OT-Game of Thrones S6 E9: Battle of the Bastards
Upvoted for second paragraph. As for the first: Jon has never been a great battle tactitian. In fact, has he ever really been in a true battle? He was at the massacre at Hardhome, he held the Wall, but he's never attacked a castle/army in the open field. Why would we expect to see him outsmart Ramsey? Especially when it's in his character to react emotionally. He's already somewhat lost care of his own life, so it's not out of character for him to be reckless.
between expecting him to be a great commander and expecting him to not end up riding solo into the entire enemy force. Let's face it, they pretty much wrote him as the stupidest commander in the history of humanity. He makes Custer look like a genius. Of course, they wrote his brother Rickon as an idiot too, because who in their right mind, when you have someone shooting arrows at you from 100 yards away, continues to run in a f***ing straight line?
The episode was a visual specticle, but writing the Stark boys as mentally deficient ijits makes me wonder a lot about the people writing the show.
Considering Rickon is his brother, Ramsey is shooting arrows at him, and his whole damn strategy was based upon Ramsey's army attacking first, it makes sense that Jon's first reaction would be to go out alone and try to save Rickon. His other two options are untenable: if he does nothing, he is letting his own brother die. That's not in his blood, even if he knows that Sansa warned him that Ramsey would kill Rickon and he's as good as dead. The other option would be to charge as an army. That immediately throws his entire strategy out the window.
I thought it was interesting. Up until that point, it felt as if Jon could do no wrong. Well, it's clear he doesn't always know what he's doing. Not to mention, his head has been all sorts of effed up ever since being resurrected. It was a bit of a shock to see him being so easily and soundly defeated like that (until they got saved by the Vale), but it makes sense why it could happen given recent events.
His original plan was decent, but seeing Rickon caused him to go full lizard brain and flip out. It seems plausible to me that he could lose a lot of self-control after being revived from the dead.
Would have made more sense for Jon to get wounded slightly and his horse killed and had Ramsay's cavalry bearing down on him, forcing Tormund to charge. Would only have been a minor flip from what actually happened, and more believable n
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I had NO problem with him trying to GET his brother. The problem I had is that as soon as his brother was dead, he needed to either grab his body and ride back, or just leave him and ride back. Either woudl have been fine. To go all kamikaze and just charge into a several thousand-man army was the height of stupidity and selfishness, and pretty much goes against anything that we have ever known about Jon Snow.
IMO is was done strictly so they could have that deus ex machina moment where the horses ride past him at the last second to save him. So, they made their main character a complete idiot (and kind of a jerk--his troops were probably going to get slaughtered if he goes down like that) just so they can cue up a cool moment in their episode. I mean, I get it, it was a cool visual moment, but stuff like that kind of annoys me.
They couldn't get away with silly stuff like that nearly as easily when the books were already written.
Just after his Rickon was killed, Jon Snow went forward to avaoid the hail of arrows that Bolton's archers launched at him. Could he instead have gone backward to dodge 'em? I don't know.
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Very surprised we didn't see any Manderly action; but next week's preview (Lannisters meeting the Freys) gives me hope that we will still get to see the Fat Lord.
Anyway, as for the episode: 10/10 would bang.
as much as you can criticize jon for doing what ramsey wanted in running at the bolton army and getting bailed out in the nick of time by his cavalry... ramsay is making a big gamble that he will be able to kill rickon, incense jon to attack them on a suicide mission. so it works both ways. yea the episode was predictable but it was still effing awesome.
i didnt recognize the banner when it showed up, but man once the knights of the vail finally showed up and got in on the side of those bolton pike men, they seriously mowed those fuckers down
the end of ramsay was great, he kept acting like he was in control but kept getting trumped at each of his successive moves, from battle, to hiding behind the gates, to trying to kill jon with just a longbow, right up until the dogs. that still was brutal to watch but satisfying.
So, great episode and all that. But it still left me disappointed. I guess everything ended how I wanted and expected, and yet I don't like the way they got there.
1. Would have much rather seen Yara and Theon save the day with their ships than have Dany use the Deus ex dragons. The whole thing was too obvious/annoying. She uses the dragons to save the day? Wow, interesting character/plot development. Dany is such an annoying character anyway. I'm not sure if they're setting her up as a great hero or a great villian. She never seems to learn any lessons, from experience or when people tell her what a madman her father was. She always seems to come up with insane plans (Let's just raze three cities to the ground. That's not crazy or anything), only to be talked out of it by better characters. Her whole arc seems to be "I'm right, because dragons." And then are we supposed to feel triumphant because the people she's defeating are bigger assholes?
2. Happy house Stark won, hate the way it happened. They really made Jon look like a great warrior but completely incompetent leader. The Vale knights was also way too obvious. Would have definitely preferred to see the other houses that turned down Jon have a change of heart and ride in for the save, with a stirring "King in the North" chant to end the episode. Hell, House Reed could have come in to save the day with Howland Reed learning his best friends son (or R+L=J) was fighting to retake Winterfell. Felt like it could have been a good wrap up to the Stark thread (for this season) and instead they used it as an obvious set up for some Littlefinger antics.
3. Not that this is a huge negative, but it feels like the showrunners have decided on some "girl power" theme, like they were really stung by the thought that many of the female characters have been treated poorly in the past. Dany is powerful, Yara is the badass, Arya is a killer, they even made Sansa seem like a better leader and tactician than Jon. Not really a complaint, just something I really noticed over the last couple episodes.
As an aside, I think people blaming GRRM for anything this season, or indeed much of the misery of the series are off base. This season is basically entirely the showrunners. And even a good percentage of the deaths throught the series dont/haven't yet happened in the books (Stannis, the blackfish, Robb's wife etc.)
2. Yes Jon is a good warrior and not a great leader. He's inexperienced at leading an army.
Your complaints are silly.
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The only part of girl power that may not be a wholly Martin invention is Sansa's emergence as the Queen of the North. But even that is likely one of the primary stories told in Winds of Winter.
The idea that this is all the "showrunners" (producers) is just wrong. This season is Winds of Winter, a book which is at least half complete, just unfinished -- the ending and cliffhangers are known to the producers.
For me, the strangest thing about this season is the abandonment of Bran and the Tower of Joy. I'm going to guess that also follows the book -- that Bran has not yet seen the truth of that at the end of Winds of Winter.
There were two fairly obvious foreshadows that jumped out at me in this episode. One was Tyrion telling Dany about the wildfire under King's Landing. We shouldn't have to wait long for that reminder to bear fruit. But the other was the Wildling leader's line about Jon Snow not being a king. We'll see about that, but at this point it seems possible that we, the audience, are going to learn the truth at the same time as Jon Snow himself. If they wanted us to know already, we would know already.
I picked up on that as well. That's pretty much a done deal for me. Last week Qyburn is telling Cersei that his little kid spies confirmed what they were looking to confirm... and in the very next scene Jamie is explaining to Ed Tully how his sister would burn entire cities to the ground for her children. Follow that up with Tyrion's oral diagram, and they're practically hitting us over the head with it.
Uhhhhh.... why do you think GRRM doesnt empower female characters in the books? GRRM created Arya, Brienne, Dany, Cat, Maege Mormont, Arianne Martell, the Sand Snakes, Asha (Yara), Sansa. Even Jaime's aunt in the Riverlands is a badass.
about all the fauxrage on the internet when Sansa was "raped"? People refusing to watch the show, websites refusing to cover it, etc.
And I never said that GRRM doesn't empower his female characters. Many, if not most, of the women in GoT are pretty baddass and just as ruthless as the men (eg, The Queen of Thornes).
This season just seems, different. I can't really put my finger on it, but the show seems to be pandering to the people watching it.
I guess my point would be that the ascention to power of female characters has been in the works since day 1 for anyone paying attention. I think labeling that inevitable ascention as a "response to PC faux outrage" is lazy. Why can't we just give the benefit of the doubt to the writers that they are simply writing the story they have always been trying to write? In fact, I'm sure all these major plotlines were already laid out by the time the Sansa rape was aired, so it's highly unlikely that anything happening now was effected by response to an episode last season.
We haven't seen much rapey scenes this season because the storylines and the locales haven't really called for it. We did see Ramsay feed a newborn kid to dogs... is that pandering to people? They've left Tower of Joy hanging until (hopefully) the season finale... is that pandering to people?
Also, uhhh..... It's not like the show's job is to torture the audience. Sure, some of the most amazing and memorable episodes have been immensely negative for the protagonists (Red Wedding, Baelor, Hodor); there's also been some wins for the protagonists along the way (Joffrey and Tywin's deaths, last night).
I think part of Martin's genius was hiding the true protagonists (Jon and Dany) for so long. While Dany was a little obvious from day 1, it wasn't until probably half way through STORM that it was clear the story was Jon's story. However, once that's clear, it's not like GRRM is gonna kill off Jon just because he can't have a "normal story."
As I have not read the books. Perhaps it was Martin's intent for the characters to evolve the way they have this season, none of us know. What I do know is that the show is markedly different this season and part of the changes seem to center around a sort of "look, we don't really hate women, look how awesome they are now", storyline.
I liked the show better when the bad guy's won and people suffered. Not that I'm a sadist (ok maybe a little), but it was just so different than what we're used to seeing in TV and movies that I found it very compelling.
A standard fantasy good v's evil story isn't nearly as interesting to me.
That's all fair. I do think the show had plenty of "look at the awesome women" moments prior to now and prior to season 4ish where there show really blew up in general populace. I think they got overlooked by the casual watcher because HBO BOOBS RAPE. To list a few:
- Dany taking Astapor
- Dany locking whatshisname into that bank vault to die
- Ros climbing the Whore-Ladder into a power position
- Shae ending up making power moves
- Cersei (though, more interestingly, started out smart and powerful and then we watched her downfall)
- Brienne being established as one of the best warriors out there in season 2 (defeating Loras in a melee or whatever)
- Everything Arya
- Meera Reed
As far as standard "good vs evil," my take has always been this: I don't think it's standard at all. Like you and like many, that's what makes it so interesting. But there's gotta be some balance and some wins for the protagonist along the way, right? Without that, I think it devolves into the opposite problem: breaking norms just to break them.
It did seem like that for while, starting when Ned lost his head and going all the way through the next couple seasons.
To me, the bad guys winning all the time was good for a little while, as it was so different, but it has become kind of it's own trope in a way. I think a good story like this can have some wins for the bad guys and some wins for the good guys. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I would hate this show to be 8 seasons of the bad guy winning, I was already sick of that in the 4th season. At some point, the good guys can get wins, and it feels like these wins are much needed and deserved. The constant doom and gloom was taking me out of the story. I mean really, does anyone want to watch the Boltons, the Freys, and Cersei ultimately fight the white walkers. Hell no, that would be the most pointless battle ever. It sounds like a satisfying end for you would be the White Walkers winning.
That would be a fine ending. But I'm a big Tarantino fan, I love it when everyone dies.
that arrow that went through rickon should have went through jon... then same story.
until Jon, arya, dany or tyrion die its all just a waiting game.
jdon
Arya is the only one who can die and I won't be upset at all. Her story has been incredibly unfullfilling, and I don't see her as an endgame character. Tyrion is great, but he is expendable. Jon and Dany are endgamers, I just don't see them dying before the big battle.
Totally disagree, Tyrion is not just an end-gamer, he'll be the one with true power at the end, because the Mother of Dargons listens to him, and he was wise and kind to Jon Snow when no one else was.
You know - IF the good guys win in the end!
I HAVE read all the books and theis season feels like a completely different story. Yeah I know that Martin supposedly gave them some material from the new book, but I feel like the showrunners have decided that the entire series is going to end before they get enough matieral from GRRM to really know what is going on and they have just decided to write it they way THEY want to, which as you say, feels like it is just pandering to the audience.
Obviously I could be completely wrong and this couild all just be part of Martin's master plan. But IMO it would be very odd for Martin to have this drastic of a tone shift after 20 years of writing. And the tone shift this season has been DRASTIC.
I'm not saying the season has been bad. But someone upthread (maybe you again) said it "feels more like an action movie now" and I agree. It feels more like a forumlaic action movie than GOT. A really good formulaic action movie, but everything that has happened this season has been straight out of Hollywood 101.
See, I feel that if this really were a Hollywood 101, Rickon wouldn't have died, for example. The Blackfish wouldn't have died, Brienne would have been at the battle. Sansa wouldn't be working behind Jon's back.
Yes, there's a slight change in tone, but it's still dark and grimy and political. There's still an episode left this season and I think if you look at the season as a whole, I don't think the tone has shifted exceptionally drastically. I think the inevitable Jon victory over Ramsay happened. Yay. There's still a lot under the scenes. I think there's going to be fallout between Sansa and Jon. There's going to be some things where you think "gee, that sucks."
Also, ironicaly, I would put the DANCE epilogue as one of those things that might be considered "fan servicy" if it happens in the show (and I think it will in the finale), yet GRRM has it right there in the books.
Clearly you say below you haven't read the books. So I'm guessing you haven't watched any interviews either. GRRM defines himself as a feminist. So I'm pretty sure the series events with girl power aren't much different than what GRRM envisioned.
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I don't really know if I'm following this.
I was happy to finally see the dragons used as a war weapon; like we're there. We finally get to see why Barristan was telling Dany "you'll win the Iron Throne with dragons."
Now that the world knows that Dany not just has baby dragons, but can control them in battle, we'll see where she goes. Sure, he character hasn't grown a ton, but I feel her character has been on hold, waiting for this moment where now she'll have to make big decisions.
It does make sense. I think you're right on the money. I don't read a ton of message boards; this is my personal view from watching this season:
We're gonna see a Dany heel turn. I think she's going to become the Mad Queen.
To me, that's the interesting twist for Dany. If it doesn't happen, then you're right; the story is getting old.
MAd Queen perhaps not, as you did see her listen to Tyrion and take his advice whereas the Mad King did none of that. However, she was raised her entire life to believe a lot of Westerosi lords are traitors and awful people and so I do wonder if we end up seeing a sort of purge and then mass chaos following that as the overall power structure is torn down. So White walkers beaten back YAY!!!, having to fight starvation and a massive power vaccum, boo!!!!!
I think she's A LOT more like her father than she or anyone else realizes. I mean, she was born of incest (centuries of it), so her brain probably isn't firing on all cylinders.
If it ends like we all think it will (dragons v's the army of the dead), then she's obviously the lesser of two evils. But I don't know how good of a ruler she would be in the long term.
is that Aerys started out, IIRC, as a relatively decent king.
Dany's freak flag my fly at any time.
...I don't think its historically uncommon in foreign policy to look at everything like nails when you have the hammer.
And she's young. If any of us had Dragons and Dothracki when we were young, and her background, would any of us be all that wiling to go with the subtle approach? Or would the Horseshoe be known as the 'ash pit of columbus'?
Basically the whole Mereen storyline seems like it's just there to spin Dany's wheels until it's time for her to go back to Westeros for the real action. It's not like today's Dany is all that different, or had any story meaningful developments, from the one that took Astapor, and that was seasons ago.
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Esecially characterizing the dragons as "deus ex machnia". I mean, it's been long overdue quite frankly. They keep talking Dany up as the mother of dragons. Six seasons later it's about DAMN TIME we see the supposed mother of dragons in full control of them. And it's important to show that too...I mean, up until that point nobody knew that Dany could actually control them and use them for force. Well, there's no doubt now what they're capable of. I was giddy during that scene, because it's taken so long to get to the point where dragons unleash their full fury on Dany's enemies. Almost felt like a teaser for the eventual main conflict where we get to see way more dragon action.
To me yara and Theon saving the day would have been way more of a deus ex machina. Something Dany had no control of but events just happened to coincide at the exact same moment? That's way too coincidental for my taste.
If she's been riding dragons the whole time, or even if we got the Drogon training montage, it would at least be established that the dragons are a huge part of the story. As it is, they are like the Eagles of LOTR, but even less sensical since they are apparently openly and easily loyal to Dany.
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I've been in general disappointed up until now with how they've handled the dragons in the story. I can understand why the dragons are loyal to their mother (because, duh), but that's pretty much as far as Dany's relationship with them has gone until now. It was a very sudden shift from "they like and protect their mother" to "they are now under Dany's complete command". I agree with that 100%. I feel like the lack of seeing/discussing the dragons is in part because they only have so much time/budget to focus on them. And I realize GoT isn't exactly strapped for cash...but there's about a billion other storylines to get to, so they didn't want to blow all of their budget on dragons except when necessary.
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GoT has incontestably been one of the least predictable shows on TV. How you can say otherwise is bizarre to say the least.
Soap opera? I don't think you understand the term. This show does not resemble a soap opera at all.
Fooled by the app. I don't agree overall with the post you were responding to, but I do feel like much of this episode was extremely predictable (though still heart pounding). Outside of this one episode though, I'd agree with you.