OT - First doses of Pfizer vaccine could arrive in MI by mid-Dec
I know that we are still technically in no-OT season, but this is some very welcome news. The TL;DR version:
- Michigan likely to receive "hundreds of thousands" of vaccine doses starting in mid-December
- Health care employees, other first responders, and residents of long-term care facilities will get them first
- Moderna is about a month behind Pfizer with its vaccine.
I can't think of a better Christmas gift to end 2020.
November 25th, 2020 at 8:26 PM ^
Unfortunately, Moderna lacks the production capacity of Pfizer. I suspect they may be able to produce less than half the number of doses.
However, not far behind them is AstraZeneca/Oxford. It uses a different platform (adrenovirus), but is much cheaper to produce and distribute, and doesn't require special freezers to maintain potency. It's up to 90% effective, and the one most of us will probably get, although the company has said that they are planning to distribute it to poor and underdeveloped countries first.
November 25th, 2020 at 8:47 PM ^
Not so fast AstraZeneca.. :( Robf mentioned this above. But still the Pfizer and Moderna seem incredibly promsing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/business/coronavirus-vaccine-astrazeneca-oxford.html
November 25th, 2020 at 9:18 PM ^
Wow. AZ really screwed this up.
November 25th, 2020 at 10:39 PM ^
I saw on CNBC the other day that different arms of their study have wildly different results (based on dosage). One of the commentators said it would never be approved in the US which would be a shame as it would be the first choice for rural areas as it doesn't require extreme refrigeration.
November 26th, 2020 at 10:53 AM ^
You believing CNBC is your first problem
November 26th, 2020 at 8:44 PM ^
You ought to change your handle to Tin Foil Warrior.
The person who was being interviewed on CNBC has extensive experience running clinical trials.
November 27th, 2020 at 9:58 AM ^
Says you Blow Me? You know "the person" and their credentials? Give you wife her razor back and get off this post.
November 25th, 2020 at 8:48 PM ^
Yeah, I mostly mean storage and logistics. A hospital is way more capable of storing large amounts of vaccine in a fridge for 30 days, like Moderna, than in a -90-ish freezer.
November 25th, 2020 at 11:08 PM ^
Pretty sure only the Pfizer one needs the crazy sub-0 temps. The Moderna one needs to be kept around -4 F, which my generic freezer from Best Buy can do.
https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/mode…
November 25th, 2020 at 11:34 PM ^
Correct, and that’s for long term storage on the Moderna.. When thawed It’s good for 30 days in a fridge, which is an important distinction vs Pfizer which is like six hours thawed.
November 25th, 2020 at 8:46 PM ^
I'm by no means an anti-vaxxer, but I'm also in no rush to get a vaccine that we don't know much about.
November 25th, 2020 at 9:37 PM ^
Unless you're also anti-statistics, you should be fine with taking it. This is something that does it's thing and leaves the body quickly. If there ain't any side effects within 3-5 months, there ain't going to be any at all. You need repeated exposure for long-term effects.
Like you're not going to get lung cancer if you smoke 2 cigarettes, or an ulcer from a couple aspirin.
Also remember that viruses have evolved their design over thousands and thousands of years just to survive, and there's relatively few iterations that 'work' well. To think that we unintentionally designed something better than all this evolution, with just a few mRNA base pairs, is simply impossible.
November 26th, 2020 at 1:40 PM ^
Or fine with not taking the first run of it considering if you run the numbers worldwide it's less than a 2.3% chance you would die from this should you contract it.
I get both sides of this convo. I think for some it's a tough decision.
November 26th, 2020 at 6:48 PM ^
It’s not “0.03%” chance of death from COVID-19 unless you’re under the age of about 50. Best estimates from the CDC, based on a model of the likely Infection Fatality Fate in the U.S., is 0.27% across all age groups. That’s about 2.5X worse than seasonal flu, but hospitalization rate is higher in C19.
November 26th, 2020 at 8:04 PM ^
Yes it is a higher chance if you are older and if you have other health issues at hand. That is true of anyone who is older and / or has other health issues with getting other illnesses. I simply took the overall numbers to date to get that %. I do know that older age = higher risk but I think even that isn't but around 5% you will die. More health issues equal higher percentage. Overall though it is 2.3%.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
November 26th, 2020 at 9:23 PM ^
5% is 1 of every 20. Imagine jumping out of a plane and you had a 5% chance the parachute wouldn’t open.
November 25th, 2020 at 10:07 PM ^
I’ll take your dose then.
November 25th, 2020 at 10:15 PM ^
Anything said before a "but" is usually a lie. It probably is in this context as well. Give me your needle and we'll call it good.
November 25th, 2020 at 10:30 PM ^
Serious question here (because it's going to be really important to understand folks' feelings toward these vaccines), what is it that you'd like to know about that you don't already?
November 26th, 2020 at 9:37 AM ^
For the sake of my Children, I would like to know side affects, long-term affects (no one knows this one because the trial has only been going on for a few months), how often must one get it? To those of us that have never had a flu shot, never got the flu, do we need to get this rushed vaccine? How quickly will covid mutate and render the current vaccine useless?
All of these questions will be asked when speaking to our PCP's, don't expect bloggers to respond. But these are all of the questions some vaccine skeptics might have.
November 26th, 2020 at 12:15 PM ^
Also, from my understanding pregnant women were excluded from the studies, so there aren’t actually stats or results on that specific demographic. Also, rational people can disagree on the risk/benefit of vaccinating young children with these early C19 vaccines (who are much much less severely impacted by C19 on average, and likely contribute less to community spread).
I think being aware of what the generalized data actually shows and does not show, and thinking about what’s best for the individual and family, and discussing this with a PCP doesn’t make someone “anti science” or a moron. It’s pretty reasonable.
November 25th, 2020 at 8:47 PM ^
My wife works in a hospital and she was on a call today saying that by the end of the month they should have doses distributed to staff. Really good news.
November 25th, 2020 at 9:25 PM ^
End of which month? Nov or Dec?
November 25th, 2020 at 10:22 PM ^
Lol Dec. we already have the Xmas tree up so December started 3 days ago for us
November 25th, 2020 at 10:28 PM ^
My hospital has mentioned dates for front-line folks as early as 12/14, I'll be in line as soon as I can.
November 25th, 2020 at 9:06 PM ^
You are correct. It's only a few miles from my house. My neighbor's dad works there so may be able to hook up all of us MGoBloggers with some doses. For just a few bottles of some fine Bourbon of course
November 25th, 2020 at 11:10 PM ^
You all take it it first, let me know how it goes. Never had a flu shot...
November 25th, 2020 at 11:31 PM ^
Sure thing, how’d you like to be updated? Want me to send you a picture of me not worried about ending up on a ventilator after caring for a COVID pos patient? That sounds pretty swell to me.
Also, how does never having had a flu shot factor in to your post? Is the point that you have an egg allergy or something?
November 26th, 2020 at 12:38 AM ^
Maybe he's afraid of needles. Hopefully they will give out some awesome Sponge Bob stickers or Dum-Dum suckers for being so brave, then how could he resist?
November 26th, 2020 at 12:31 PM ^
I’m not anti vaccine, but perhaps he is just doi a risk reward analysis. Risk of covid death or bad outcome if he is relatively young and healthy is well below 1%. Risk of a newly-developed vaccine using relative new tech (mRNA) that was rushed to market under unprecedented conditions (by the way, not criticizing the rush to get this to market) = unknown. For many people, they would take a well below 1% risk over an “unknown” risk in these circumstances.
Note: this is not intended to minimize the covid risk to the population, to be anti-vaccine or to be political. The only point is that your level of risk from covid depends on a number of factors so people can make the decision based upon their own circumstances. If I were 82 years old, or 50 with heart issues, I would be first in line to get the shot. However, given the near zero death rate for kids, I don’t see the need to take the risk for my 9 and 13 year old healthy kids.
November 25th, 2020 at 11:15 PM ^
I would get it day 1 if it means it helps keep my family safe.
November 26th, 2020 at 9:16 AM ^
I signed up for the AstraZeneca trial at UMHS but am not essential enough.
Hell, I'd get two different vaccines just to get more protection.
November 26th, 2020 at 9:46 AM ^
So easy to blame Trump because "orange man bad."
Loser
* edit meant for the losers below, this page is filled with adds now
November 26th, 2020 at 12:32 PM ^
That is admirable. Another option is for those in your family who are at risk to get the vaccine, and hence be protected (approx 95%) from not just you but everyone else.
November 25th, 2020 at 11:51 PM ^
I hope this is true and if Michigan can manage truly its own distribution then those 100k+ of doses will get out quickly and efficiently. But on the Federal level, unless Biden's people are going to coordinate the distribution, this is going to work out as well as all of the Covid testing sites at the major drug store chains that Trump 100% promised back in March. That or his admin will just take the vaccines that have been promised to Blue states and send them to Ohio. His admin is 100% incompetent except for theft and graft.
November 26th, 2020 at 9:26 AM ^
It was very apparent to Dr. Scott Gottlieb that Regeneron's CV cocktail would be successful as they had just solved Ebola using the same methodology. Results in their studies, animal through PII/PIII, have been stunning. Gottlieb was saying since last summer that the feds should have assisted REGN in preparing production facilities. The DoD did pre-buy $500M in doses but that was it. REGN is still a relatively small company with a limited production footprint. They did, left to their own devices, partner with a larger pharma but will only have 80,000 doses this year, 300,000 by March, and then 1B by the end of June.
Trump and his posse have had access to the cocktail and it might have saved him, Christie, and Ben Carson but nothing was done under the DPA to assist in ramping up production.
If this hasn't been a "let them eat cake" moment I don't know what is. Trump has been an abject failure in his CV response.
November 26th, 2020 at 10:47 AM ^
No worries. I’m sure the guy with early stages of Alzheimer’s will have a plan,
November 26th, 2020 at 12:14 PM ^
Just as long as he doesn't fire or ignore the people with the plan because he's worried about his image, unlike the moron that's currently holding office.
November 26th, 2020 at 1:42 PM ^
Operation Warp Speed was a Trump administration masterpiece. The only plan Joe has is to ruin the middle class and get Hunter back on the Ukraine payroll.
November 26th, 2020 at 2:00 PM ^
Operation warp speed hasn't brought any drugs to market yet, and the vaccine that is likely to arrive first was produced without any assistance from the warp speed program.
November 26th, 2020 at 2:58 PM ^
Lol -- so you're concerned about Joe but are just okay with the guy who uses "herd mentality" terminology when discussing CV mitigation strategies?
You've swallowed the Feaux News hook.
November 26th, 2020 at 12:12 PM ^
There are tons of problems with mono clonal antibodies that make them less effective as a widespread solution than vaccines. They have to be infused through IV, which is labor intensive to administer and time consuming, unlike vaccines which take a minute or two to administer. Also, they are administered to people AFTER they become sick, unlike vaccines, which can be administered prophylactically. Also, they are only effective in people that become ill with mild to moderate cases. Vaccines prevent people from becoming sick in the first place. Regeneron produced a drug that might be a helpful tool. But it is not going to solve covid. It is a very expensive niche solution that can help some people. Vaccines are the potential magic bullet that can protect the majority off the population, provided they are actually willing to take them
November 26th, 2020 at 2:51 PM ^
Going to need both.
November 26th, 2020 at 3:02 PM ^
Is that why Trump, Christie, and Carson all received Regeneron's monoclonal antibodies and credit them for their recoveries?
The data sets are incomplete on REGN's study for later stage patients but the results have been consistent among other arms.
Vaccines are cheaper but MCA's could have already, and will still play a part in, the world staying healthy.
November 26th, 2020 at 4:17 PM ^
I don't disagree with any of these points. But the cost of treating with MCA makes it difficult to scale in a global pandemic.
November 27th, 2020 at 12:47 PM ^
Is this the drug that is made with embryonic stem cells?
November 26th, 2020 at 1:45 AM ^
The main issue is still the extremely low temp needed for the Pfizer vac. I live in the Bay Area Ca with 7 million peeps or so. The only facilities that can maintain this temp are UCSF and Stanford who have these freezers for research and not to store vaccines.
I am on pharmacy committee at a local hospital and none of the other hospitals in the Bay Area have any chance of getting a freezer that can maintain this temp. The pharmacy director says she spoke to nearly all of the local hospitals and none have a freezer this cold. And...they are sold out at over $10k each for a small one until April. As near as we can see , unless all of us can go to UCSF or Stanford ( an hour plus trip each way in good traffic ) there has to be a way to bring vaccines to the rest of the area.
So far there has been some thought of mobile freezers on a semi truck, but the distribution of the Pfizer vaccine is still theoretical at best. And this in a wealthy, dense population area.
November 26th, 2020 at 9:55 AM ^
Your hospitals that perform surgeries using donor grafts should have a freezer that can go to -80. This is the temp that many grafts need to be stored at safely. Which is cold enough to store the vaccine. My department will be storing the vaccine for the hospital when we get them, which we were told is coming.
As for taking it, I still need to do more research to be comfortable of long term issues. The RNA transcription onto your cells and your body then creating antibodies is a game changer for potential future cures to illnesses. Saying that it’s still new and my question is how long does this last in your body and over time will the bodies immune system see it’s own cells and an invader and attack it. Essentially, ones immune system will turn on itself. Again, this is a question I need to research and if anyone has good scientific literature that covers this, please send my way. If this isn’t a legit concern I will be taking the vaccine for sure.