John U Bacon details more eyewitness reports from msu Michigan game

Submitted by Malarkey on November 13th, 2022 at 8:15 AM

https://johnubacon.com/2022/11/justice-delayed-for-all-involved/

In the past two weeks I’ve found out more than I wanted to without trying. A number of witnesses have reached out, unsolicited, including two sideline workers who have sent letters to the Big Ten describing what they heard from the MSU players, staffers, and coaches during the game. Frustrated with the Big Ten’s lack of a response, they sent copies to me this week. 

In the first, the witness writes, “While working…on the Michigan State sideline I heard many of their coaches, players, and staff yelling and encouraging [their] players to aim to tackle [Michigan running back] Blake Corum ‘at the knees and end his career.’… While I can’t identify specifically who was saying it, I know from turning around a few times after it was yelled that I saw it was a mix of players on the bench, staff in MSU clothing, and Coaches on the sideline yelling ‘aim/go for his knees,’ ‘tackle him at the knees and end his career,’ throughout the game. It was very clear the message they were trying to get across to the players: they were encouraging them to try and injure Blake’s knees.”

Although he put his name on the letter, and others have confirmed he is a credible source, there are few things I’m less excited to do than to dive back into this swamp, so I sat on his letter. But then another witness sent me a copy of his letter that he’d sent to the Big Ten, which corroborated much of what the first witness described. 

This witness, who attended another Big Ten university, starts by saying he’s been working on the Michigan Stadium sideline crew for a specific number of years, but suffice it to say that it’s been decades, all of them spent on the visiting team sideline. 

“The MSU players and staff were by far the most hostile and undisciplined team I have ever been around. Below is a list of things I heard.” 

I’ve reduced it here to a few points:

  • “Constant complaining to the officials. During the second quarter the line judge comments to me that ‘this is not what I signed up for.’
  • “There was an unprecedented amount of trash talk. JJ McCarthy was running the ball and I heard a MSU staff member yell ‘break his fucking arm.’ The MSU sideline was still using over the top vulgarity even when there was only one minute left in the game.
  • “Usually after the clock hits 0.00 the referee’s sprint off the field. This game they stayed to break players up on the field. While leaving the field the head referee was confronted by a MSU staff member. The staff member then calls the referee ‘a bitch ass mother fucker.’ I have never seen anything like that.
  • “Mel Tucker spent the entire game arguing with the officials. He looked very agitated and never accepted the official’s explanation.”

The witness concludes by saying, “I will say it was the most toxic and hate filled sideline I have ever been a part of and it starts with the head coach. The staff and players follow his lead.”

I can add that I’ve been on the sidelines a few feet from the Michigan coaches, staffers, and players, for 25 games, and another 4 behind the Penn State bench, and never heard anything like that. What the witnesses are reporting is not common.  As one of them told me in our conversation, “When Ohio State comes to town there’s almost no trash talking. They are focused on trying to win a football game.”

It’s not clear what the Big Ten is doing with this information, if anything. Obviously, these and other eye-witness accounts should be including in the report. Likewise, if the investigators found Michigan players had taunted the Spartans, and if they engaged in any physical altercations, that should be included too. In other words, the investigators should do an honest job of pursuing the truth wherever it leads, without fear or favor – but they should do it sooner than later. 
 

 

 

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truferblue22

November 13th, 2022 at 11:20 AM ^

when Denard was on our team I was dating a girl from msu at the time and she had a class with some of the msu players. She was telling me they were saying their only goal was to "end Denard's career". She said they said that in some form multiple times in class. This was the 2011 game I believe and when I saw the head twist that was of course all I could ever think of. Nothing has changed, it's a culture problem. 

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 13363

BlueKoj

November 13th, 2022 at 10:09 AM ^

I agree. If true, it is disgusting. Past behavior makes it easy to believe.

I do find it interesting that JUB says, "an investigation that would take a competent journalist about two days to complete, not two weeks" but then never actually talks about the most relevant circumstances. The sideline behavior is interesting, appalling and indirectly related, but the real investigation and relevant facts are from inside the tunnel. JUB didn't illuminate the core case much for all his criticism. I like him, but I would have preferred his "findings" to have told us about the incidents themselves -- if it were as easy to make such inquiries as he says.

Joined: 01/10/2014

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BoFan

November 13th, 2022 at 5:15 PM ^

It’s not just MSU.  This is a cultural thing that football needs to stamp out by erroring on the side of safety and protecting player health.

The cultural problem starts in HS.  I know too many stories where players are coached or take it on themselves to injure a star player just to win the game.  How does that ever make sense.  Injure a star player, sometimes permanently, just to win a game. SMH  

We see it at the pro level with ass hole coaches like Sean Payton who should have been permanently banned.  And MSU is definitely not the only college team with that culture.

People complain that Targeting is too aggressive but even if there are errors where a player has to sit out, it will change behavior in the future.  But targeting is actually too lenient. And there are other obvious hits that are intended to injure. 

One aggressive rule would wipe out this culture. That rule would be the eye for an eye rule.  If you intentionally injure a player then your career is on hold for the same period of time as the player’s career who you injured.  Out for the season then you are out for the season.  Injured permanently then you are also done. Start this with targeting. Add other obvious personal fouls. Error on the safe side and have a panel that can allow players to appeal for reinstatement.  No would ever dare intentionally try to injure another player again if that means risking their season or career too.  An eye for an eye.  Payback.  

And if it’s coached, ban them like Payton except longer.  Careers are built on winning.  And without checks and balances some will win at all costs.  The only check that can work is one that is career ending   

Sure, some aggressive defenses may weaken and the rule may favor more scoring.  But I’ll take that over more MSUs.  

The above would likely never be implemented.  Too many “traditional” football critics.  But this is how far you would need to go to eliminate the MSU cultures in football.  

 

 

Joined: 03/09/2012

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Erik_in_Dayton

November 13th, 2022 at 8:21 AM ^

I understand how it sounds to say that we shouldn't play MSU. And I don't see them leaving Michigan's schedule any time soon. But this is not a "settle it on the field" situation. There is something wrong with MSU's culture that is bigger than wins and losses and that can't be fixed by beating them. The Big Ten and/or the NCAA need to step in here.

Joined: 12/03/2008

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phoolishphil

November 13th, 2022 at 1:54 PM ^

I do remember Dantonio smiling in the background when the Spartan wall was walking (late) over the field and Bush.  Dantonio said he wasn't out there, another BS deflecting blame leadership example. 

I know there is a better picture somewhere on the internet...but  I found this one.   

See the source image

Joined: 02/13/2019

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Wolverine 73

November 13th, 2022 at 11:21 AM ^

Dantonio may have created it, but based on the JUB tweets, Tucker has fully bought into it and is perpetuating it.  It needs to be addressed by the school, and if MSU’s leadership doesn’t do something, by the league.  And if the league doesn’t, by the NCAA.  Or perhaps the Washtenaw County prosecutor will send a message that gets everyone’s attention?

Joined: 08/03/2009

MGoPoints: 27282

rice4114

November 14th, 2022 at 2:27 AM ^

Legal and moral disasters like what happened at Penn State and later U of M and MSU have nothing to do with punishing athletic departments or football teams decades later. This is a “horrible people” and not an “unfair advantage” thing. These horrible people need to be prosecuted but pulling some kids scholarship or not letting some kids play in a bowl game? No thats not what you do.

Joined: 08/26/2010

MGoPoints: 47374

jhayes1189

November 13th, 2022 at 12:02 PM ^

Agreed, this reminds of the New Orleans Saints situation. Investigations should continue and play out, but it’s looking like MSU should be put on some kind of probation….make an example of them, assign an unbiased team to audit their team activities (meetings, practices, locker room, games) for a year….

but of course since Kevin Warren’s son plays there, they will likely continue to do squat. It’s just obvious from the general quantum energy that come from the team and fanbase that something is waaaay off in East Lansing. 

Joined: 10/04/2021

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wolverine1987

November 13th, 2022 at 8:24 AM ^

I don't know, I think accounts like this are owed some degree of skepticism. It reminds me of that lawyer letter talking about how M players were the ones starting the fights. There's enough blame on video itself to punish the MSU players responsible. I'm not saying it isn't true though. 

Joined: 07/07/2008

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bacon1431

November 13th, 2022 at 8:32 AM ^

Agreed. If MSU associated people said that Michigan staff and players were saying this, we’d probably dismiss it. Obviously more believable in reality because of what happened after the game but UM associated accounts sent to a UM historian and employee aren’t going to move the dial much IMO

Joined: 07/26/2008

MGoPoints: 25294

1VaBlue1

November 13th, 2022 at 9:04 AM ^

I understand the skepticism - what is reported as being said is egregiously bad, more so than anything else I've ever heard from a field.  But you cannot - CANNOT - publish the names of the sources.  People now get death threats because of how they vote.  Can you imagine what might happen to the sources if their identities were made public?

No thanks.  It's not worth publicizing their names...

Joined: 01/31/2016

MGoPoints: 127269

mtzlblk

November 14th, 2022 at 11:54 AM ^

The letter WERE originally sent to the Big10 with the identity of the parties writing the letters included.

They were sent to JUB after the Big10 took no action, again with the identities included, it is JUB who is withholding their identities in his article to not make public because there would undoubtedly be backlash. 

Actually pretty bold of the people top stand up and send in the letters, if their names get out you know exactly what some segment of the Spartan fanbase will do with that information.

I do wish these people had thought to take out their phones and record some of it, it would remove all doubt as to whether it occurred and only leave MSU slappies with the "M players do it too" option.

Joined: 01/20/2009

MGoPoints: 5019

rc90

November 13th, 2022 at 9:00 AM ^

I agree that these comments shouldn't be taken at face value, but with the context of the tunnel attack, it has to be taken seriously. If I were the Big Ten, at the very least I would be talking with the officiating crew, asking explicit questions about if they heard any calls from State coaches and staff to hurt Michigan players. And again with the context of the tunnel attacks, the Big Ten should be doing the equivalent of the UN sending people to monitor elections.

There are credible accusations that Michigan State's culture is just broken, and people quite literally have been hurt. At this point the powers that be need to find out for themselves if it's just rogue players or if the staff is leading players down this path. The Big Ten cannot just go Pontius Pilate on this.

Joined: 02/15/2016

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Hensons Mobile…

November 13th, 2022 at 9:45 AM ^

This is a rivalry that has seen players actually rip helmets off, twist helmets, cheap shot punches, etc. For all the apparent "Break his arm! Hit his knees!" instruction, I don't recall any particular viciousness on the field in that game. Maybe I am forgetting or it wasn't picked up on TV. My point being, I don't know if this "literally injure the Michigan player" was really as prominent as this post from Bacon implies.

Also, as for refs being yelled at, whatever, man. If it's that bad, throw a flag, you can do that.

And a scuffle immediately at the end of the game after the whistle is not unprecedented.

Looks like a lot of this stuff is just people looking for something to complain about.

Again, that's not to say that anything here is untrue or to say that MSU's sideline wasn't more grotesque than your normal sideline. But, none of this is really means much to me.

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