Elephant in the room: Did Warinner know about Smith?
Per McMurphy’s column, Smith’s wife communicated about the abuse with other coaches’ wives, and through them word got to Meyer.
But did this mean that Warinner was also aware of the abuse? He was co-offensive coordinator in 2015 and had to be close with Smith. If word was getting around the staff, he HAD to know what was going on.
This is something that has to be addressed. Should this be a stain that the university and football program should just accept, or should this new information coming out cause the team to separate from Warinner?
August 1st, 2018 at 12:08 PM ^
Shit, hadn't thought about it. Needs to be asked though.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:46 PM ^
He might have known but not "known" if you catch up my drift. Regardless, he couldn't fire the guy and didn't lie about it to the media.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:55 PM ^
Yep. I hope these conversations are being had right now with an eye toward what action is appropriate. Might be no action. But it needs to be explored. This is an educational institution, and important lessons don't always come easy. But there are a lot of young men and women, both within the program and in the broader university community, who are being molded by the leaders on campus. This needs to be handled appropriately.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:59 PM ^
Fine. Ask the question. Then what? It's not like he had the authority to fire Smith, or do anything about it. Maybe he could have quit? This is nothing like the Mike Mcqueary thing.
Correct IMO. If he knew and said nothing, I wouldn't fire him since he has no ability to fire Smith--Meyer was the boss. and I'd say that if he coached any school
The whole thing about all the coaches wives knowing to me means everyone. So if Warinner knew, it was along with all of the other coaches, including the head man, Meyer. Putting myself in that position, my boss knows, his boss probably knows, and the police know. What am I going to do at that point?
During a one-on-one with Urban Meyer, you might raise the issue, ask if Ms. Smith is getting the protections she might need, ask how you are supposed to be teaching values to young men if this kind of behavior is being tolerated by the leaders in the locker room, and choose not to be satisfied with easy answers to those questions. There's a very easy starting point that would oppose a culture of silence. If you are told it's none of your business, you could threaten to escalate it or walk if it isn't handled. But there's a lot that can be done instead of nothing (which, in your scenario, is assuming someone else will handle it).
So now, we demand both to know what he knew and whether he ever brought it up in private conversation with Meyer?
Start a congressional investigation already. "Coach Warinner: did you ever ask Coach Meyer wtf he was doing about the Smith domestic violence rumors?"
This is a stupid thread. It wasn't his job to maintain any kind of organizational control over or accountability of Smith.
This is an odd take. The underlying question isn't whether Warinner upheld his organizational control duties during his time at Ohio State. And I don't think anyone is suggesting Warinner should be held accountable for the actions of Smith.
You have a guy in a prominent role in the locker room (and at the university as a whole) who was potentially involved in a culture of silence surrounding ongoing and long-term domestic abuse. The underlying questions are whether he contributed to that culture and whether he understands that it cannot be tolerated.
McQueary and Schiano have been blasted for having knowledge of abuse and not taking action to protect the victims. Rightfully so. If it came out that Warinner knew this abuse was happening and took no action to protect the victim, how would it be any different?
Yes, he could have quit. He could have said something. He contributed to a culture of silence and enablement that put football and reputation over peoples safety.
That said, it's really hard to be the one guy to "snitch" and rock the boat and this is why these situation happen so frequently and escalate to a point that people are like "how could happen, how could it go so far?" There's a whole study of organizational behavior that shows how and why these kinds of things happen over and over again.
So yeah, I don't think it's a terrible thing that Warinner wasn't able to be the hero in that case. Most people wouldn't stand up. But if I were Warde, I'd ask about it, ask what he knew, ask what he did, and make sure Warinner knows silence is an unacceptable response to something like this at Michigan. Warde should be encouraging a culture of openness to make it easy for people to come forward.
And that's something that should already be encouraged with everyone in the AD.
Bingo.
This is where upvotes are needed because this response deserves many.
You raise very good points and I completely agree with you.
Speaking as an employee of a Federal Inspector General office, this is a true statement. Being a whistle-blower is hard. Now, some people are "mandatory reporters" in some situations, usually those involving a child. I doubt that would have been Coach Warinner's situation, but there are times when a hard thing is legally required. However, it is still a hard thing to do.
Yeah, "mandatory reporters" of child abuse and neglect are usually based on profession, like social workers, teachers, counselors, care providers, etc. And that makes sense. Those people are the most likely to know/become aware of abuse and they should be trained and licensed and held accountable professionally to reporting.
Most situations aren't as black and white which is what Ed Warinner would have been in. From a psychological standpoint, it's more difficult to report a "peer" as Smith essentially was to Warinner than it would be to report a subordinate. So again, he should feel terrible, he could have done something, he had the opportunity to help someone and didn't, but should he be punished for having not done anything? Probably not. To someone in his position, it's a learning experience.
The people with more power and more responsibility (Urban, Gene Smith) should be held more accountable to that power and responsibility. And they're the ones that set the tone on culture.
" This is nothing like the Mike Mcqueary thing"
I wouldn't be so quick to jump to that about any individuals involved in that program or university because... Title IX. It would depend an awful lot on whether they were someone required to report under Title IX if it were something that Title IX required be reported (which is a likely "yes").
I totally agree with this. The situation here is about judgement of hiring someone that may have had a track record. This is not knowing that something was happening under your nose like at PSU.
Thus, it is about criticism of the person that made the hiring decision, Urban, rather than any of his peers like Warriner.
Coach Wariner and his family live in Powell, Ohio. The next closest city is Dublin, Ohio. (less than 5 miles) The two of them were very connected and spent long days and nights together at Woody Hayes, and at each others homes during the season and camp. Not many people in the Columbus community or coaches like Smith. He is known as a diva, and a "fire-cracker". It was also known that Urb protected him and he was an Urb guy. His claim to fame is Michael Thomas (even though he's keyshawn Johnson nephew and it's god given talent, and elite coaching as a child).
Many people wanted him gone for years now, and Urb has continued to protect him. Some have speculated that this is because of Earl Bruce or because ZS knows where all the bodies are buried. Not sure if anyone else saw what ZS wife said but it was something like: ZS said if he was ever outed he would take the entire staff at OSU with him.
Back to Wariner for a bit. He HATES Urban. Not only did he screw over his kid and not offer him after it was said to be a promise, but he used him as a scapegoat for the team not winning his last year, even though he put more players in the draft than any other position coach during his tenure. The way he spoke to coach Wariner was out of control, and down right disrespectful Another thing that is out there is Vrabel slamming Urb at half time of the Clemson boat race a few years back, he apparently told Urb at that time, "I'm fucking done" and if you're not careful I'll put you in a hospital.
Wariner knew ZS was a shady character, and Mrs. Wariner probably knew that ZS was a domestic abuser. However, it's pretty clear that almost all the coaches knew this and no one wanted to go head to head with an Urb guy.
AT the end of the day, this will probably lead to a 2 game suspension so OSU can have their coach back for the TCU game in Jerry World. Or, people will continue to come out of the woodwork, his affair with a co-ed in Gainesville, his BS excuse for leaving UF, all his previous coaches who won't take his call and want to drill him, and that he is a stone cold Liar who will do anything to win, including covering up a domestic.
Columbus use to hate him, and many old players have told me he runs it like a business, where as Tressel ran it like a family, and that they miss JT. I guess it's true you can never change the stripes on a tiger.
#Fireurb
This is not gossip. Agree he deserved part of the blame, however the way he handled it and the way the Warinner family was treated was bush league.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:11 PM ^
Warinner definitely knew because it says all the coaches knew. I'm not sure what Michigan should do about that though because he is not Zach Smith's boss, he didn't have hire/fire (or other reprimand) powers over him.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:27 PM ^
Exactly. Even if he knew, does he have an obligation past escalating it to his boss? And if Urban already knew... Police knew... The only ones that didn't know, or have sources to publish accusations, was the media.
He could have been an a great person and risked his job to go to the media. I'm not sure not doing that makes him a bad person though...
Can you imagine the pressure it would put on OSU to fire Meyer if Harbaugh decided to fire Warinner?
Chris Ash, Luke Fickell, Tim Beck, and others have all taken positions with other schools. Will be interesting to see how they react to this news too.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:55 PM ^
Going around the head coach and taking a damaging story to the media would get a coach blackballed. That's one thing that's not tolerated in his profession.
What would the point have been? As you said, the police already knew. It would have been to make Meyer look bad and put public pressure on him to fire Smith.
I think people are jumping to conclusions about how much different people knew. It seems obvious that some would know more than others.
This is why questions need to be asked and what he knew (and what he did with that information) is important. I've never been in a work situation where I have a colleague occasionally assaulting his wife, and the wives are texting about it, but I sure as hell wouldn't sit back and allow a victim to suffer because that person doesn't report directly to me or because I don't have hiring and firing authority. That's a person in need, and the fucking chain of reporting is irrelevant.
You've got a guy drunkenly taking Urban's female assistant home with him to his pregnant wife and then physically assaulting his pregnant wife for not letting Urban's female assistant sleep over. On the one-year anniversary of their marriage. Are you kidding me? This guy is a shameless piece of shit, and his wife was trapped in a terrible situation. (Totally unrelated, but is this the same assistant...?) And it was openly discussed among the coaches' wives.
It's possible Warinner didn't know anything. It's possible what he knew was insufficient to take action. It's possible he did take action, and it still got silenced. Hell, it's even possible his disagreement over the handling of things led to him parting ways with the OSU program in 2016. It's also possible he knew things and kept his mouth shut. But I don't think anyone here knows what he knew, so no one is in a position to determine whether or not he should be held responsible.
We want to teach students to be great, to do the right thing, to stand up in difficult situations? We need to expect that from the leaders on campus. You lead by example. And that doesn't necessarily mean going to the media. If he did know what was going on, he could have told Urban he would leave if Smith didn't go. I don't know how anyone here can say that we're cool with the possibility of a guy contributing to a culture that enabled this predator just because someone else deserves more blame. Without the facts, you can't draw any conclusion. So questions need to be asked.
I hope Warinner's conduct, whatever it was, allows him to answer those questions without shame or remorse.
The incident with the assistant a drunken Smith brought home happened in Florida in 2009. Other than Smith, Meyer had a completely different coaching staff at OSU. Interestingly, that female assistant is still on his support staff.
There's a lot going on with the story that involves Smith and Meyer. You're right. We don't know what went on with his assistants and it's well worth asking. I'm reluctant to assume too much.
He might have known about the accusation but does that mean he could have done anything about it? Ultimately, this is an HR issue and Warriner only would have been involved if Smith was one of his direct reports -- was he?
Who's to say Warinner didn't tell Urban?
Who's to say Warinner didn't tell Harbaugh? Who tipped off the media...
If you knew, you had an obligation to report it. Period. This is not a gray area.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:11 PM ^
If he did it’s not his choice on what happens to Zack Smith in regards to his job. That squarely falls on leadership.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:11 PM ^
Warinner didn’t lie about it to the media.....
August 1st, 2018 at 12:37 PM ^
Besides Meyer's (1) lies on the issue, (2) the legal questions on the issue, and (3) the moral indecency of Meyer on it - you have a 4th issue of hypocrisy. Meyer had promoted the zero tolerance of abuse against women, men never hit women, no violence against women, etc....
For years, Ohio State coach Urban Meyer has touted the “core values” of his program, which includes a “zero-tolerance” policy for players who abuse women.
In gigantic capital letters, a wall in the Woody Hayes Athletic Center commands: “TREAT WOMEN WITH RESPECT.”
He is a major hypocrite. Self-proclaimed that he has zero tolerance for any disrespect of women and then knowingly sweeps a serial abuser under the rug?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-spt-urban-meyer-disappointing-response-domestic-abuse-20180724-story.html
August 1st, 2018 at 12:14 PM ^
I don't know how Warriner would bear any responsibility for what has played out. The chain of command ends with Urban Meyer. It appears through text messages that Urban's wife was made aware of the situation in 2015. Whether she passed that info on to her husband or not, I don't know if that's been confirmed.
Now, if Warriner knew before Urban Meyer did and said nothing to his Superior then there might be a case. Or if Warriner knew, told Urban, and knew that Urban did nothing about it and didn't then go the the Athletic Director then that would also look quite bad.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:17 PM ^
Yeah it's not as serious an issue, but it's still morally let's say questionable.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:20 PM ^
Right. If Warinner gets asked by the press if he knew and he says yes, and if they ask him when he found it and he says 2011 or so, how is that going to look?
August 1st, 2018 at 12:25 PM ^
In this situation what should he have done? Tell his boss? Tell the cops? They both already knew...
August 1st, 2018 at 12:29 PM ^
IMO, not great. However, as has been said already, it's not like he was in a position to enact any kind of decision, change or reprimand. While we may have the luxury of saying "He knew!! He should have quit in protest!!" we also are not in a position to say what the entire dynamic of the situation was at that time. Maybe his family was really comfortable in Columbus. Maybe his kid was just settling in with their high-school piers or athletic team. Saying that because he had knowledge of the situation does not imply that he should have quit in protest. Doesn't excuse him from any responsibility, that should be made very clear.
He SHOULD report it as far up the chain as he can. That seems like a fair, responsible expectation.
In any case, our first concern should be for Smith's ex-wife. I'm glad to hear she's an ex now. No one deserves that kind of treatment.
How would he have known around 2011? Do you mean he found out about the 2009 incident in 2011 when he got to OSU?
Is it possible to upvote posts on the new site? Sorry to bury this.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:21 PM ^
What could Warriner do? Go to the media or something? Have to be realistic, Urban or any othrr high profile coach wouldnt tolerate that. This fall squarely on Uban Meyers shoulders, you have to give Warriner a pass here.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:23 PM ^
I think if you take sports out of it and just look at it as a workplace issue, you can't really fault Warinner. As an OC Warinner is middle management, the boss knew and police were involved, what else is he supposed to do? He doesn't have the power to fire or discipline Smith, especially when this is a nepotism hire.
What I love about Michigan fans (maybe this is naive and I know it doesn't apply to the whole fanbase), is we actually care about more than just the games and want to make sure the program is held to high standards. Fans were rightfully upset at Hoke's handling of the Gibbons incident, don't celebrate guys like Frank Clark or Lewan, and were in an uproar over the Shane Morris concussion and it's aftermath. Yes Michigan had a small scandal with sexual abuse but it was not covered up, meanwhile PSU, MSU, and OSU harbored sexual predators for decades.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:31 PM ^
The Michigan Difference
August 1st, 2018 at 12:35 PM ^
I've been thinking about the thought experiment since this thread got posted. So at your job, where you are not the head man but have a fair amount of authority (Warinner had OC responsibilities), your wife tells you that she's been texting with your co-worker's wife and she thinks/knows there is domestic abuse going on.
The thing I would worry most about is if I take some kind of action that isn't responded to, am I further endangering the victim? It's not an easy question at all. But I would like to know what Warinner's thinking was.
That's easy. Most corporate environments train you for this.
Step 1. DO NOT confront the abuser.
Step 2. Go to your boss and/or HR. They will research and handle it, oftentimes without informing you of their findings.
Step 3. Leave that shit alone and DO NOT get involved in the HR investigation. You're not responsible for seeing justice done.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:25 PM ^
That’s potentially a lot of assistants that could get thrown under if that’s the case:
Fickell
Tim Beck
Schiano
Warinner
Larry Johnson
Chris Ash
Ryan Day
Kerry Coombs
I left Herman off because it seems he was there between Smith’s offenses.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:28 PM ^
If you read the full, long post on the situation it alleges that Smith told his wife "if I go down I'm taking everybody at OSU down with me"
He might just be right. Either way, Warinner better be ready to answer the question of "what did you know and when did you know it" cause it's coming baby. As sure as the sun comes up tomorrow that question is coming.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:47 PM ^
I thought that Zach Smith saying that was more about him knowing about other violations that had been committed by the coaching staff. Maybe he was blackmailing them to keep himself employed.
Really?
I'm not seeing how that threat makes sense. Smith would take down everybody at OSU by doing what? Revealing how much he told them all about his spousal abuse? Everybody will go down because Meyer let him keep his job? Keep in mind that abusers habitually downplay their actions. Also, this was before Meyer lied about what he knew at media day. That's actually a big part of the story.
It sounds a lot more like a claim that he has dirt on widespread cheating. Either that, or an empty threat based on hurt his ex's friends.
That question will be asked of Warinner and others, I agree. They will all claim limited second hand knowledge, at most. The only one it's likely to really impact is Meyer.
I'd think the staffers and former staffers would line up as victims of intimidation by Urbs, and roll on him - politely and with regret. That would be the 'professional' way to exit that scenario with your professional livelihood intact.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:27 PM ^
What I wanna know is...did Coach Warinner breathe the same air as Urban Meyer?
August 1st, 2018 at 12:27 PM ^
If Warinner knew about the allegations and had any mandatory reporting or title IX obligations to report but failed to do so than I'm not sure that I want him coaching at UofM.
If. Need more info.
August 1st, 2018 at 12:55 PM ^
Yup. It's not really a question of guilt or culpability, and he certainly didn't seem to have much in the way of agency.
But I don't have respect for supposedly good people who see something bad and decide to do nothing. Unless he somehow knew before Meyer did there's little he can be guilty of, but I still would like to know if he acted with integrity.