Michigan football mysteries
What are some of the biggest lingering football mysteries surrounding the football program? Not who the starters/transfers will be, but unexpected events that have remained unexplained.
Here's a few that I think about occasionally:
- What "cyber crime" did OC Matt Weiss commit that prompted FBI involvement?
- Why did Mike Hart depart the team?
- Why exactly was Sherrone Moore suspended for the East Carolina game in 2023?
April 12th, 2024 at 10:35 AM ^
Would Antonio Bass have been the greatest QB in Michigan football history?
April 12th, 2024 at 12:11 PM ^
What would have been if Devin Gardner had real coaching?
April 12th, 2024 at 10:13 PM ^
He also needed a real offensive line not a really offensive line.
April 12th, 2024 at 10:44 AM ^
The only question I would like answered is where is all that live footage that Ohio State has of CS actually videoing their sideline or any sideline for that matter? We heard that there is live footage of that, but yet it has never been revealed.
April 12th, 2024 at 10:46 AM ^
where is padme? is she safe? is she alright?
April 12th, 2024 at 10:49 AM ^
What was the deal with Bob Shoop?
BTW, Shoop was recently hired by Marshall to be their S coach. I hope he shows up on campus.
The story here about his hire doesn't even mention his Michigan 'work.'
https://herdzone.com/news/2024/1/2/marshall-football-announces-2024-coaching-staff-additions
April 12th, 2024 at 11:06 AM ^
Good one
April 12th, 2024 at 11:27 AM ^
I thought it was pretty clear that this was a COVID-related ADA accommodation?
April 12th, 2024 at 11:31 AM ^
That's what I figured it was, too, until a recent WTKA Roundtable where Seth and Sam suggested that if we had better background checks back then, we would haven't hired him. That doesn't sound like it was a COVID ADA thing.
April 12th, 2024 at 10:49 AM ^
Where does Ryan Day fit on the Mohs scale? Do we need a new scale?
April 12th, 2024 at 10:50 AM ^
Biggest mystery is how a team, with not the highest rated recruits, has been able to beat a team with double digit 5 star recruits 3 (soon to be 4) years in a row.*
*we actually do know so mystery solved
April 12th, 2024 at 10:52 AM ^
Who could possibly have it better than us?
April 12th, 2024 at 10:53 AM ^
1.What "cyber crime" did OC Matt Weiss commit that prompted FBI involvement?
2.Why did Mike Hart depart the team?
3.Why exactly was Sherrone Moore suspended for the East Carolina game in 2023?
- as mentioned by others, the police report only made mention of 'accessing other network accounts without authorization'. He was going into (or trying to get into) email accounts that didn't belong to him, and without the permission of the person/people the account/s in question belonged to. Why? Anybody's guess. At one point, it seemed a common guess/belief was that it had something to do with an extra-marital relationship, but i don't recall ever seeing any evidence to that effect. It's entirely possible we won't know unless or until the investigation wraps and criminal charges are filed. And if charges are not filed, we'll probably never know.
- I'm inclined to think we'll never get a clear answer on this unless Bacon writes a tell-all about the 2023 season. from what we know, it's a personal issue that may or may not have been medical. maybe he has a medical issue that has paused, or prematurely ended his coaching career. Maybe he was feeling burnt that he was not promoted to OC. who knows?
- IIRC, Moore was suspended for the EC game as part of the deal the program was trying to make with the NCAA regarding the burgergate/recruiting violations. He was one of the coaches who was either on campus when he wasn't supposed to be, or watched workouts via zoom when he wasn't supposed to, or contacted a recruit during the dead period, or something to that effect.
Personally I think the mystery I'd most like solved re: 2023 is who hired the PI firm that dished the CS story to WaPo. second choice would be less a solving of a mystery, and more satisfying a curiosity - but i'd love to have been a fly on the wall (or a bug on the line) of the B1G conference calls that resulted in TP suspending Harbaugh right before the PSU game.
and, of course, we'd all love to see what information the NCAA scouting investigation has uncovered beyond what's publicly known...and how ALL of that information fits within the context of the language of the in-person scouting prohibition bylaw.
April 12th, 2024 at 10:58 AM ^
I think that there are some media insiders, ie J U Bacon and other that know the real truth behind Mike Hart leaving the football program.
BTW, I's love to get the truth about the PI firm, who hired them and was this all initiated by Blackbeard Ryan Day.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:06 AM ^
I want to say I recall reading somewhere that Weiss was trying to find evidence of tampering by former player(s) in the transfer portal, but I could be completely making that up.
I don't doubt that you read this somewhere...but if I'm understanding you correctly, I don't see how it's a sensible way for Weiss to go about doing that. A sensible person doesn't engage in computer crimes to find out whether an NCAA violation was committed or not.
Ask the player you think did the tampering, and/or ask the player you believe was tampered with. If you can't get any solid information from either source, forget about it and move on. The job he had in front of him was far too important to jeopardize by worrying about potential tampering, imo. hopefully we find out with certainty one day.
some of our friends to the south are convinced it had something to do with gambling/fixing games, which just doesn't seem supported by any known facts at the moment. but they believe a lot of things about M that aren't currently supported by facts. ::shrug::
April 12th, 2024 at 10:53 AM ^
Question 2 is the burning issue IMO. Mike Hart has not landed a new position at another college nor moving to the NFL. I will not speculate but there has been no mention of him since the announcement that he left the Michigan program.
Another question is- was it necessary to fire Chris Partridge last November? I heard the reasoning and IMO, is should not have warranted a dismissal.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:07 AM ^
YES - What did Partridge know that others did not?
April 12th, 2024 at 11:30 AM ^
It wasn’t what he knew, but rather what he did. Can’t have that, no matter how BS the investigation is/was.
April 12th, 2024 at 12:28 PM ^
While true, we also can't summarily dismiss people who break a rule. From what we understand, he was talking to a player (or players) about how to respond to investigators. I'll suspect he was telling them to be honest - although that is a guess on my part. Nonetheless, we all know that Warde always sides with caution. And in this instance, caution means jettisoning Partridge without comment in hopes to appease investigators.
We also knows that Warde goes out of his way to appease outside forms of 'authority'. He fined Harbaugh for honest (and rightful) comments about officiating post-2016. He penalized Harbaugh for defending his players and program on Twitter multiple times. He suspended Harbaugh and Moore in hopes of appeasing investigators over BurgerGate. This is a guy with a demonstrable penchant towards appeasement. I have no doubt that he fired Partridge quickly, without recourse, and immediately told the NCAA what he did and isn't he a good boy for doing it?
FWIW, Harbaugh was pissed about the firing. You could see that in his clipped comments about it.
I understand and get concerning Warde with his appeasement attitude to the investigators. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth that Warde would do this and not defend any member of his staff. Jim indeed was pissed about that firing and likely helped Partridge get an assistant position in Seattle with Mike Mac Donald. Am happy that Chris is back in football and with the NFL, he deserves it.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:56 AM ^
I don't think it was ever even suggested that he "knew" anything anyone else on the staff did not. There was supposedly evidence provided that he tried to cover up what happened, either by destroying it or instructing players what to say. Obviously compelling enough for UM to immediately dismiss him with cause.
April 12th, 2024 at 10:20 PM ^
It was witness tampering, and it deserved immediate dismissal. You just can't do that.
That there's been no mention of Hart being linked to any other football-related job is what leads me to believe that whatever the issue was that caused him to leave the program is a threat to his coaching career, not just his tenure/relationship with Michigan.
As for Partridge, he violated a very specific directive from his boss about discussing the investigation, while the entire program was under the microscopes of the NCAA, the B1G, and the national sports media. Regardless of how inconsequential his actual actions (or what we know of them) seem, in the surrounding context, the fact that he violated the directive seems to justify his termination, imo.
April 12th, 2024 at 10:55 AM ^
What, exactly, was the nature of Gattis' interaction with Xavier Worthy's mother?
April 12th, 2024 at 10:57 AM ^
Did Les Miles really sleep with Moeller's wife, or why exactly did Carr hate him and blackball him, resulting in the hiring of RichRod?
April 12th, 2024 at 10:58 AM ^
All jokes aside, #1 is a complete mystery.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:03 AM ^
Did CJK5H or is it still "allegedly"?
April 12th, 2024 at 11:04 AM ^
Who knew what Connor Stallions was up to and when did they know it?
April 12th, 2024 at 11:48 AM ^
Given that I'm firmly in the camp that what CS did was gray area at best,* this question is irrelevant to me.
*The only thing in my mind that may have actually violated the letter of the law would be the CMU thing, but to me, the Occam's Razor/most plausible scenario is that he was there to help CMU. It just doesn't make sense to go to all that trouble (and if that was him, he was clearly trying to disguise himself, i.e. he knew it was problematic to be identified) for a much inferior vantage point than just sitting incognito in the stands (not to mention that on top of it, he either wasn't recording (way inferior for intelligence purposes), or trying to record with camera glasses which, again, are much inferior to using a phone camera from the stands).
April 12th, 2024 at 10:23 PM ^
CS was so dedicated to the CMU cause that he grew a full head of hair overnight.
Or else the guy that looked just like a CMU analyst was a CMU analyst.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:06 AM ^
How soon till we get to find out which Buckeye booster paid for that PI?
April 12th, 2024 at 11:11 AM ^
Here's one: In the App State game there was a stretch of at least a series or two when Mike Hart was not on the field, and I want to know why. Was he dinged up? He came in later and played well. I suspected he was being disciplined for something (maybe getting pissed off and in a coach's face during the game when it was going south) and that the coaches intentionally held him out as punishment and then put him back in when it became clear we needed everything we had if we were going to win the game, but it was too little, too late.
Likewise, Debord seemed to treat a large part of the game as a scrimmage. We were trying to run the ball, weren't succeeding, so rather than have our NFL QB Henne throw to our NFL receiver Manningham or our borderline NFL receiver Arington, we ran into stuffed boxes to "practice", only opening things up when we were legitimately scared of losing. Is my suspicion that Debord was thinking that way correct?
Likewise, was Debord the acting head coach for the first two games of 2007? Lloyd wanted to retire after 2006. Bill Martin talked him into coming back for one more year. I suspect Lloyd handed the day to day keys to Debord and was acting like a hands-off CEO type coach in 2007 until it was obvious the wheels were falling off, and then Carr jumped in to save the season. [When Bo retired following the 1989 season, Moeller tried talking him into staying, letting Moeller do the hard stuff of running the day to day things, but Bo said, no, I'm either going to be retired or I'll be all-in. I'm assuming Carr knew that conversation took place and that it appealed to him in 2007.]
April 12th, 2024 at 11:18 AM ^
THANK YOU for raising this. Perfect time for an exhumation of AppState game and a fresh autopsy.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:26 AM ^
I'd still rather not.
Yes, but I think two championships is enough to ask WTF the defense was doing on the Kordell Stewart play.
April 12th, 2024 at 12:31 PM ^
Too soon. There is no good time for this type of endeavor...
April 12th, 2024 at 11:31 AM ^
I have heard multiple interviews with Michigan players about that game, and they all say the same thing, they lost that game during the week. No one took App St. seriously and they weren't listening to the coaches during practice. DeBoard may not have had as many play options to work with because the guys had not repped them well during the week.
I used this as an example with one of my sons just last week about doing his basic homework assignments to be better prepared for the actual tests.
A friend of mine (no ties to Michigan whatsoever) knows a prominent member of the 2007 team well. He kids him about Appalachian State frequently, and this player corroborates the "team wasn't taking it seriously" up to and including players going out multiple nights that week (he says they went out the night before the game, I'm leery of that claim) and a couple off-field incidents leading up to the contest.
Don't know all the specifics, and that App State team was proven to be legit, but given the way they followed up vs. Oregon the following week, I'm guess Lloyd knew it was time to get out.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:21 AM ^
Why did Borges not change the play on the 2 point conversion in 2013?
[Fwiw, I think there's a lot of revisionist history around Borges. The editorial view on him was overly negative because he didn't run RichRod's offense for Denard. But in my view (a) he couldn't do that because it just wasn't an offense he knew, and (b) after a few games he came up with a blend of a RichRod spread and an offense he did know, and it worked pretty well. After we went 11-2 in 2011 Borges was rumored to be a candidate for an OC position elsewhere, and people here were worried he might leave. Then he stayed, and offense got progressively worse, partly because the OL was terrible. We literally had one OL recruit in the 2010 class and two in the 2011 class, which meant Hoke needed to bat nearly 1.000 on his 2012 and 2013 classes, which he did not. Borges wasn't a star OC, but he was good and things got much worse when Hoke made the disastrous move to go with Nussmeier.]
April 12th, 2024 at 11:55 AM ^
Good point on the OL. Once you look closely, you see that really the only OL Hoke had that were good were ones that were initially developed under RRod and Frey. The OL brought in under Funk floundered, except for a few leftovers that Drevno got some improvement from early in Harbaugh's tenure.
Mason Cole really encapsulates the Funk thing for me. I honestly think his best year was his true Fr. year. It's as if the coaching he got in HS was better than what he got from Funk, because he (and other OL) seemed to get worse, not better, as they went along under Funk. Dude was easily one of the few worst coaches we've had here in our lifetimes...
Borges was still responsible for 27 for 27 against Penn State in 2013 and according to the box stats 36 for -21 against Nebraska who if I remember right had an awful rushing defense up to that game. It got so bad Spielman in the booth even started questioning it.
If you keep trying to run that much with no success you're just being stubborn and a bad OC. No revisionist history there.
Al Borges was the talented jam band guitarist who mostly noodled around aimlessly with boring 12-minute arpeggio wankfests but at least once a month he hit on a masterful melody and hook (i.e., 2013 ND and almost all of 2013 OSU) and when he was on, he was on
so you're saying Al Borges = Coventry Trey?
I love it.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:24 AM ^
Will anything come of the smoke that Catapult employees who previously worked at Ohio State were sharing film with current employees of Ohio State? Seems like there should be a clear IT trail of who accessed files and did X, Y or Z with them.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:24 AM ^
When will OSU finally "hang 100"?
April 12th, 2024 at 11:31 AM ^
Which of these possibilities reflects Connor Stalions' state of mind: (A) he thought he was cheating, (B) he thought he had found a loophole (recall that when the story first broke a lawyer from OSU said he read the rule carefully and didn't believe anything that was initially alleged was against the rules*) or (C) he literally didn't know that the rule existed -- didn't know he was doing anything wrong.
*The argument, as I recall, was that this wasn't advanced scouting because scouting implies that a scout was involved (either a member of the staff or someone who earns a living as a scout vs a random dude attending the game at the request of someone else). And the analysis further concluded that the rule against video taping was limited to the home stadium or the field of play or something like that? I don't remember that part as well. Either way, the rule was put in place during an era in which video equipment meant video equipment, not when everyone has a phone in their pocket that can shoot video.
On (C) Pete Thamel had to first explain that the rule in question existed because otherwise nobody would have known about it. The NCAA rule book is like a silly phone book. It wouldn't surprise me at all if (C) were the correct answer.
I think it's a combination of B and C - the bylaw prohibiting in-person scouting specifically prohibits that action being undertaken by coaching staff and program employees. Meanwhile, a 2013 revision to the bylaw specifically greenlights 3rd party scouting, and lists the ubiquitous presence of public domain video sources as one reason for doing so.
In that light, CS sending randoms to games with a request to film game/sideline action does NOT violate the bylaw, unless the NCAA decides to say that because the video CS solicited was not in the public domain before he obtained it, that it somehow constitutes a violation.
That said, 3rd party scouting includes professional scouting services, some of whom have semi-customized services for their clients (teams that pay for footage). Given that discussion of scouting, scouts, and the definition of such is otherwise absent from the bylaws, there appears to be no official approval/validation/accreditation process for "scouts" working in the NCAA sphere.
So, i don't think it's a 'loophole' so much as i think he just took a plain reading of the bylaw and said "I can't go get film, but I can send friends/family/neighbors/fans to games and ask them to send me film."
If that's the interpretation the NCAA ends up going with, there are going to be a lot of angry people in E.Lansing and Columbus. And i will chuckle softly to myself.
April 12th, 2024 at 11:33 AM ^
Who conjured the idea of hiring a PI firm to investigate sign stealing, how did the project evolve, and who paid for it?
April 12th, 2024 at 11:34 AM ^
Where is CRex?