Friday night discussion: Sam Webb & John U Bacon talk on if Michigan can be elite
Hey all.
The weather is shite, I can't go out, and I'm bored. So I thought I'd start a friendly Friday night convo regarding an interesting discussion Webb and Bacon had the WTKA podcast this morning.
The question: can Michigan become elite by using the "Michigan approach" in that we focus our recruiting objectives on kids that have high character, who will graduate with minimal academic risk? Basically, staying away from the rampant improper recruiting approaches (i.e. paying players, etc) that is utilized by just about every major program today.
Webb: Believes we can, but we need to get innovative with our recruiting approach and coaching style. Getting anywhere near a top 5 class would be a rarity going forward still.
Bacon: Not anymore. As for 2016, he said "absolutely yes", but not anymore. He went so far as to say that we'll never be Alabama/Clemson, and we may only beat OSU once every 7 years, but as long we do it the "Michigan way", most fans will ok with that. (Yikes!)
Me: We can be elite, but we have to start using the same recruiting practices as Alabama/OSU/Georgia. If we decide not to, then the slow decline of Michigan football will continue. Therefore, this next hire might be the most important hire in the history of Michigan football.
Mgoblog. What say you?
December 11th, 2020 at 9:54 PM ^
Need a new univ president who values athletics.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:43 PM ^
Yeah fire the university president in order to get better football.
This isn't Alabama and doubt you went to Michigan.
December 12th, 2020 at 12:35 AM ^
UM is a world-class institution that makes the world a better place by pumping out cutting-edge research and preparing world leaders. The university trains some of the finest doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, etc. on earth. Football is cool, but it isn't actually that important.
But yeah, the president should be focused on football. Come on.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:03 PM ^
I'm ashamed to admit it, but I'm kinda coming around to your view. A couple years ago, I would have been adamantly opposed to anything but the "Michigan Way." But I'm sick of losing to the cheaters and I'm sick of the NCAA allowing the cheaters to go unpunished. Michigan has been in a decade and a half decline because other teams have figured out there is no recourse for cheating and have surged ahead.
I don't know man. *Shakes head in despair.* We can be Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame and have a magical season once a decade when the stars align, or we can be Alabama, OSU, and Clemson and play for a playoff spot every year. But we can't be both. The last 15 years have proven that.
December 11th, 2020 at 7:34 PM ^
I'm with John.
December 11th, 2020 at 7:38 PM ^
IMO we can absolutely get back to at least close to elite status. Michigan though, needs to realize it needs to go to the nuclear option that Webb is sugar coating. Hiring Harbaugh was our last "the right way" stance, and until player compensation becomes universal we will be mired in mediocrity without blowing up what's currently in place. Again only my opinion.
I've lived in Ohio for awhile now and saw the buckeyes go all in, over a decade ago, that they had change out of necessity. It wasn't pretty and they went through a lot of scandalous (cheating) events to get where they are a now...the moral dilemma for Michigan, are they willing to go down that road? It's clear you can't just dip your toe into the pool and call it swimming.
December 11th, 2020 at 7:44 PM ^
I just don’t see how a team with our facilities, wealth, and national clout cannot manage to be a contender for a national title regularly.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:01 PM ^
Problem with this argument is that every program has amazing facilities now. Also, all the top programs have wealthy boosters who are more than willing to contribute to the cause. Finally, the last 14 years have evaporated most of our national clout!
December 11th, 2020 at 8:56 PM ^
We’ve had two top-10 recruiting classes in the last four cycles (using 247 rankings). Sure, our clout has diminished, but you don’t pull in that kind of ranking without some clout.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:12 PM ^
Facilities, wealth, and clout have diminishing returns. QUICKLY diminishing returns.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:03 PM ^
But you’d say they’re essential, right? Every teams that’s won a title in the last 10 years has had them, probably a decade before too. If so, is it just that we are the right coach away, or is there something else at play preventing our success?
December 11th, 2020 at 10:20 PM ^
My theory is that several decades ago, fear of an SMU death penalty chastened most teams from the worst abuses. Most schools were trying to be clean and trying to maintain the student-athlete ideal as mandated by the NCAA (or at least not cheating so goddam much). In that environment, Michigan could recruit and compete with anyone, and we did. Now we're not playing by the same rules anymore because the NCAA won't enforce its mandate. The NCAA has essentially admitted it will never hand down such a sentence again. Thus players can be eligible and not know how to read at UNC, Penn State can cover up a pedophile to protect its football program, Baylor football can carve a swathe of destruction through the female student body and still play since it fired its coach, and any number of teams can pay players like SMU of old. Any one of these offenses should have warranted the death penalty. Given that none did, of course schools will cheat.
Michigan has been left behind. I'm not so naive as to think Michigan doesn't make some allowances for athletes or that some players aren't getting a fat handshake by some booster somewhere, but we know for a fact Michigan doesn't recruit everyone it could and it does more than just pay lip service to trying to be a clean program. Doing things the Michigan Way is preventing our success because the NCAA is allowing other teams to do things the SMU Way (or worse).
December 12th, 2020 at 2:30 AM ^
This is an excellent take on what has really happened. Because almost every major program cheats a little they are basically self blackmailed into silence. At some point when Alabama, Clemson and OSU make up 3/4ths of the playoff for the umpteenth time in a row, will some collection of schools finally say forget it we are going public about this back room shit? Sadly that is probably the only way the NCAA will ever be forced to do something to create an even playing field.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:06 PM ^
When comparing Michigan’s football facilities to other top-end schools, they still are rather meh.
Yes, Michigan’s facilities are way better than before, but look at what your top programs have for facilities now.
December 11th, 2020 at 7:44 PM ^
I don’t know man.
Last year our QB was the #4 overall high school recruit in his class. We had the #4 RB in his class. We had the #1, 15, and 23rd ranked WRs. We had 4 O lineman selected in the 2020 draft. Sure didn’t look like it on the field. I have no idea how to fix it but that should be enough talent, at least on the offensive side of the ball, regardless of a new OC.
December 12th, 2020 at 8:19 AM ^
Agreed. And for the "hundredth" time I will state that my personal experience declares that while having talent is critical unless the requisite coaching accompanies it that talent will be squandered. Michigan football, primarily, underperforms because of poor coaching. Here, objectively, Ed Warinner is the only solid position coach on staff. The kids Jim Harbaugh and staff have recruited have plenty of talent-enough to win 10+ games a year...they should be winning 11 or 12 as often as they are winning 8 to 10.
Coach Harbaugh has many stellar qualities but, as a HC, he has lost the traits required to compete in a winning way. For me, the issue is that this is cheating the kids he is bringing in to play on this very large stage. The lines drawn here are, for me, not as cut and dried as they are for many. However, I do believe that the players deserve better from the playing of the game side. The AD has many things to weigh in the balance here but, today, the floor of this program is getting lower and lower.
December 11th, 2020 at 7:45 PM ^
Didn’t listen, but I go back to the Wiltfong comments where he said there are no recruiting meetings and position coaches just go to certain regions and pick guys they think are good fits. Then with the loss of Partridge, recruiting took a turn for the worse. Get some guys who love recruiting and make it a priority. Maybe have, IDK, recruiting meetings. That might be a start. Probably can’t be top 5 every year, but that shouldn’t matter. Other smaller schools upset better teams and Michigan doesn’t. That isn’t on recruiting. OSU is not unbeatable because of recruiting advantage, they’ve lost to bad teams. Not a lot, but enough.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:10 PM ^
I would hope there would be meetings and a big board somewhere with names and rankings of potential recruits for each year and position.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:16 PM ^
Harbaugh wears the same outfit everyday so he doesn’t have to make decisions. What kind of mental breakdown would a big board with a bunch of recruits names on it bring on?
December 11th, 2020 at 9:07 PM ^
Well, I mean Harbaugh is but a husk of a functioning human at this point.
December 12th, 2020 at 7:04 AM ^
Total misrepresentation of why people wear the same clothes everyday. It is not so they don't have to make any decisions. It is so they don't have to make a clothing decisions which frees them up to make other decisions. The idea being that we have limited bandwidth and should avoid using up some of that bandwidth on mundane decisions.
December 12th, 2020 at 7:17 AM ^
Haha hahahahaha hahahahaha. People really believe that dribble.
BTW I don’t care what past genius did it either. In the end the reason is just some mumbo jumbo to try to convince people you aren’t strange. Congrats you fell for it.
Next up is the Harbaugh traffic cop story. In reality Jim didn’t know how to get home without two TEs and a fullback
December 12th, 2020 at 8:29 AM ^
Where did i say i believe this works? I said "the idea being..." Which was trying to convey why people might do this. Maybe you should try it, you obviously are a little short on mental bandwidth.
December 12th, 2020 at 8:53 AM ^
Oh man you got me. My mental bandwidth is so low I better have a closest full of the same clothes. Man what a burn
December 12th, 2020 at 8:01 AM ^
Saban eats the same lunch everyday so he doesn’t have to waste time deciding what to have
He makes other decisions just fine as shown by his record
December 11th, 2020 at 7:46 PM ^
If Notre Dame can compete for a NC, we should be able to as well. Maybe not every year but consistently a top 10 program. Coaching change has to happen IMO.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:08 PM ^
Forget this fluke year. What is the best team that ND had to beat the year they got to the playoff in 2018?
Candidates:
- 9-4 Stanford (in South Bend)
- 10-3 Michigan (in South Bend ... I was there ... yack)
See any Alabama / Clemson / OSU kind of teams in that list?
Look at 2012:
- 12-2 Stanford (in South Bend ... this is the best one so far)
- 10-3 Oklahoma (in Norman ... good win)
Good teams, but not OSU-level. (Bunch of dogs on the rest of the 2012 schedule ...)
December 11th, 2020 at 8:30 PM ^
Give us ND or Oklahoma or USC schedules and we'd have multiple playoff trips and everyone would be loving the state of our program.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:40 PM ^
How? We lose at least 2 regular season games every year.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:44 PM ^
You're dogging ND's schedule when twice they've gone 12-0 in the last ten years and beat us the same years...also if we were to go 11-1 and only lose to OSU we'd probably get in the playoff and your argument would make sense...but we've never done that.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:41 PM ^
ND relaxed their standards because Kelly asked them to. Have we?
December 11th, 2020 at 7:55 PM ^
We'll never be what Alabama or Clemson or OSU are consistently, but I don't think that many Michigan fans really expect to be. I don't think it's unreasonable for Michigan fans to expect a conference title or two every decade. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be a slightly better version of Wisconsin given our resources. It's certainly reasonable to expect better than a 0.25 win percentage in bowl games and be better than 2-12 against top ten teams.
The problem is the whole mindset around the football program is broken and has been for a while. Everything about the football program has been "Look at me, we're elite, I swear" from "Who's got it better than us" to the stupid James Earl Jones video, "Revenge tour", Chase Winovich calling OSU's win in 2018 a "mirage", and "speed in space". I could probably keep going.
Compare that to the basketball program and "Do more, say less".
December 11th, 2020 at 8:08 PM ^
Everything about the football program has been "Look at me, we're elite, I swear"
Damn brother, you hit the nail on the head! This program seriously needs to keep it's mouth shut and go to work until they actually accomplish something!
December 11th, 2020 at 10:00 PM ^
Agreed! Fix the culture and they players will play. Just because you so you’re great doesn’t make you great.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:09 PM ^
Resources are one thing, but Michigan will not admit the same caliber of player as Alabama. You can throw all the money in the world to coaches and buildings but if elite players can't get admitted, then the university is wasting it's money.
Put that money into lowering tuition or some other worthy cause.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:50 PM ^
Interesting, we somehow admitted Rashan Gary just a few years ago.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:03 PM ^
Lot of different factors here. Four team playoff has ruined college football. Make it eight and I think that changes things. I am not sure if Michigan can be elite but tear down the Bo statue and bring in a younger coach and leave him alone to do his thing.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:20 PM ^
8 or even 16. The exclusive 4 team CFP seems to coincide with and explain a lot of the rise of these permanent super programs lately
December 11th, 2020 at 11:57 PM ^
100% agree that the four team playoff has killed college football for the good-but-not-elite teams. I don't have the stats, but I'm guessing the star power is being concentrated among fewer teams more than at any time in history. Bowl games outside the CFP are meaningless with players sitting out. I know that my own interest has waned significantly in not just UM, but college football in general.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:04 PM ^
Am I the only one who’s bothered with the frequency that Bacon laughs at his own comments?
It’s an incredibly annoying habit. Especially for someone who’s on television and the radio as often as he is.
Every time I hear him nervously laugh at his own remark I think of Beavis.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:56 PM ^
Your comment is "shockingly" good.
December 12th, 2020 at 8:11 AM ^
Did you misspell Riprock on purpose by adding two "p's"?
December 11th, 2020 at 8:04 PM ^
Well, between Webb and Bacon, I think I find myself drawn a bit more to what Webb said - to get anywhere near it, the approach has to be different. Completely different, I would say. I would like to see something not even terribly Michigan because I think the culture really is stale and does need a shakeup like that. Now, the question would be this, I think - how far are they willing to go with that? As the OP mentions, we would have to adopt the best of the philosophies from the programs currently dominating in recruiting and see where that went, but would the stodgy old men who donate the funds go for that? Could they be sold on that?
December 11th, 2020 at 10:31 PM ^
THIS^^^
December 11th, 2020 at 8:04 PM ^
I think the "doing things the right way" excuse is such a cop-out. It might make sense if UM was getting every ounce of talent and production out of their players but just falling short to the powers of college football.
But assuming that UM is the only program doing things the right way still doesn't explain the fact that in year 6 JH's team can't run tempo and can't run a 2 minute drill, or play with any urgency when trailing. High school teams have that capability. It doesn't explain all the mental errors, jumping offsides, the insistence that old school run concepts slowly take over modern approaches to offense. It doesn't explain the abysmal clock management.
The real question is "how does UM get to its ceiling?" Because right now, I don't think the program is anywhere near where it can reach with its resources. Then you can start having the conversations and comparing it to the elite programs. Maybe UM will never get to where Bama or Clemson are, but that is worrying about 6 steps ahead.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:11 PM ^
Also no mention as to the basketball program and if they were doing things “the right way” under Beilein. That seemed to turn out all right under him but I’ve been drinking tonight...
December 11th, 2020 at 8:21 PM ^
I agree 100%. We're not close to maximizing what we have now. The team doesn't look prepared half the time out there and that's just basic coaching.
December 12th, 2020 at 12:42 AM ^
This is 1 million times correct. Michigan football has been the gold standard of underachievement since Bo was the head coach. The talent on this year's team, even minus the opt outs and McCaffrey transfer, should have been enough to go 6-2 or 5-3 if the stars really aligned against us. The talent level of the previous Harbaugh teams, if coached and schemed up properly, should have been good enough for 2 loss seasons AT WORST. The talent that Lloyd Carr pulled between 1997 and 2003 should've netted him at least one more national championship. History tells me that Michigan is certainly not getting the best out of its players and it's a crying shame.
Fix that within Schembechler Hall, recalibrate and then we'll probably understand why we don't have our own Death Star.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:05 PM ^
Absolutely makes sense. Our standards of academics will not bring in the same type of players as the SEC. We might hit it great a year or two but to have the level of dominance Bama has had will not happen.