TIMMMAAY

June 22nd, 2016 at 11:23 AM ^

Reader and I are essentially saying the same thing. Sure, people assume that Ned was father to Jon. He could even be "legitimized" as a Stark. That doesn't magically make him of the male Stark line, no matter what his "legal" status, or what people believe.

Maybe you aren't familiar with the popular theory as to the actual parents of Jon, and assuming that you aren't, I won't spoil it for you. However, if the theory is true (highly likely), then what Reader and I have been saying is 100% accurate.

Do you see now?

edit: Since you're discussing that he may be found to be a Targaryen I will go a bit further as it seems you are familiar with R+L=J. Can you explain to me how, if that is the case, how would their be a male Stark heir in Winterfell? Blood is what matters, not the name, and being born of a female Stark is not the same as having a Stark father. I don't know how else to explain this...

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ironman4579

June 22nd, 2016 at 12:08 PM ^

No you aren't. You're talking about the male line being destroyed. This is true. No way around it. Reader is talking about the Stark name. He said the name was destroyed, and even if he was legitimized it would be as a Targaryean. This simply isn't true. No on outside Howland Reed knows he isn't really Ned's son. Blood clearly doesn't matter in naming if Joffrey was a Baratheon with pure Lannister blood. If Jon was legitimized as a Stark (as the theory goes) by Robb, then the Stark name does not die. If Robb legitimized Jon as Jon Stark, and Jon married and has a child, what is that childs last name going to be? Snow? Targaryean? No, it will be Stark. Now I don't know how else to explain it. 

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Reader71

June 22nd, 2016 at 4:44 PM ^

I'm not giving up. When I say name, I mean the male line. Which is why I brought up Joffrey; he had the name, but he wasn't of Roberts blood line. Jon could do the same. That's not what I'm concerned with. My post was about my sadness that the Stark line is dead forever. I wouldn't be sad about someone named Stark not being in Winterfell. I'm sad because Ned Stark, the first hero of the series, the most honorable man in Westeros, the guy whose eyes we saw the series through in its early stages, his male heirs are done. In truth, not in the eyes of other Westerosi.

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ParadiseMI

June 20th, 2016 at 5:12 AM ^

Dragons - they'd have no idea the two were no longer chained up, and as far as they knew the third had flown off with Dany to who knows where.

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JFW

June 20th, 2016 at 7:37 AM ^

I think they have to do some straight storytelling. They*have* to tie up some loose ends.

At the beginning of the season we had the boltons, dorne, dany taken (Again) away from Westeros...

I wasn't a huge fan of Jon acting like a tactical schmuck. Though it did seem very Rhaegar.

But I don't mind them starting to clean some stuff up. The fact that they do it swiftly and "straight" has to do more with GRRM's endless plot lines and their time table than anything else, IMHO.

To use an analogy, GRRM seems like a brilliant tactician who will manage the story amazingly at the small level. But he loses track of the war/large story arc.



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JamieH

June 20th, 2016 at 2:07 AM ^

Sansa even warned him that Ramsey would do it.  Told him not to fall into the trap.  And yet he did it anyway?  Very strange that they decided to write Jon as an idiot and have him be saved dumb luck like that. 

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JayMo4

June 20th, 2016 at 9:28 AM ^

Of course, Sansa could have persuaded Jon to wait - and saved a lot of lives - if she had said, "Oh, by the way, I emailed Littlefinger and he's teleporting his army across the continent as we speak.  He should be here sometime tomorrow morning around brunch, so maybe sit tight a bit?"

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RGard

June 20th, 2016 at 2:52 PM ^

Ravens fly in both directions and I would think Littlefinger would have responded.  

If she had mentioned it before they marched everybody they had to Winterfell Jon could have waited to see if he would have had a stronger force.

I guess we needed the drama of Jon almost losing the battle.

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Ty Butterfield

June 20th, 2016 at 12:20 AM ^

Awesome episode. Why did Rickon run in a straight line? Zig zag!! Also Jon Snow obviously knows nothing and played right into Ramsey's hand. The Giant and Littlefinger bailed him out. Sad that Rickon is dead.

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JamieH

June 20th, 2016 at 2:09 AM ^

If you know someone is shooting arrows at you, why would you run in a straight line?  All you have to do is run zig zag and you would be 100% impossible to hit at that kind of range.  I thought that scene was pretty dumb. 

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Rasmus

June 20th, 2016 at 8:58 AM ^

The idea was probably that he's still a child, scared by Bolton, running straight ahead in fear, not thinking. But since they did absolutely nothing to make us understand that, my reaction was much the same as yours.

It's like the Arya sequences where, it seems, she was basically trying to lure the Waif into a fight in the dark. I mean, she must have known that she would not be safe even if she left Braavos. That she would have to face the Waif no matter where she went. Probably she didn't plan to get stabbed, she was just trying to get the Waif to chase her into the dark. Eventually she did it. But none of that was clear to us.

Both surely make sense in the unpublished book, but the show has been forced to cut so much that sometimes things don't make sense when they should.

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JamieH

June 20th, 2016 at 2:18 PM ^

More likely IMO, without the author writing the story anymore (and making sure really stupid stuff like this isn't happening) the less skilled storytellers now in charge are making dumb mistakes.  They are still really good at making great stuff happen on TV, but obiously not as good at writing things that doesn't make you go "hey, wait a minute........" 

Authors who write books over 5 year periods probably spend a lot of time making sure their stories don't have stupid s*** like that in them. 

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BJNavarre

June 20th, 2016 at 12:23 AM ^

Cool episode in a pretty blah season. GREAT battle scene. Wonder what's in store for next episode. Guessing Bran sees Jon's mother and Cersei/Jamie somehow defeats the 7 (please, the 7 are destroying the show). A big whitewalker battle scene would seem a bit sudden, but that would be part for the course this season.

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Avant's Hands

June 20th, 2016 at 1:36 AM ^

I liked the episode, but it wasn't as good for me as it could have been because Jon made such a huge error in attacking. I was hoping for a tactical battle where Jon could really show off his leadership and win the battle on his own. I wanted Littlefinger to show up and already see the direwolf flying. I get why Jon lost his head, but it frustrated me and made me enjoy the episode less.

As for complaining about getting what we want/expect. It's pretty obvious that at this point in the game there isn't much of a twist that someone hasn't seen coming. There are 14 episodes left and we still haven't even gotten to the main conflict. They have to wrap up all of this human fighting pretty soon. And as depressing as this show constantly is, why is it a bad thing when we occasionally have an episode where someone we like wins? That's a bizarre complaint to me. Over 90% of this show is people getting terrible breaks. Good things happen in life too.

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