Inverted Veer/Toss Read
About that run game. There's an article from Smart Football during the off season - http://smartfootball.com/offense/the-evolution-of-the-inverted-veerpower-read-and-of-alabama-and-clemsons-newest-wrinkle-the-toss-read#sthash.J8NxPKmE.oOIwwG3g.dpbs
scroll down to the bottom - "Inverted veer for the non-running QB + toss read"
with Speight? Yeah, no shot at running that. With O'Korn? Maybe.
I think the key to developing a run game is get the defense moving laterally, even for a half step, instead of downfield the entire time.
October 2nd, 2017 at 9:15 PM ^
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:29 PM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 6:32 AM ^
Get off my lawn!
October 2nd, 2017 at 9:34 PM ^
October 2nd, 2017 at 9:29 PM ^
October 2nd, 2017 at 9:36 PM ^
October 2nd, 2017 at 9:45 PM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 8:34 AM ^
Including Zone Read and speed option. I believe he also ran some actual veer from the pistol and possibly even Power Read. So yes, besides what Harbaugh has done at San Fran, he's implemented option elements everywhere he's been.
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:11 PM ^
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:24 PM ^
Yeah it's Denards fault the defense and coaching sucked, lol
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:36 PM ^
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:53 PM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 12:27 AM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 12:44 AM ^
He had raw passing talent and great arm strength coming in to Michigan. He could throw on the run relatively well. If he had been provided with some coaching, he might have developed into a better passer.
October 3rd, 2017 at 8:29 AM ^
When he was afforded the chance to step into throws, he could utilize his body to generate a lot of torque and get good speed on the football. But it wasn't arm strength, that's why his down field passing generally was highly inaccurate (or as opponents called it, arm punts). He had a good enough arm for the college game, let's not make it out like he was Matt Stafford with legs if only he had QB coaching.
October 3rd, 2017 at 10:11 AM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 1:23 AM ^
QB1: Soph. yr stats: 223/382, 58.4%, 2526 yds, 6.6 y/a, 23:8 TD:INT, 129.6 Pass Rating
QB2: Soph. yr stats: 182/289, 62.5%, 2570 yds, 8.8 y/a, 18:11 TD:INT, 149.6 Pass Rating
Which is better?
Oh yeah, QB2 also ran for 1702 yards that year, at 6.6 ypc. But QB1 was slow and looks like a traditional Michigan QB, so he was obviously better.
October 3rd, 2017 at 8:55 AM ^
Overall stats can be misleading. Denard's stats from 2010 are constantly misunderstood, but that's the "benefit" of a spread offense.
A great deal of Denard's completions on his way to 62.5% were bubble screens and hitches that Rodriguez rolled him to. It was an extremely simplified passing game, because that's all Robinson could handle. Additionally, a big chunk of his numbers came on plays that popped open because defenses respected his run threat, so then he would chuck it to Roy Roundtree up the seam on RPOs.
Of course, his running ability shouldn't be held against him, but when teams could force Michigan into passing situations, Denard was pretty useless. At some point all quarterbacks have to be able to pass the ball downfield effectively if they want to win, and Denard couldn't do that consistently at all. He hit some jump balls to Hemingway, but his downfield passing was a crapshoot.
Evidence?
Robinson threw more INTs (39) than any QB in Michigan history on only 747 attempts. Henne is #2 but on 1,387 attempts. Gardner threw 32 on 787 attempts. Navarre threw 31 on 1,366 attempts. Grbac threw 31 on 835 attempts.
So in an era when Rodriguez created a bunch of easy throws (a.k.a. "long handoffs") with bubble screens and RPOs, Robinson still turned the ball over at an extremely high rate.
P.S. Think of all the great running quarterbacks who at least got a shot to play QB in the NFL (Tim Tebow, Randall Cunningham, Michael Vick, Pat White, etc.), and then consider that not a single NFL team wanted to give Denard a sniff at QB.
October 3rd, 2017 at 9:39 AM ^
We all loved Denard and what he brought to Michigan football during his (2009-2012) tenure. But all that love should not obscure the fact that Denard just was not a very good passing QB.
The 2012 ND game highlights this fact. Denard was a senior, had played or started at QB for three previous seasons. This 2012 season was, I believe, Brady Hoke's second. During that ND game Denard was 13 of 24 (.542) for 138 yards, no TDs, and four INTs. Some of us recall that after that game Denard actually apologized to the fanbase for his lackluster performance. Granted the game was a kind of defensive struggle --- ND only scored one TD and two FGs for a 13-6 win (M's only scores were a couple Gibbons FGs) --- but that doesn't change Denard's senior-season subpar effort.
Unless someone has contrary information, Denard might now be out of professional football. We wish him all the best in whatever his future brings him.
October 3rd, 2017 at 8:48 PM ^
If Robinson's 62.5% completion rate was inflated by short completions, you'd expect his yards per completion to be less than Henne's, but they weren't. Put another way, if Henne were throwing those difficult, beautiful, long NFL throws as you claim, why was his yards per completion so much lower than Denard's?
Of course, Henne was throwing to Jason Avant, Mario Manningham, and Steve Breaston that year -- three WRs who would go on to play in the NFL for a collective 23 years. Denard's top three targets in 2010 were Roy Roundtree, Darryl Stonum, and Junior Hemingway. By my count, those three WRs went on to collect 233 yards collectively in the NFL. (I suppose that is Denard's fault too, somehow?)
Ah, but I'm sure the threat of those beautiful, long NFL throws from Henne opened the running for Michigan, right? Yet Mike Hart averaged 4.4 yards per carry, for 662 yards that year (versus Denard's 6.6 yards per carry, for 1700+ yards). Please explain how those fewer yards were actually hard-fought and therefore more valuable, because Carr's system wasn't designed to create running holes (or yards) like RR's was.
Denard's interception rate (the only stat you mention, discounting completion percentage or yards/attempt or yards/completion) that year (3.78%) (throwing to Roundtree, Stonum, et al.) was comparable to Elvis Grbac's career interception rate (3.71%) (throwing to Desmond Howard), slightly above Jim Harbaugh's career interception rate (3.55%) and slightly below Jim Harbaugh's interception rate in 1986 (3.97%), when Harbaugh finished 3rd in the Heisman. (Indeed, Harbaugh's 1986 numbers align fairly close to Denard's in 2010, when Denard finished 6th in the Heisman voting. Harbaugh completed 180 of 277, for 2729 yards, with 10 TDs and 11 INTs.)
Finally, I shouldn't even have to make this point, because again, we were talking about Denard in college (and specifically in 2010, before Al Borges and Brady Hoke committed crimes against humanity at Michigan, and before Denard was injured) and as a college QB, but Denard was drafted to be a RB/WR in the NFL. Timmy Chang never played a (non-preseason) snap in the NFL, neither did Dan LeFevour. Kliff Kingsbury attempted two passes in the NFL. Does that mean we can write off all of their accomplishments as college QBs as well?
October 3rd, 2017 at 9:24 PM ^
I'm not going to address every single point, because I don't have the time.
However, as I said above, at some point a quarterback has to be able to throw the ball effectively in order to win tough games and/or championships in modern football. Denard was unable to do that consistently at all. He was a great runner, but as for being a quarterback, he was only so-so because he wasn't very good at the thing that's at least 50% of his job (a.k.a. throwing the ball).
October 4th, 2017 at 2:06 AM ^
"If Robinson's 62.5% completion rate was inflated by short completions, you'd expect his yards per completion to be less than Henne's, but they weren't." if all else were equal. But you, I, the entire board, the entire UM fan base realize this was not the case. Chad, like almost all pro-style qbs threw to moving targets, but targets that were heavily defended, thereby mitigating the ypc stat. Conversely, DR threw to targets that although standing still very often due to Denard's running ability, were as unattached as the boy that forgets his deodorant at the Frinday night dance. When they were done playing catch, they turned, ran as far as they could and would be tackled from behind. No way were Denard and Chad playing the same game. C'mon bro.
October 2nd, 2017 at 11:49 PM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 12:05 AM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 12:06 AM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 6:25 AM ^
Well that escalated quickly!
October 2nd, 2017 at 11:50 PM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 4:05 AM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 12:58 AM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 8:35 AM ^
Michigan has run some zone read stuff at Michigan with Speight. O'Korn ran some in the spring, IIRC. Obviously, there was some stuff with Jabrill Peppers, too.
October 3rd, 2017 at 10:15 AM ^
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:03 PM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 6:26 AM ^
... I'll get on it!
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:14 PM ^
There's no way. Besides the fact that we don't have a backup QB if O'Korn gets hurt, you think this offensive line could run the veer?
October 3rd, 2017 at 8:31 AM ^
Just utilizes Power O blocking. Veer mostly just uses inside zone blocking. Depending on the scheme, you may leave a guy unblocked, but it would be no different for the OL than Inside Zone with a Wham block or Power O without the FB kickout block. They can execute these blocks.
That still doesn't mean it makes sense to run it.
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:17 PM ^
is throwing well, and if Speight is out for the season, I would like to see O'Korn scramble if needed and then Veer out of bounds. I know he mobile and gutsy - but lets keep the hits on him at a minimum.
October 2nd, 2017 at 11:03 PM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 8:32 AM ^
There were several articles written, on this blog, about this during the Denard era. You're right. Running QB's tend to suffer no more or less injuries than non running QB's and suffer less injuries at or past the line of scrimmage.
Not only can they anticipate more but defenders don't have time to build up speed like they do in a sack. Also, it tends to be defensive backs that tackle running QB"s rather than 300+ pound linemen.
Hell, our defense will hit a passing QB every single play that they can get away with. Id much rather get tackled by our CB's or Safeties than Hurst, Gary, or Winnovich.
October 3rd, 2017 at 3:58 PM ^
If running the QB is a staple (rather than a change up) then defenses expect it and then, yes, the QB as runner is exposed to hits from full speed LB's and safeties, especially secondary hits occuring after they are stood up on first contact... just like a RB.
October 2nd, 2017 at 10:49 PM ^
October 2nd, 2017 at 11:17 PM ^
Is likely to sell out on containment at the ends and inside. They're going to dare us to throw the medium and long balls. I believe OK can hit enough of those strikes and overload the line with his own feet now and then that we'll win. But I suspect we're going to have a ferkin time running the ball whether IVTR or other scheme. Ten Staee players and maybe all eleven are gonna try their damndest to contain all forms of run and risk the throws. 0.02
October 3rd, 2017 at 8:49 AM ^
October 3rd, 2017 at 4:37 AM ^
tunnel screens, throwbacks, just ding the DL as the OL lets them all thru, then throw over the top for the buffalo stampede!
I LOL'd when remembering how Heiko asked Gorgeous Al: What about bubble screens to counteract defensive overagressiveness and total lack of fear of the pass, and Al was like ??? You consider that a solution????? (we've got 23 for 23 dude!!!)
Rudock made some nice gains and more importantly first down pickups with his feet when nobody was available. Although he seemed to get blown up sliding down on the ground a lot. We're getting a little thin at that position this year. All for it when it comes down to crunch time though.