against their previously established patterns this season (and last) to move the story forward.
I would have been fine with the Night King winning. Or Dany not burning KL to the ground, but later killing Jon because of the threat he posed. Or the two of them marrying and ruling together. Littlefinger should have made it to the end, as should Varys.
Bran ending up on the Iron Throne just seems like a ridiculous outcome. Unless he turns out to be an evil bastard that manipulated all of the events to get himself there. Maybe that's why he's going to look for Drogon?
Unless he turns out to be an evil bastard that manipulated all of the events to get himself there.
Exactly, but nothing has been said or done to lead anyone to the belief that he was the mastermind behind everything the whole time. If that's what you want to believe, you have to just imagine it that way without anything of substance ever hinting onscreen that that's the case. And in a final season when nothing mattered and nothing tied together, it's a stretch of all stretches to arrive at Bran the brilliant manipulator, and not take the show at it's face value of: "Bran seems like a nice guy, let's make him King."
Bleh.
I know you and I have had some rough exchanges in the past, not trying to start shit.
I did just want to say in response to this post that I actually do think there may have been some foreshadowing that Bran has been manipulating everybody this season to get to this outcome. Arguably, the only reason that Daenarys and Jon did not just wreck Cersei, spare her subjects, and live happily ever after together as Queen and King-type-substance is because Bran told Sam about Jon's lineage.
We don't know what he was up to during the Battle of Winterfell when he warged right before all of the snow and mist came and neutralized the dragons. He had a chance to say "Hell no man are you crazy" to Jon before he spilled the beans about his lineage to Sansa and Arya but instead just shrugged when he knew Jon was a complete dumbass and would absolutely tell them. Shit, all Dany needed was some lovin before they went to Kings Landing and she probably would have spared the citizens but Jon could not even do that because she was his aunt.
If you look at if from that perspective it begins to look a bit more like it was an intentional manipulated outcome. And ever last night he said "what did you think I came all this way for."
Fair. I just haven't seen anything the last two seasons that convinces me this show runs that subliminal. If you want to interpret sporadic instances that maybe Bran was pulling the strings the entire time, I can't tell you you're wrong. It just seems to me that everything in this show's history played out at face value. You have to dive deep into the unseen, unexplained and pretty much make stuff up to arrive at that theory, which doesn't seem to be the point of the show. They're supposed to tell us the story.
Look at Jon's Targaryen reveal. They didn't yada-yada that. They dropped hints for years and then when the time came, they hit us in the face with a frying pan. They dragged it out over a season and laid it out in specific detail who he is, where he's from, etc. That's how this show has worked.
"What did you think I came all this way for?" Well, to accept his role as king, I guess? But the show never fully explained what he can see, what he's doing. How he knew he'd be king or when he learned. Where'd he fly off to during the Battle of Winterfell? I have no idea and the only hint they show is that he was flying around tracking the Night King. If you don't want to take that at face value, you can make up anything.
If the kid who was pushed from a window in episode 1 has been orchestrating this entire charade for 8 seasons just to park his butt in the captain's chair, that's diabolical. You've got to give one single hint that that was the case because it's bombshell worthy. They never did, which is not in line with how they've operated. And that makes me believe they just pulled it out of their ass.
I agree with you to the extent that pretty much everything this season, Bran's arc included, was clearly just pulled out of their ass. I am just saying that I think it had been foreshadowed this season. Frankly, I think that they left everything last season as open ended as humanly possible because they literally had no idea how they were going to end the show.
After the Red and Purple Weddings, and the Ramsay Snow arc, I think Jon's ancestry was the last bit of anything they had up their sleeve, and that they were completely winging it from there. They had the Night King stuff to rely on to make a half of a season out of, but the series was not going to end with everybody dying to the Army of the Dead so that was basically a DOA red herring. That is mostly the reason that I think it took so long to make the 8th season, not merely the "production" time and costs, but because they seriously did not have the first damn clue how to end the show and it probably took them a year to even write the damn thing.
I don't think it was a complete failure, mind you, but it was a slap-dash affair to be sure.
Agree 100% across the board. It had been foreshadowed in hindsight, but they made every bit of Bran dialogue so damned cryptic that it was impossible to get any greater meaning out of anything he said. Then he's crowned and you have to look back and think, is that what Bran meant when he said, "Maybe..."?
Everything else is spot on. It didn't ruin the series for me, but seasons 7 & 8 were so loose it felt like they were losing control. I rolled with a lot of the plot holes for the greater good and tried to stay above the complaining, just hoping they could stick the landing and all would be forgiven. Unfortunately, I feel like they fumbled the ending as well which doesn't help all of the nonsense I was trying to let go. Oh well.
Yeah, they could have ended the show 50 different ways that would been more satisfying.
As it is, I'm choosing to believe that since the iron throne was destroyed they chose Bran because he came with his own chair.
(chuckle) *snort*
The politics of the time "dictating what is entertainment" portion of what you wrote in both scary and enlightening at the same time. Game of Thrones really pushed a lot of envelopes in a lot of different ways and is certainly culturally significant for that reason.
On one hand, your post rings true. If we allow a certain "them" do dictate what can and cannot be considered "entertainment" or what should or should not be produced, then freedom of expression does really lose its battle. On the other hand, what to make of it when what the masses see as "entertainment" is so exceptionally distasteful that an objective observer would question how the culture arrived at the point where such material was watched by millions for leisure.
Think back to the scene where Joffrey was shown using a prostitute for target practice with his cross-bow during Littlefinger's "chaos" speech. Certainly that scene compounded Joffrey's cruelty, but that had been thoroughly established already. And while most would argue that the scene was just "part of the story," the truth is that the content of the scene excited the viewers at that moment. It was a special kind of twisted, delivered to excite, and in that, I think it is fair to ask if it was an example of a culture losing its way. Was Game of Thrones that ugly because it was appealing to a culture that had become that ugly? And were the growing complaints with regard to its content as the years went on more evidence of a culture trying to heal than it was of one that had become "too soft."
In this regard, GOT holds a special place in entertainment history. It is arguably the best show ever produced, and also a kind of sick meditation on what we want to see as "entertainment," and why. And it is arguably the former because it is the ladder, not in spite of it.
Greyworm got to decide because they held King's Landing and had Jon in captivity. Yes, there were lots of Northmen and the entire Kingdom outside the walls that could have taken the Unsullied but 1) they probably would have killed Jon before he was rescued. It's was a hostage situation. Even if you have a kidnapper surrounded, there's a reason you don't just go in and start shooting up the place. You negotiate. That's what they did. And perhaps more importantly, 2) everyone that remained was tired of war. They were all of the opinion that killing a bunch of people was not worth one life. They had all advocated diplomacy throughout the series (except maybe Sansa, but I'm sure Tyrion and Davos convinced her that diplomacy was the best option here).
Most of the Dothraki were killed in the war for Winterfell but they started as thousands. Even if 5% remained (and there were a bunch that retreated from the army of the dead), that left hundreds. And that's how many we saw last night.
Sounds like a recipe for war between the houses? You mean more war than had been happening? The idea that all you have to do is kill the current king to be installed as the new king was a recipe for war. They're trying something that they believe will be better and they're all on the same page about it so that's the important thing. Any form of governance is only as good as the belief in it. And even Tyrion admitted it's an experiment when he said "check back in 10 years."
It worked out that I am going to see Avengers Endgame this afternoon and the last GoT tonight. I fully expect to go to sleep dissapointed and angry about both, yet watching them anyway.
Update: After watching both, I believe Endgame was better than expected but not quite amazing. The GoT finale was underwhelming.
You will only be disappointed by Endgame if:
1) You don’t like superhero movies at all. Or:
2) You have grossly unrealistic, and quite frankly unfair expectations.
The consensus by almost every critic out there is that Endgame was a phenomenal movie and wrapped up everything extremely well. It’s made 2.5 billion for a reason, and is going to blow Avatar out of the water by the time this is all said and done.
I actually followed some of the comics back in the day and know what the story is "supposed" to be. I dislike when movies change the storylines unnecessarily - I wouldn't call that being unrealistic. They can still make absurd amounts of money either way.
Endgame is a massive load of fan service for a franchise with a ton of fans. Of course its going to be a mega hit. Especially as the sheer amount of attention and the lack of any other notable releases in like a 2 week window after it will drive plenty of casual moviegoers to watch it as well.
I watched it as a non-fan, I have seen maybe a half dozen of the other MCU movies, and thought it was okay but certainly not without flaws. The people involved clearly are very competent, but if you are not deeply invested in the characters not all of the quests to gather the stones are all that memorable or riveting.
I also still dont know the point of either Thor and Cpt Marvel in this movie either. The finale was very well done and enjoyable though. All in all, its solid enough and certainly not the disaster that GoT S8 appears to be.
Endgame Spoiler
I'm not a comic fan but basically recasting Thor as The Big Lebowski was absurd. I don't know what to say about what the did with his character. How the he'll is someone else able to wield his hammer?
For some odd reason, I thought Captain Marvel was going to have a role in this movie.
I have to disagree. I really liked what they did with Thor and thought it made him much more 'human' ; he took his failure to heart...
- On his way back north, Tormund Giantsbane finds himself lost with Ghost and some of the other freefolk on a desert island.
- Tyrion Lannister, Ser Davos Seaworth, Ser Brienne of Tarth and Lord Gendry Baratheon are imprisoned in Latham, Massachusetts for violating the local Good Samaritan Law.
- Samwell Tarly, Gilly and young Sam return to the Citadel. As Sam tries to return the books he’d taken, he’s told that they’re long overdue and that he’ll have to pay a substantial fine.
- Ned Stark returns home from having spent a long day hunting. He’s greeted by his wife Catelyn who has been watching their son Robb playing on the floor with a snow globe that has inside a map of a land called Westeros.
- Daenerys wakes up in bed next to Bob Newhart who tells her that he just had the strangest dream.
- Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen sits alone in a pub as Hot Pie takes his order of fried onion rings. Sansa Stark walks in alone to greet him, followed soon by Brandon Stark who miraculously has regained his ability to walk. Outside the pub, Arya Stark has trouble getting her horse to stop so that she can hitch it to a post. Arya finally enters the pub and sits down with her family as they all toast to remembering the good times. Bronn enters the pub with his crossbow and sits at the bar until he gets up and walks past the Starks’ table into a back room. The screen goes black.
^This is excellent.
My way-out-there, sort-of-predictions: Jon and Grey Worm kill each other. While that’s going on, Arya kills Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Ruler of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Realm, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea. (pause for breath) Maybe Drogon kills Arya, but too late for saving Daenerys-of-the-many-titles.
Tyrion the Halfman is finally revealed to be half Targaryen when he gets Drogon to calm down. Sansa ends up ruling; whod’a thunk it back in Season One? Brienne of Tarth becomes head of the Queensguard. Bran sits in his chair and occasionally makes Sibylline utterances that have everyone else saying “Huh?” Exeunt omnes.
Half of the fanbase will complain about too little action because of speechifying among the characters, while the other half complains about too little character development because of all the action. In another configuration, half of the fanbase will blame the directors for straying from the direction that was set by GRRM's storyline, while the other half blames GRRM for being too lazy to finish writing his books.
Here on mgoblog, the phrase "valar morghulis" will appear in 1,362 threads complaining about the search for the new basketball head coach, or complaining about those who complain about the search. After the hire is announced, somebody compares the new head coach to Gendry Baratheon, first of his name, new lord of Storm's End--a nice enough sort of chap who's had no relevant leadership experience that would justify bestowing the new title upon him. At some point in season one of the new basketball era, someone will blame the AD for the hire, quoting queen Cersei: "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die." And some will mock the ignorance of others by using some variant of Ygritte the wildling's favorite line, "You know nothing, Jon Snow."
So, you're really trying to say that Rick Pitino is the Night King?
Someone should buy a t-shirt with the Cersei quote for Ward Manual.
that winter bad guy, the one that died a couple of weeks ago, well, he comes back to life...
(no, i have never seen the show)
I had never seen the show until a month ago. Since then I’ve binge watched the series, catching up yesterday so I could watch the finale tonight. Believe me, it’s worth it. I know you’re busy on the farm and with the fam, but you should watch it.
I agree. I resisted for a long time (too violent, too much gratuitous nudity -- a woman's perspective), but then I gave in. I'm going to try and read the books this summer.
thank you adam and wendy. i can't imagine having that much disposable time available to me at this point in my life but i bet i'd enjoy it if/when that time comes available. historically we don't have TV now and won't get it except for college football season, so i'll get by on the mentions you all make here.
You realize you never get to strut around and say “Well Ive never even watched an episode” Oh wait shows over youve had the best of all worlds.