OT sorta: California to debate banning tackle football for 12 and under
As it is said, what happens in CA tends to spread to the rest of the country. There is no doubt that tackle football is inherently bad for one’s health, but should politicians make this decision for us?
Heightened concern over concussions and the growing popularity of flag football are driving the effort to impose the ban, which opponents say would take away the ability for parents to decide their children’s activities, put California youth players behind those in other states and cut off some children from a source of exercise and an important after-school activity.
But advocates say the bill will protect kids from the risk of brain damage, which studies have shown increases the longer a person plays tackle football. And they note children can still enjoy the sport through flag football, which is becoming more popular and even has support from the NFL.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:11 PM ^
also kids don't love football in a vacuum. They love it in a culture that glorifies it and when they have parents who encourage it.
it is not clear to me that kids wouldn't love soccer or basketball in the same way if that was the sport they were the most frequently exposed to via media and if it had the same reputation for social clout in school, etc.
Baseball participation has fallen off a cliff as it has declined in popularity, it used to be unthinkable that a 10 year old boy would want to do anything other than pitch or play centerfield. The same thing will happen to football with declining social pressure
January 11th, 2024 at 1:49 PM ^
I don't know. Baseball has also declined as a spectator sport, especially on TV. OTOH, the NFL continues to draw absolutely massive TV ratings. A lot of kids still dream of being the next Brady or Mahomes.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:22 AM ^
Maybe they should. But it makes too much money.
Kids skulls are thinner also.
And good to avoid multiple hits.
And those situations where one child is built like an 18 year old mauling another child built like a 6 year old.
Give them more time to grow into their bodies.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:06 AM ^
that is the basis, and yes, they probably should. that's hyperbolic, of course, but there's a grain of truth to it.
i absolutely love love love football, but we as a society have just decided that we're okay with the long-term harm done to the people that play it...despite study after study after study that show that the longer you play, the more you damage your brain. if that was in doubt 20 years ago (and it kinda was), it isn't any longer.
i just don't think there's a real downside here.
January 11th, 2024 at 11:07 AM ^
This was my question too. Obviously, the research is plentiful concerning concussion risk in general. But is there data regarding youth football? I would think the risk is much lower--smaller bodies, less speed, etc.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:03 PM ^
I mean, the game needs to continue evolving to address the problem. Just like it evolved from rugby to its present form to address safety concerns in the first place
January 11th, 2024 at 7:56 AM ^
Makes sense, in the same way that hockey doesn’t allow contact until U15. Youth football doesn’t have a nationwide governing body, so there isn’t anyone to make a decision like that (like hockey does).
Now, that said, if football is going to go this route (flag for younger kids) the game is going to HAVE TO figure out a way for younger kids who aren’t the throwing and catching type to have a place in that game. As it stands now, there is a serious inclusion issue there that is going to have a long term impact on interest from kids who aren’t going to excel in the way that the flag/7on7 game is played.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:25 AM ^
True. I got to coach two seasons of flag. Not a lot of the lineman type playing. There were a few though. One kid was a Nebraska fan. Really nice family who were just down on the team. It was right at the end of the frost era I think.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:22 AM ^
Here's an idea -- why not eliminate the neutral zone and have the linemen start each play with their hands on each other's chestplates?
There's no gap or zone concepts but U15s aren't going to master footwork anyway. On the upside, no head collisions, no momentum build-up. It's basically a crude form of sumo, where if you pancake your guy you can make a run at the QB.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:23 AM ^
Now, that said, if football is going to go this route (flag for younger kids) the game is going to HAVE TO figure out a way for younger kids who aren’t the throwing and catching type to have a place in that game. As it stands now, there is a serious inclusion issue there that is going to have a long term impact on interest from kids who aren’t going to excel in the way that the flag/7on7 game is played.
Padded flag might be the solution.
In my area, that is one of the options for younger kids.
Full pads, flag football. No tackling.
7v7. 3 linemen, 1 QB, the other 3 can be any combination of WR/TE/HB.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:44 AM ^
The parallel to no hitting in hockey is spot on. It’s been that way for decades and no one is complaining about hockey players being soft or USA hockey overstepping parental bounds.
January 11th, 2024 at 10:04 AM ^
I came here to say the same exact thing. Football would benefit from a governing body like USA hockey or MAHA. Don’t always agree with them but them moving checking from Peewees to Bantams was correct.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:03 AM ^
I think the core issue is quality coaching and technique.
There seem to be two sports where a player’s head can be involved in game action - football and soccer. In both - there seems to be an appropriate age - and, though a player’s head shouldn’t be involved intentionally during contact in football - incidental contact is difficult to avoid / limit.
I believe the USSF (US Soccer Federation) has guidelines regarding the age in introduce / teach players to head the ball - a lot of it is technique. In tackle football, it’s technique too.
So, what’s at the core? At a younger age, in many sports, parents are coaches. The question is - what knowledge of proper technique do most youth coaches possess. Do these bodies require that youth coaches gain a certification in the sport they coach?
Knowledgeable coaches can teach proper technique from “day one” - and that’s valuable for the children. So, waiting to the age of 12 for tackle football is fine with me.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:19 AM ^
There seem to be two sports where a player’s head can be involved in game action - football and soccer.
Football and hockey are better analogs.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:26 AM ^
Hockey is a sport that faces a similar issue - with regards to knowledgeable coaches vs wannabe dads. But, IMO, the head isn’t involved in play as much in hockey as it is in football and soccer.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:46 AM ^
You can’t mandate quality coaches. As a parent it’s hard to know who is a quality coach and who isn’t when you’re at tryouts. It takes at least a season and at that point the damage may be done.
And emphasizing proper technique has been at the forefront of youth coaching for years now. It’s not the answer. Another solution is needed.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:03 AM ^
It's a good idea but not one that should be forced on people. I have no problem with laws protecting others from a person's bad decisions, e.g. drunk driving, but my neighbor's kid playing tackle football doesn't effect me.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:11 AM ^
Isn't this protecting a 10 year old from someone else's bad decision? I'm pretty sure 10 years don't understand the long term consequences.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:17 AM ^
Exactly. Especially in the youth leagues where the coaches are (more often than not) some kid’s dad who’s trying to make his kid a star.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:38 AM ^
Man, I hear what you're saying, but this slope gets slippery real fast. I personally don't think that kids under 12 should be playing tackle football, so this rule makes a lot of sense to me. But I don't know that I want the government to get to decide what activities are and are not safe enough for kids.
Humankind has a long history of parents raising their kids and being responsible for them. I understand that it's easy to look around and think that other parents are doing a shit job. But I sure as hell don't think the government can make better decisions about raising MY kid than I can, and I'm guessing I'm not alone in that feeling.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:44 AM ^
Can't wait to read your reasoning for why limiting the sale of tobacco to people over 18 is stealing parental rights.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:48 AM ^
Yep, might as well lock the thread now. This is going to get really dumb really fast.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:09 AM ^
To be fair, this is where it was going from the jump.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:45 AM ^
I don't think it is at all unless their parent is standing at the counter with them. And I don't think there shouldn't be any rules at all. But that's a discussion for a different forum.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:55 AM ^
Seems like in this case they could though. Spare me the parental rights crap.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:08 AM ^
I am a big fan of this. As someone who played soccer forever, and then football... my kids won't be playing tackle football.
I'm also in favor of banning heading in soccer until at least age 12 as well.
I still remember being in middle school and practicing headers, and complaining that my head hurt and was ringing and feeling fuzzy.
All those impacts add up, and for a developing brain it's no bueno
January 11th, 2024 at 8:15 AM ^
I prefer kids get taught proper tackling technique at the youngest ages. The kids are "spongier" along with being smaller so there's less likelihood that they can injure each other.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:25 AM ^
I agree, but I also suspect a lot of them don't learn the best techniques at this age due to a combination of attention span of your average 9-year-old, time allotment, and quality of instruction. I'd like to think a 12-yesr-old can pick up good form reasonably quickly
January 11th, 2024 at 8:30 AM ^
My kid's team spent a lot of time on proper tackling both in and out of pads, but I'm sure people's mileage may vary.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:41 AM ^
Yeah teaching proper and safe tackling techniques has been in place for years now. If that was the solution then we’d be seeing the results by now. Idk if this law is the solution, but when it comes to kids brains I get why they are trying something different. The current solution of “everyone tackle better” isn’t working.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:46 AM ^
This is a possible unforseen side effect. If kids aren't practicing tackling, then when they finally get into tackle football, when they're bigger and stronger, they may cause more head injuries from poor technique.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:56 AM ^
You’re honestly trying to tell us that proper tackling techniques are solidified before the age of 12? Give me a break.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:07 AM ^
Have you ever had a 10 year old play tackle and go to practice 3-4 times a week for two hours a pop and see how much time these coaches spend working with them on how to play football correctly and safely? Have you seen how kids play when they've been in tackle for even just a year compared to the kids who don't know anything about it?
Obviously you haven't.
January 11th, 2024 at 11:32 AM ^
Im with you on this HB. People think we are still in the 80s/90s where kids are launching with helmets as a way to tackle. It just isnt the case anymore. The real problem (as I saw from last year) is when you got a team of 11 year old Shaquille O'Neals vs your team of normal sized 11 year olds and the other coach is encouraging head hunting. That is where I see the problem. We have kids with Xs that are over a certain weight and they are on the oline/dline only and no special teams. Its still dangerous so Im on the fence of course. My kid is the skinniest DE youve ever seen so he isnt being targeted like a RB or QB. I may feel different if he took hits like our RBs do.
January 11th, 2024 at 1:22 PM ^
My son also plays in a league that limits who can run the ball based on weight etc. They also spend a lot of time teaching technique. This was an Under 11 league.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:23 AM ^
I get both sides of the argument, as football is a uniquely physical sport at a young age but there are injuries outside of concussions kids can suffer from (I remember multiple young women in my HS tearing their ACLs and developing arthritis while playing soccer over the years, for example) while playing flag football.
From a practical standpoint I do wonder if this will change how kids develop certain skills. Not that pee wee football is full of complex formations but from games I have seen and remember playing they tended to be more ground based because it was more about physically stopping guys.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:01 AM ^
Yeah, my view is if there are two sides to the argument, then let parents and kids decide. I do not like the idea of an across the board government imposed ban. I feel like i learned toughness by playing tackle football in elementary school. I learned to overcome my fear of getting hit and to play through some level of pain and discomfort. And in my experience, football did not become too violent until I was older than 12.
January 11th, 2024 at 10:23 AM ^
Any argument has two sides; we could argue about whether 12-and-unders should be able to drink alcohol or not, for instance. Whether parents can simply decide that their children won't get an education, for another.
The reasoning that supports a governmental ban on these types of issues is that a typical parent does not have enough information on which to make a rational decision for their child. One can certainly argue this in the case of tackle football and CTE.
There can be a separate argument about whether age 13 is the appropriate age for allowing tackle football, but that is another issue about which parents lack the knowledge to weigh in.
January 12th, 2024 at 8:22 AM ^
I understand the reasoning. I do not agree in this context. That does not mean that i never think government should ever pass any law to protect children. But i played tackle football growing up (until i was about 13) and valued it greatly. I think that a complete government ban is overreach.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:54 PM ^
So how do you feel about government deciding which books to ban? Or which medical treatments someone can receive?
January 12th, 2024 at 8:19 AM ^
You are trying hard to make this discussion devolve into something it is not and making baseless assumptions about my political beliefs. My comment was about banning tackle football for kids. If you want to have discussions about other things, you should go somewhere else.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:25 AM ^
I think it's a very good idea. My district currently has this same rule and the football program is actually doing very well considering our size (on the cusp of switching to 8 man). But the guy that runs the elementary rec sports in my district wants tackle football all the way down to first grade. Seems ridiculous to me.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:27 AM ^
And all males will be neutered. That is all.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:49 AM ^
So anyone who didn’t play tackle football is neutered?
January 11th, 2024 at 3:19 PM ^
Bet you are fun at parties. Do you seriously think I was being serious? Seriously?
January 11th, 2024 at 8:38 AM ^
As a long time High School football coach, I agree with this proposal. There is no reason for kids as young as 7 or 8 to be playing tackle. I've seen videos of teams (unfortunately locally) doing tackling drills that are outlawed by the MHSAA in youth football. Often times kids learn horrible habits and honestly some kids who are later developers physically may be turned off to the sport entirely because their irresponsible coach decided to have the 100 lb 9 year old do an Oklahoma drill vs a 45 lb kid.
Middle School is an appropriate time to start tackle football (the case I hold for my kids already). If you want your son to learn the skills to be a good tackler in the future: put them in wrestling. They'll be a far better tackler when they start playing football than someone who played tackle youth since 7 years old.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:51 AM ^
My dad and his 2 brothers were all "all area" football players in Royal Oak (1 was all state) and my dad didnt want us to play until HS, my oldest brother hurt his back pretty bad in 6th grade making a "bad form" tackle...so maybe this isnt as bad to me as it seemed upon reading this...
January 11th, 2024 at 8:47 AM ^
Ehhhh....I edited and decided to sit this one out....no politics in online message boards is a good thing.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:50 AM ^
My short answer is no. Recently having coached 3 years of under 12 pop Warner football, i have seen a tackle or hit that causes an injury that would be considered more severe than playing other sports than football.
our politicians have much bigger problems to solve than restricting pop Warner or tackle football
January 11th, 2024 at 9:50 AM ^
The politicians are trying to protect children from brain injuries. I’d argue there is no bigger problem to solve.