OT: 76 years ago today
I'm appreciative of your father, my grandfather, and all the other anti-fascists who sacrificed to win WW2 for the allies.
Anti-authoritarian. These guys hated Communism too.
Thank you for sharing. Because of people like your father and others who stormed that beach and experienced fear and horror one can only imagine - the Americans helped the Allies ultimately defeat true evil. The Greatest Generation is just that - we owe them so much.
It is this reason I stand with hand on heart during the national anthem - tp honor those whe sacrificed by going to war to preserve America. Our country has its problems - but it is still the greatest in the world.
I have listened to Colin Kaepernick, and now Drew Brees discuss their reasons and/or acceptance of kneeling during the anthem. I am willing to accept their sincerity. But to me - paying tribute during the anthem has nothing to do with the song or the flag - it is showing respect and true appreciation to your father, and all those veterans who went to war on our behalf, for their unreal sacrifice.
I hope those players that kneel during the anthem find other ways to honor the sacrifice of our veterans. They earned and deserve it.
My dad arrived in Normandy just a few days later. For many reasons he was lucky to survive that entire period of history.
While he would have appreciated your even-handed tone, he also would have found your reduction of the flag and anthem to be solely respect and appreciation of veterans misguided.
Kaepernick and the others taking a knee were always very clear about what their protest was about. It had everything to do with America, but nothing to do with veterans. In fact, it was an army veteran that suggested the method that would be most appropriate:
https://articles.aplus.com/a/why-colin-kaepernick-kneels-nate-boyer-national-anthem.html
Thank you for saying that Other Andrew. And thank you to your father who sounds like a wonderful man.
A flag is a symbol of a nation--its ideals, its land, its people. I don't think any veteran in their right mind will tell you that they are the ONLY thing that represents a nation. If anything, I've met vets that are angry at this suggestion because it portrays them as egomaniacs who think country equals soldiers.
And no, it is not disrespectful to veterans to say that. Nor should it be.
You might think that racist state violence denigrates the legacy of the Greatest Generation, given that their legacy was precisely having fought against the racist violence of a fascist state. If you thought that, which seems pretty compelling to me, then you might think that the most fitting tribute to the Greatest Generation imaginable would be to call on their memory in support of reforming the state to live up to the ideals for which they fought. Kneeling during the anthem strikes me as a really wonderful way to do that.
To be honest I'm not sure I understand how anyone else can disagree.
I stick with my statement. I am in awe of the sacrifices of the Greatest Generation to save our country. I just hope all other Americans are too.
FYI - I always discount anyone who makes a statement “I’m not sure how anyone else can disagree”. Shows a level of smugness and arrogance that should be disdained, regardless of your beliefs and political affiliation.
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Do you agree that kneeling during the anthem is a way of honoring the Greatest Generation by visibly demonstrating your belief that America can do a better job of living up to their example?
If you say yes, please note that my smugness was justified by the fact that you do in fact agree with me.
I don't care to compare one generation with another, to me that seems like an overgeneralization, and everyone's ultimately a product of their times. (How different would the last two weeks have been if cell phone cameras didn't exist and the Floyd death hadn't been recorded?)
I'm just glad that these young men were willing to do what they did. I'll leave it at that.
I don't find it very productive to undermine the story about the Greatest Generation in exchanges like this.
"how", easy, they simply do it. You're ascribing a single motivation to a group who does not openly avow that motivation - the starting basepoint for where bigotry comes from. I doubt you'd find a lot of the people fighting in any theater who would have said at the time, "I'm fighting against racists!" Fascism isn't on-it's-own a racist idea - it's an evil tyrannical idea, don't misread me, but it's not fundamentally racist. WW2 was, at it's simplest, an anti-bully campaign; motivation for the bullying wasn't pertinent.
You do you, Jon. If kneeling is your way of talking, well, rock on. If somebody else thinks there's another way to accomplish the same point, and/or even agrees with you fundamentally and yet thinks kneeling to the flag isn't their thing, they're not your enemy. What's more - even if they think your solutions will make things worse, that doesn't mean they think your goals are wrong.
I know that there are lots of people who disagree with me. My desire is to hear them, a lot of times, they know stuff I don't, and even if not, they still have a different way of looking, and that's pretty cool to learn too. I don't change my mind often or easily, but when I propose ideas, I try to think about how someone looking at the problem from a different angle than I do might see my solution, and sometimes it gives me sparks for even better ideas to propose.
My point is that disagreement isn't a bad thing - often it's a great thing. Disagreement is how we get more ideas, and with very few exceptions, more ideas is a good thing.
To be honest, I can’t see how a person can’t see BOTH sides!
make that a 'rational person'. people who choose to be blind are a different animal all together.
Of kneeling? Seriously? There has never been a context in which kneeling was disrespectful. Don't invent one out of investment in police violence.
Sorry Jon, here's where we disagree - you don't get to tell someone else how they see an event. If I see anyone (especially, but not only American citizens) choosing not to stand (unless they are unable for some reason, of course) during any national anthem, even another country, I think it's disrespectful. Whatever their reason, there's a time and a place, and that is not during the 3-4 minutes while we stop and say - as one - that no matter what, we're united. There may well be things that need to get fixed, but if we forget that at the end of the day, we're all pointed at our mutual best interest, then we're lost.
For me, those few minutes are everyone's way of saying there is a higher sense of community, and we respect EVERYONE who lives under that flag, whoever they are, no matter what. That's what a country is, after, ALL of its citizens.
I'm not going to tell you that everyone is treated perfectly, or that there aren't shitty awful things that happen within that country, but if we aren't all willing to agree that our interest is a better tomorrow for everyone, then what the fuck are we doing as a country?
Or in short, I do see it as disrespectful, and it's not for you to tell me I'm wrong. I understand why Kap did it, I understand the perspective of those that choose to do it. I don't have to like it, I respect what their intent is. I personally think there are better ways to make their point; I think there are better times and places to do it, but again, it's not for me to tell them they are wrong to see it their way. That's the coolest part about America, we can both see an action in different ways, and if we're willing to learn to understand we can still respect each other and not get our blood pressure up.
I'm not going to tell you that everyone is treated perfectly, or that there aren't shitty awful things that happen within that country, but if we aren't all willing to agree that our interest is a better tomorrow for everyone, then what the fuck are we doing as a country?
Since you are opposed to people kneeling in a solemn protest for a better tomorrow because it hurts your fee fees, or something, I do not agree with you that you and I share that interest.
Dear God Jon... I agree with you in principle in everything but the entirely bullshit affectation of kneeling so I'm the enemy, do you ever look yourself in the mirror? This, right here, this is the problem. You're so closed minded that any deviation from the party line that you've been fed is apostasy.
Wake up Jon, I'm not your enemy. We may not see everything spot on, but open-mindedness - which, after all, is at the heart of what the kneeling is supposed to help us gain is all about APPRECIATING OUR DIFFERENCES.
Fuck. Did I say fuck, because I meant to say fuck. Get over this sickness Jon, it is what is dividing us, not kneeling or racism or politics.
I agree with you in principle in everything but the entirely bullshit affectation of kneeling so I'm the enemy, do you ever look yourself in the mirror? This, right here, this is the problem. You're so closed minded that any deviation from the party line that you've been fed is apostasy.
Man. If you are not being hilariously obtuse on purpose, I really don't know what to say.
We may not see everything spot on, but open-mindedness - which, after all, is at the heart of what the kneeling is supposed to help us gain is all about APPRECIATING OUR DIFFERENCES.
The kneeling is not about helping us appreciate our differences. So I do know what to say about this. The kneeling is about police violence! Get a clue! JMFC!
The US was a segregated country at that time that was still subject to racist terrorism from whites on a semi-regular basis.
Fighting the Nazis does not eliminate or mitigate the US’s own violent racism,
Sgt. Pepper taught the band to play?
They’ve been going in and out of style, but they’re guaranteed to raise a smile!
Sgt. Pepper Spray and the Lonely Hearts Club Protesters Band
The men who stormed the beach and fought across Europe and the Pacific had more balls than I ever will.
That war was the epitome of good vs. evil. The US (along with the remaining Allied Powers) went off to Europe to fight pure evil. Our country has its fair share of problems. We’ve fucked up plenty, and still have plenty to improve upon in the here and now. But there’s a hell of a lot of good things its done in this world too.
Taking down and eradicating the Nazis from this Earth is one of them. Thank you to the everyone who served and continues to serve. You all are far braver than I could ever hope to be.
If you have the chance to be in northern France it is absolutely worthwhile to visit the D-Day sites. I was able to visit Omaha Beach, Pointe du Hoc and the American cemetery. It's a really profound experience to see these places in person (Omaha Beach is extremely wide and flat while Pointe du Hoc is almost vertical) and consider that people - mostly college-aged - captured them under fire. I can't recommend that enough.
Reading about what the Rangers did at Pointe du Hoc, it seems almost unbelievable that anyone could have thought that such a thing could be done. Scaling those heights, under fire, get to the top alive, and if you make it your reward is to fight like hell for your life. Can’t believe a movie has never been made about it...maybe because no one would believe it really happened
The film "Longest Day" does include a scene on the assault on Pointe Du Hoc
Thank you for posting this OP.
Sometimes I find it hard to understand the bravery of the men that fought that war. Thank God for them though.
At this hour 76 years ago, my father was lying on a beach at Normandy, He joined the army to stop fascism. Today he’d be very unhappy that fascism was rising again in of all places the US. He would be encouraging everyone to do what ‘s necessary in 150 days to make sure fascism doesn’t take a stronger hold in this country.
You really don't understand what fascism is, and need to go do some honest learning of that ideology before continuing to spew that comment. What's happened in our cities isn't remotely close to fascism. Easy example - if we were even APPROACHING fascism, your post there would quickly earn you a not-so-gentle rap-tap-tap on your door in the wee hours, and you'd get to enjoy a bit of talking to about your feelings with government agents. What fourth amendment rights? The government is here to protect you, even from yourself...
Do you recall reading about any widespread protests/riots in the mid-30s? I assure you it wasn't because the German people didn't want to protest, nor was it because the Nazis were universal throughout their country. It's because the German people were genuinely - and for much better reasons than any group in America today - scared of their government. Our government has myriad room for improvement and plenty of areas of outright failure, we agree there, and by all means vote your conscience in November, both parties have their pluses and minuses, but don't lie to yourself. The GOP is no more likely to allow fascism in this country today than they are to allow socialism.
Words seem to be losing their meaning today. Conservatives are fascists, progressives are communists. No one has a clue what either word means or how absurd it is to throw them around like that.
How in earth are you supposed to hate properly if you cant mislabel properly? Im going to hate you first and then apply the proper label to justify it. Need to make sure the country is adequately divided.....
Mislabeling is the first step towards dehumanizing. Once your opponents are dehumanized, you can attack them w/o guilt. We're already at this stage.
Seem?
Easy example - if we were even APPROACHING fascism, your post there would quickly earn you a not-so-gentle rap-tap-tap on your door in the wee hours, and you'd get to enjoy a bit of talking to about your feelings with government agents.
Like that time the Secret Service interrogated Eminem for his anti-Trump rap? Or that time the government (I don't remember which agency--maybe FBI?) interrogated Kathy Griffin for an anti-Trump photo? These are just the ones I know about off the top of my head. So, y'know, maybe find another example.
Do you recall reading about any widespread protests/riots in the mid-30s?
IIRC, there was street fighting between Communists and Nazis in the mid-30s. There were also uprisings under the Nazis, e.g., in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943.
I'm not going to go look up Eminem's exact lyrics, but I recall my eyebrows touching my well-receded hairline. Kathy Griffin held up a replica of the president's severed head. There's words, there's actions, and there's threats. Lest you fear Kathy Griffin was maltreated, she's said and done plenty of still very anti-trump things since that photo. Did she serve jail time? Did she fear further reprisal if she didn't "change her attitude"? No, she proved that she was just trying to make a (disgusting and reprehensible) point and life went on.
We're not even close to fascism, Jon. We're no closer to it today than we were during the last administration. I'm hesitant to bring up General Flynn, but what happened to him is WORLD'S closer to fascism than anything that happened to Mr. Mathers or Ms. Griffin.
And well, just for clarification, there were communist vs. Nazi scuffles in the early to mid-30s until Hitler had tamped down, and those events dropped sharply after he ordered the deaths of his own followers (night of the long knives). And when I bring up no protests, I would have thought obviously among Germans. Conquered Poles, especially conquered poles being actively persecuted are a hard exception.
Look at those goalposts move!
You're sad that you trying to move goalposts failed?
WARSAW WASN'T CONQUERED UNTIL 1939 YOU FUCKING MORON, AND ISN'T IN GERMANY.
As for the communist protests, read my post again, "after the early to mid '30s".
Sorry you're a dumbass, please try harder at not being so in the future.
I was talking about the first half of your comment, where you went from saying that people would be visited by government agents for their speech if we were anywhere near fascism to saying that it was ok that people were visited by government agents for their speech, "YOU FUCKING MORON."
Sorry for the lack of clarity. I confess I didn't think you were worth spending more time on. Still don't!
There's a MASSIVE difference between someone asking, "hey, that picture with you holding a severed head of the president, is that a threat or is that a piece of poorly conceived art?" and "you're saying things that we don't like, so it's time for involuntary re-education including jail but may include torture or death, at our rather fickle whims, like how well our bowels moved this morning."
That you don't realize this speaks very poorly of your ability to process information rationally.
There's also a rather massive difference between an agent knocking on one's door in a suit - armed but not drawn, probably in a semi-concealed holster vs. a swat-style swarm of bodies breaking in one's home in the middle of the night.
I'm not really moving any goalposts here, if anything this demonstrates in glowing detail the difference between fascism and where our country is today.
Oh, and you know - just saying less than complimentary stuff about the president gets ignored. It's only when you, you know THREATEN people that questions get asked. And again, _asked_.
If one were to make an overt threat, yes, one would probably have more questions to answer, and the answering would happen in a controlled room - but again, overt threat. That's not fascism, that's, "we've had a few chief exec's knocked off, a few more attempts, so let's be prudent".
Do you even know what fascism even is? No matter what CNN tells you or Fox tells others, the other side is not going to ruin the country. Trump may be insane but he is not a freaking fascist.
I don't watch cable news. But you are welcome to disagree with me if you want. I don't mind if you're wrong.
Salute to those brave antifascist soldiers!
I’d like to think they served for an ideal, an ideal that isn’t yet attained, and will likely never be fully. An ideal of a more perfect union where all people are created and treated equal under the law. I’d like to think we should all serve in our own small ways to achieve that ideal. Not doing that would be to truly soil their sacrifice.
Both my grandfathers served in World War I, my father and father-in-law served in World War II, and I served as an MP, after graduating from Michigan.
We served to protect American freedoms.That includes the right to protest.
Yet people still insist on telling others what to think, and how they're supposed to act.
My father-in-law served at an ammo depot in Hastings, Nebraska, with African Americans doing the most dangerous work in the segregated Army, and when he reported that they were also being treated badly, he found himself shipped out to the Pacific. People told him to think the way they did, and how he was supposed to act.
(As an immigrant) i have a profound gratitude for your father and all those who served in WWII and Korea. My ancestors were no where near Normandy, but indirectly benefited immensely. So i also am ‘happy’ to take on the historical responsibilities for injustices done by Americans in the past (e.g., against Native Americans, Blacks) even though my ancestors were nowhere near (and would have been oppressed too)... have to take the good and bad legacies of the US together...
My grandfather fought at D-Day and went on to serve under MacArthur. He would roll over today seeing the disgrace to the American flag and what he fought for in this country.
Thank you for posting this. Your father is a blessing. I am thankful for him. God bless!
God bless the men who braved the beaches of Normandy! Sorry for you loss. Men like him were a part of special breed. The losses of that day were heart rending. We all owe a great debt to men like your dad.