Friday night discussion: Sam Webb & John U Bacon talk on if Michigan can be elite
Hey all.
The weather is shite, I can't go out, and I'm bored. So I thought I'd start a friendly Friday night convo regarding an interesting discussion Webb and Bacon had the WTKA podcast this morning.
The question: can Michigan become elite by using the "Michigan approach" in that we focus our recruiting objectives on kids that have high character, who will graduate with minimal academic risk? Basically, staying away from the rampant improper recruiting approaches (i.e. paying players, etc) that is utilized by just about every major program today.
Webb: Believes we can, but we need to get innovative with our recruiting approach and coaching style. Getting anywhere near a top 5 class would be a rarity going forward still.
Bacon: Not anymore. As for 2016, he said "absolutely yes", but not anymore. He went so far as to say that we'll never be Alabama/Clemson, and we may only beat OSU once every 7 years, but as long we do it the "Michigan way", most fans will ok with that. (Yikes!)
Me: We can be elite, but we have to start using the same recruiting practices as Alabama/OSU/Georgia. If we decide not to, then the slow decline of Michigan football will continue. Therefore, this next hire might be the most important hire in the history of Michigan football.
Mgoblog. What say you?
December 11th, 2020 at 9:53 PM ^
Michigan will never be elite again. “Very good" is the ceiling.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:58 PM ^
It’s taken a historic run of bad luck for OSU to do what they have done us. Go back and look at the games. Don’t focus on the last two. Look since 2001 and you’ll see that is been bad coaching more then a talent gap. The one position they have destroyed us in is QB. We are not developing the talent that we get. There might be disagreements this but I believe
2003 and 2011 out right wins
2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2016 and 2017 toss ups
2006, 2013 toss ups so spilt this to 1-1
2007 injuries but that team was unleashed in the bowl game. They would have beat anyone that day. Even with the rare Mike Hart fumbles.
2008, 2009, 2010, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019 bad loses and bad coaching and game plans on defense.
record should be 10 - 9. You could argue but this has been an amazing run of bad luck.
if this were true there would be 4 more BIG titles 2 playoff appearances and possible 1 national championship appearance.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:37 PM ^
Lol. Stop.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:42 PM ^
I say these conversations are getting exhausting. But sure, I’ll play along.
My two cents is that you don’t have to cheat to reach near elite status. You probably do need to cheat if you want to be elite EVERY single year. Michigan is capable of beating OSU 2-4 times a decade with good recruiting AND great coaching/development. Harbaugh came up short and that’s unfortunate, but he nearly succeeded.
I respect Bacon but disagree that things have changed that drastically since 2016. The thing that changed the most since then is Harbaugh himself.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:44 PM ^
Why do we care what John U Bacon thinks? The guy profits off turmoil in our Football program.
Stop giving him oxygen.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:54 PM ^
I've gotten negged for this before but Michigan has been a 9-3 team for decades now, and I honestly think that's sort of in the DNA. Could Michigan be better than they are now for spurts? Absolutely. But I see them more like an Auburn, PSU, or LSU-type team, which is good enough most years and if the stars align can be great for a season or two. But Michigan isn't a football factory, and being so isn't likely to happen unless dramatic changes happen both in Ann Arbor AND across the college football landscape.
December 11th, 2020 at 11:17 PM ^
Our ceiling is probably Wisconsin. Good teams, never quite good enough though. Our floor would be Northwestern. They're good once a decade
December 12th, 2020 at 12:06 AM ^
A Big Ten minus OSU would be awesome. There would be healthy parity. OSU really needs to join the SEC with which it has (in my opinion), closer cultural, political and football alignment. Everyone wins.
December 11th, 2020 at 11:21 PM ^
Good topic for discussion, but realistically, let's concern ourselves with how we become the Michigan who dominates MSU and is superior to PSU, Wisconsin, Indiana, etc. I would be ecstatically happy -- in the short- to medium-term, anyway -- with a Michigan team that achieves a consistent rank of 2nd in the Big Ten East while being at least competitive with OSU most years.
December 12th, 2020 at 1:54 PM ^
But you wouldn't be "ecstatically happy" is the thing. After the past couple of years you'd be grateful, but very quickly that would cede to bitterness that we couldn't get past osu to win the East often enough!
The Michigan Man trademarked outcry of "UNACCEPTABLE" would be heard again throughout the Michigan world.
We are who we are, and tho right now it looks like we've fallen behind Indiana & Northwestern, we're never settling for admitting we can't be the winningest team again.
We'll all be calling for rules changes, conference realignment, or just plain flouting the rules and calling that the "high ground" - the evidence is in this thread, as all those are suggested within.
December 12th, 2020 at 2:50 PM ^
If you are using "you" to literally mean me, then read my post. What I have gotten past is the idea that we can beat OSU 40-50% of the time.
But you are hopefully using "you" to mean "Michigan fans" and there you're probably right, at least for a sizeable percentage of them. I have just become so fucking jaded that I don't see beating OSU a decent percentage of the time as even realistic. We should be focusing on being superior to PSU, Wisconsin, and (current iteration) Indiana and dominating MSU. Thinking about getting to OSU's level can be a consideration down the road.
December 11th, 2020 at 11:33 PM ^
Let's hear Bacon make some more excuses for why Harbaugh has failed to recruit a functional interior defensive line. Forget Bama/Clemson/OSU, we need someone to keep us from becoming Texas or Tenn.
December 12th, 2020 at 9:43 AM ^
Too late!
December 11th, 2020 at 11:34 PM ^
A big problem for Michigan is guys like John Bacon writing ridiculous books and Sam Webb tweeting out things like he is in the staff. The university and fan base is horribly arrogant and hypocrites. People on the outside see MSU as the university who accepts the disadvantaged kid to help him become advantaged while Michigan talks but doesn’t want that kid in their world. Michigan also cheats as much as everyone else but it’s naive fanbase has ZERO clue about the real world.
December 12th, 2020 at 11:44 AM ^
I always imagined Michigan is the type of program that only "cheats" in some self-assured way that makes the guilty party feel justified ?. Maybe helping a kid provide food for his family or a small prepaid debit card to cover traveling expenses. Either way, cheating is breaking the rules. Then again I could be completely wrong and Michigan is ran by the book. Whats more likely?
December 12th, 2020 at 11:48 AM ^
My guess is that some schools "cheat" to help the athletes once they are signed and on campus trying to live life. Other schools "cheat" to get the athletes to sign.
December 12th, 2020 at 2:24 PM ^
EXACTLY!
And conflating the 2 serves only the latter, which is why I don't like the Michigan world doing it!
December 12th, 2020 at 12:19 AM ^
Bacon is correct in that Michigan can’t be on OSU/Bama/Clemson level without committing to be a football factory. Sam is just being naive.
Michigan’s problem is that unlike those schools, it’s a world class academic institution not a safety school. However, in basketball there are elite academic places that are also factories, e.g. Duke, UNC. So maybe it’s possible to be both, though none I can think of in football.
December 12th, 2020 at 12:48 AM ^
As long as the CFP remains as it is, 4 teams, then Bama, Clemson and OSU will get the lion's share of the 5 star recruits and crashing the party is virtually impossible.
Expansion to 8 teams is the only way to spread the top talent and allow some other teams to rise to that level.
If Michigan refuses to drop the "Michigan Way", beating OSU will only happen once every 20 years. Which means no conference titles either.
UM doesn't have to use bagmen, but needs to get younger coaches that can adapt to change quicker and can win sometimes when they aren't supposed to and maybe get lucky and get selected. Then recruit great and keep it going.
December 12th, 2020 at 1:23 AM ^
The University could careless about having an elite football program. The president and AD will be happy with a clean run program that has high graduation rates. This will cause us to keep Harbaugh several more years. The only wildcard would be if Harbaugh jumps to the NFL.
December 12th, 2020 at 5:52 AM ^
If this pandemic has shown us anything, it's that the University of Michigan should continue to offer all online courses, for specific degrees, for the student athletes. It's a competitive edge Alabama, Clemson, Florida, Georgia, OSU and many others have over us. It certainly wouldn't hurt Michigan's athletic department to do that. I don't think it would hurt the reputation of Michigan's academics either.
December 12th, 2020 at 8:17 AM ^
I wanna win games
December 12th, 2020 at 9:23 AM ^
Is it cheating when our coach can't develop one decent quarterback, and QBs leave the program like it's on fire? Is it cheating when our defense recruits slow DBs but still schemes like they have blazing speed and get smoked? Is it cheating that we have been unable to find decent, long-term assistants who provide stability? Is it cheating that our coach has the attention span of a five year old and can't decide how he wants to play and whom he wants to run his offense and defense?
Was it cheating when we hired Rich Rod and immediately undermined him? Was it cheating when we hired a Michigan Man who was unprepared for the rigors of running a Big Time college program? Was it cheating when we hired a failed CEO to be AD who had absolutely no clue what Michigan was really about?
Yeah, let's blame it on the other guys acting bad. That's easier.
December 12th, 2020 at 9:28 AM ^
And, boom.
The cheating narrative just adds to the mirage that is “everyone except us cheats and that’s why we don’t win football games.”
Just stop.
December 12th, 2020 at 9:38 AM ^
Yes, it was all cheating - cheating ourselves!
December 12th, 2020 at 9:51 AM ^
Lol at the idea that the reason Michigan isn’t getting top 5 classes is because of the Michigan way. Michigan recruits all the guys that go to bama, osu, and clemson, we just lose those recruiting battles
December 12th, 2020 at 2:47 PM ^
I feel like you're so close to getting the arguments being made here, and yet... just beyond your fingertips!
Michigan recruits those guys, but they darn it all keep piling up at the same few schools, even when there's a logjam of 4 & 5⭐ ahead of them, instead of picking Michigan!
Is it Saban, Dabo, Urbz/Day charm? Or something else ?♂️
December 12th, 2020 at 5:48 PM ^
I know what you are implying and while you think you are being clever...how does it explain us losing to the likes of Indiana, MSU, barely beating fucking Rutgers. you were oooooh so close but logic was juuuust beyond your fingertips
December 12th, 2020 at 11:06 AM ^
Indiana. Trust me, they don’t cheat. Just admit it and cut bait, Harbaugh has just proven to be a dud. UM can easily get back on its feet.
JH was just not the savior he was purported to be. Certainly not a QB whisperer or anyone near it. The #1 position has been a ramshackle mess for six years. Don’t overanalyze it. It’s just football.
December 12th, 2020 at 11:20 AM ^
Urban Meyer just said blow it up, start over. The program and the university os too important to let this continue
December 12th, 2020 at 2:47 PM ^
Recruiting is in a circular relationship with culture. The blue print works because culture makes the framework come to life, and the framework makes it easier for a culture to thrive.
You don’t just adopt a blue print because it works for someone else. You adopt a blueprint to help a culture come to life. If the culture isn’t there, at least in a nascent sense, it doesn’t matter what blue print you use.
If it were that easy, everyone would be playing like the Kansas City Chiefs.
Culture > recruiting > talent development > results > back to culture
December 12th, 2020 at 3:26 PM ^
I don’t like the narrative that OSU, Bama, etc cheat. If they cheat turn them in! if you can’t prove it, then step up your own recruiting and coaching game. To blame cheating is a loser mentality.
Im tired of the Michigan is more focused on academics. I’m sorry but you can be a great academic institution and have a dominant football program. OSU has improved academically and is a powerhouse. To say both can’t happen is a loser mentality.
I don’t believe for a second that Michigan recruits clean. Rashan Gary tuned down 300k to play for free at Michigan? Not a chance in hell. Michigan cheats like other schools, maybe not at the same level. Might be why Harbaugh plays favorites. He has to keep the guys happy who have the dirt on recruiting.
Michigan’s problem is they need to rebuild the culture. They are too mentally fragile. As soon as something negative happens the team will fold.
Hire the right coach and things can turn around quickly. Michigan will always get top 10-15 classes recruiting. Develop the players and you can be a team that can beat OSU 2 of 5 years. Need to get the cycle right. Our best teams always seem to play OSU at their place. We need to have our best teams play the nuts in AA. Get a win and then things can progress from there. But have to beat all the other schools regularly.
December 12th, 2020 at 4:43 PM ^
Oh course Michigan can be elite.
December 12th, 2020 at 4:58 PM ^
If the best Michigan can hope for is to beat Ohio State once every seven years, the rivalry is dead. Michigan needs to aspire to win the Big Ten every year, and that needs to be the expectation for any new coach. If other teams are cheating, blow the whistle on them. Would it really be that hard to persuade some kids turned off by people promising payments to go on the record? Isn’t there a US attorney looking to burnish his resume and raise his profile who would take on such a case? If everyone, including Michigan, is already cheating, learn how better to cheat.
December 12th, 2020 at 6:15 PM ^
We can debate the elite status till the cows come home. Nobody has a crystal ball so that’s that, however to have a team at least look prepared to play, have a coach know how to use clock management and timeouts, plus have the players at least having some fun is not that much to ask for from an employee knocking down $8 million bucks is it?