[LOCKED] OT - Mass Shooting leaves 14 Children and 1 Teacher dead at Texas Elementary School

Submitted by Nervous Bird on May 24th, 2022 at 7:43 PM

MOD EDIT - Before this gets too far down some divisive roads, I am going to lock it but leave the comments.

I will just say what I said last night on Twitter - when it comes to the issue of guns and access to them, if Columbine wasn't enough for you, if Sandy Hook was insufficient for you, if Parkland didn't move the needle for you, and all the ones in between and before, all the lives ended or altered and the families torn asunder, then you're simply going to need to be honest - you do not care, at least not enough that you would be willing to do something for the collective good. If you are in this category, please simply accept that about yourself. - LSA

This is the 2nd mass shooting with 10+ fatalities in ten days. I think the issue of gun rights/control transcends 'politics'. This is not about left or right, liberal or conservative, it's about people of all political persuasions demanding reasonable solutions so that our children, our elderly, can shop, go to school and church with more safety. We can protect gun rights and people simultaneously. As a start, maybe the country should outlaw and confiscate any magazine that has more than a 6 round capacity. 

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/24/1101037902/texas-elementary-school-shooting-uvalde

East German Judge

May 24th, 2022 at 10:38 PM ^

Mental health is a REAL PROBLEM and needs to be addressed much better by our society, but it is a problem EVERY WHERE IN THE WORLD - we do not have a monopoly on it!  The big difference is that we have more guns and accessibility to firearms than anywhere else in the world and thus lead the world in gun related deaths per 1,000 by a mile. 

But no need to bring facts into the discussion with some people who keep holding onto their 2nd amendment.  These same people probably have no clue as to what the 3rd amendment is without using Google.

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matty blue

May 25th, 2022 at 8:45 AM ^

mental health, and the way this country's health care system deals with it, is absolutely a problem.

if we fixed that TODAY, it would make zero difference on the problem of gun violence in this country.  suggesting otherwise is some deflecting horseshit.

by the way - right wing, empty-skulled fuckheads like marjorie taylor greene pointing the finger at any aspect of health care while simultaneously doing everything they can to keep the health care status quo is peak fuckhead.  fuck all of them, forever.

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WindyCityBlue

May 25th, 2022 at 9:09 AM ^

Wait? So if we fixed mental health issues today, there would be no net positive impact to gun violence?  
 

This overly dogmatic approach to these issues does not work. I’m very much a left leaning person, but because I think otherwise to you I’m “deflecting horseshit”.  You’re like a Sith Lord as part of the Galactic Empire, in that you only deal in absolutes. 

 

 

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SalvatoreQuattro

May 24th, 2022 at 8:33 PM ^

End glorification of guns and violence. This country has long seen guns as instruments of liberty or problem solving  rather than as instruments of death. Until people understand the impact of laws will be muted. We have to change the way we view guns and violence. Especially us males. Our mentality is literally killing us and our children.

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blueandmaizeballs

May 24th, 2022 at 8:42 PM ^

Well said!   The right to bear arms is bullshit and laws need to change what do we really need them for?   We have food ready to eat all the time this isn't a time where you had to hunt to be able to eat.  Imagine how great it would be not to ever have to see the news where kids learning in school are killed for me reason because some dumb got access to a gum with ease.    I could go get a gun in 40 minutes and start using it which is a shame. Without guns the good people don't need to buy them to protect themselves from the evil people who shouldn't have guns.   Road rage now involves shootings not fights. People use to fight to solve problems and whoever won that was the end of it now the winner gets shot or they shoot each other instead of fighting.   You can survive a beating but a gun shot or shots most likely ends in death 

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JonnyHintz

May 24th, 2022 at 9:11 PM ^

Just a few problems here:

 

the right to bear arms didn’t/doesn’t have anything to do with hunting. Whether you agree with the right to bear arms or not, that’s not now, nor was it ever, what it was referring to. 
 


Without guns the good people don't need to buy them to protect themselves from the evil people who shouldn't have guns.

 

In theory, sure. The problem you’ll run into is getting to the “without guns” part. There are over 400 million guns in this country. Those aren’t going to just disappear. Those evil people aren’t going to give them up. A huge chunk of the good people in your scenario aren’t going to willingly give them up either. I don’t know what your solution is on that end, but that’s a pretty important part of it. 
 

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george11

May 24th, 2022 at 9:15 PM ^

As someone who has the majority of my adult life defending the U.S. Constitution, your notion "The right to bear arms is bullshit.."  is absurd. Your lack of understanding at amazing and scary.

In the face of an oppressive government that chooses to trample your rights, without protections what are your options? Harsh words and criticism do next to nothing. Ask those in Ukraine!

Mass shooting are a tragedy and I am firmly behind certain additional restrictions, however this can easily be turned against the people and used as a weapon in and of itself.

The true issue lies in the lack of respect for human life! Pure and simple. Taking the life of another human is something that everyone should consider appalling and unimaginable. This is not currently the case, the complete and total lack of respect for human life is what is bullshit! Unless you have respect for your fellow human beings, anything can be a weapon and any excuse for taking it can be self-justified!

 

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blue in dc

May 24th, 2022 at 10:12 PM ^

The right to bear arms is explicitly tied to states being allowed to have a well regulated militia.    It is about states ability to defend themselves against the federal government not an individuals right to defend themselves against government.   If it was about the individual instead of saying “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” the clause would have referred to individuals.

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george11

May 24th, 2022 at 11:22 PM ^

I believe the part you are looking for is, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." 

Who exactly do you think that the "the people" refers to?

I have stood up and defended your right to believe what you will, however that DOES NOT mean I give up my rights!

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blue in dc

May 24th, 2022 at 11:44 PM ^

In your reading, what is the purpose of the previous clause?   Why doesn’t the second amendment just say, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”.    It says, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”   The right to bear arms is explicitly tied to the need for a well regulated militia.

What happened to the rights of the kids at Robb Elementary School?

 

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UMinSF

May 25th, 2022 at 5:05 AM ^

And furthermore, since when are Constitutional amendments perfect and not subject to change?

Hmmm, let's see....the 18th Amendment prohibits the manufacture or sale of alcohol, yet the 21st expressly repeals that Amendment.

Are you outraged that the 18th Amendment was repealed? I sincerely doubt it. Most would say the 18th Amendment was a mistake, and correcting it was a good idea. 

The 2nd Amendment is not clearly written or easily interpreted - as the preceding comments demonstrate. Some believe it refers to state militias, others believe it extends to private gun ownership - depends on how you read and interpret it. Either way, it's not crazy to think it could use some adjustment. 

Furthermore, virtually no one believes "shall not be infringed" is absolute - people can't legally own bombs or howitzers or nukes - aren't those also arms? Yet we infringe people's right to bear them (thank goodness).

I believe a minority of US citizens think people should be allowed to own assault weapons - what makes assault weapons different from howitzers? It certainly isn't written anywhere in the Constitution or 2nd Amendment. 

Even if the "right to bear arms shall not be infringed" is interpreted to mean an individual's right - it does not say the right to bear ANY or ALL or MANY arms - or howitzers or nukes, or concealed weapons, or assault rifles, or high capacity cartridges or rapid firing mechanisms. That's all subject to interpretation.

Personally, I believe it's absurd to put a person's right to have a gun above another's right to not get shot. I also believe the 2nd Amendment, as currently interpreted, is fucked up.

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Blue@LSU

May 24th, 2022 at 8:48 PM ^

That's nice and all, but how do you do that? I mean in a practical sense? How do you get society to stop glorifying guns and violence? How do you get people to stop seeing them as instruments of liberty? 

I don't disagree with your overall statement. I just don't see it as a practical solution.

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JonnyHintz

May 24th, 2022 at 9:26 PM ^

One issue I’ve had is the “glorification” of the shooter’s themselves in the media. Not that the media is praising them by any means but I think too much attention is given to the beliefs of the shooter, their “reasoning” for committing the shootings, websites/forums they frequented that catered to their ideology, groups they’re associated with. 
 

Doing so brings those fringe thoughts/groups to the forefront of society’s attention and risks the indoctrination of more youths. I think it has somewhat of an impact and, in a way, empowers future shooters. 

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JonnyHintz

May 25th, 2022 at 4:57 AM ^

But the problem we run into is that these forums and ideologies are so much on the fringe of society to begin with that the likelihood of people even being aware of them prior to them being endlessly discussed following the shootings is minuscule. Like it or not, the attention brought to this by the media attention it gets increases the traffic to such sites and groups. 

The people who would be turned off by these ideas are going to be turned off by them regardless of whether they know what the shooter’s ideology was. What you’re really risking is the random 13 year old who has never heard of this group/ideology/forum getting curious because he’s heard it constantly on the television and online the last few days and becoming indoctrinated by what he finds. 

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TruBluMich

May 24th, 2022 at 8:04 PM ^

My entire body began shaking when I heard the news. It is a horrific and utterly barbaric act committed by an animal (for lack of a better term).

EDITED TO REMOVE UNEEDED PERSONAL FEELINGS

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ThisGuyFawkes

May 24th, 2022 at 8:08 PM ^

Such a cop out response. Pretend you care about the problem - then shrug and say the main vehicle (aka guns) for this type of carnage is not the problem. Is it possible to kill dozens of people with knives, hunting rifles, hell… baseball bats - absolutely it’s possible. But I suspect there’s a reason why you don’t hear about a mass-knifing every other week in America

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TruBluMich

May 24th, 2022 at 8:23 PM ^

I wrote a paragraph on a complex subject with a million different opinions. Everything I wrote was based purely on personal feelings mixed with a lot of rage about this incident (something I'm sure all of us are feeling right now). It was not well written and was pure emotion. I'll rehash what I said to avoid your comment looking out of place.

The person who did this was a piece of shit, and my PERSONAL feelings are mental health is a huge problem. I did say that what weapon he used makes no difference to how I feel about this act. I also said people are too damn busy arguing about guns to focus on the real problem. Had I seen you had already replied, I would have left it as is, but I hit edit about as quickly as possible. You were just quick to respond.

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Commie_High96

May 24th, 2022 at 8:06 PM ^

America basically doesn’t care about elementary school kids getting killed, people dying from no health insurance, rural people dying of opioids, the highest infant and maternal death rate in child birth of any developed country. Nobody cares. So long as military contractors, Nancy pelosi and Mitch McConnell get their friends paid. 
 

next week some other school will get shot up. Another of my client’s kids will die of an overdose and congress will vote another $40 billion for Ukraine so Raytheon will be their earnings target.


we beat the Nazi’s almost 80 years ago and that was the high point.  it’s been a slide downhill since.

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Commie_High96

May 24th, 2022 at 9:01 PM ^

Yes, that’s my high school in Ann Arbor. Also, when people don’t understand that, like SalvatoreQuattro here, it pretty much signals their “Walmart” status as dudes who don’t know a2.

Sorry Salvatore, but if you don’t get Commie High after attending UM, you never left south quad or went to Zingerman’s, which is next door to COMMIE HIGH

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SalvatoreQuattro

May 24th, 2022 at 8:27 PM ^

More people die from medical errors than want of health insurance(240-400,000 vs 45,000). The first and still deadliest school massacre occurred almost 100 years ago right here in Michigan. The US has a long history of massacres, school or otherwise.

Mass shootings account for a fraction of the annual gun-related homicides in this country. The leading cause of death for young to middle aged black men is homicide. Black men constitute 44% of all homicides.

The United States government  slaughtered people on a scale unseen before in human history with the Tokyo and atomic bombings. 100,000 dead in a single day on March 10, 1945. Calling that our high point…is…um…er.

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Hanlon's Razor

May 24th, 2022 at 8:14 PM ^

If only everyone's outrage about seeing a board post on this topic- and desire to avoid the topic in general- was matched by their passion to prevent further school shootings. 

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blue in dc

May 24th, 2022 at 8:31 PM ^

If posting on here had any chance of impacting school shootings that might be a better gauge of peoples passion for the issue.   As long as large numbers of people read the clause “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” out of the constitution, we are not going to make progress on this issue.

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SalvatoreQuattro

May 24th, 2022 at 8:38 PM ^

There is more to it than just that. Gender is the #1 issue here as it is all over the globe. Removing guns reduces the lethality of male violence, but the threat is still there. 
 

Males are overwhelmingly responsible for the violence we see today. We need to address that as much as anything else. That needs to be a focus too.

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bronxblue

May 24th, 2022 at 9:35 PM ^

There are 33.15M men in England and 33.94M women, and yet they have a firearm-related death rate of 0.23/100k.  Japan has 61M men and 64M women, yet has a firearm death rate of 0.06/100k.  The world has billions of men and yet it sure seems like those who have access to firearms kill a hell of a lot more people than those that don't.

It's inevitable at this point that we're just going to keep going round and around as a country about gun ownership and the inevitable human cost for people to enjoy that "right" but we should at least be honest that that's the discussion we're having and stop with the bullshit deflections about other causes.

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JonnyHintz

May 24th, 2022 at 10:09 PM ^

The world has billions of men and yet it sure seems like those who have access to firearms kill a hell of a lot more people than those that don't.
 

I’m not discounting your point here, the stats might still prove your point. In fact, I’d wager they do. But shouldn’t your statistics be for murder rates instead of gun related deaths if your point is that having access to guns means more people are killed?

Having fewer gun related deaths doesn’t inherently mean that fewer people are killed   in those countries. 

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UMinSF

May 25th, 2022 at 5:34 AM ^

True, Jonny.

My quick search showed we're 59th out of 195 countries in murder rate per 100k - but none of the countries with higher rates are wealthy, developed or have viable law enforcement.

All other developed countries have FAR fewer murders per capita.

Our murder rate is 6.3 per 100k - most western European countries' rates are near or below 1. 

No country with strict and enforced gun laws has a murder rate anywhere close to ours.

It's guns.

 

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