Craig Ross advocates for Eli Brooks to start all year at the 2 and other WTKA Mgoblog Roundtable musings

Submitted by Drew Henson's Backup on November 7th, 2019 at 12:11 PM

[Ed-Seth: The roundtable is staying; we had a temporary issue these last few weeks because the guy who makes the file for me wasn't getting the mp3s before Friday morning, and he has a real job]

Since Seth indicated earlier that the blog is unlikely to post the Roundtable on the main page anymore, I figure we can have our comment thread here.

First of all, Craig Ross was on fire today with basketball commentary. He says:

  • Eli Brooks will start at the two all year and not Wagner.
  • He's not convinced Wagner can guard the two and therefore can't play at the two (um, Stauskas?)
  • He's not sure that Wagner can create his own shot.
  • He doesn't like Castleton and Teske on the floor together (BTW, this combo has been dubbed by Brian as The Ivory Towers; I like it and it's not racist because they're white so it's okay)
  • He slipped in at the end that he wants a 6 man rotation.

Craig, I love your contributions, but you are losing it. Also, a few weeks ago Craig said on the Roundtable that Juwan is the most fundamentally sound player he's ever seen. Maybe he meant at Michigan but I don't think he specified that. Ever heard of Tim Duncan?

As for football, Brian again mentioned his concern about Maryland's guards pushing around our defensive tackles. I still don't understand though, if it's so sustainable and concerning, why did it only happen on two drives? Did Maryland change what it was doing once they were down three scores or did we actually make adjustments?

MGoBoard

ChuckieWoodson

November 7th, 2019 at 12:15 PM ^

"He doesn't like Castleton and Teske on the floor together (BTW, this combo has been dubbed by Brian as The Ivory Towers; I like it and it's not racist because they're white so it's okay)"

 

 

Joined: 01/13/2012

MGoPoints: 26175

Bodogblog

November 7th, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^

In the sense that it doesn't do any harm to either, it's not racist.  Teske and Castleton would probably laugh, because the majority society (at least the portion that has majority of power) won't harm them with stereotypes.  If you do this in America with african-american athletes, with a similar moniker, some will run with it and turn it negative and end up with something like "lol they're two guys who aren't smart".  Now a very negative stereotype has been reinforced and the players are harmed when a company says no, don't want them to represent my brand because they're seen as not smart.  

That kind of thing is really the difference and we should all be OK with that. 

Joined: 06/08/2010

MGoPoints: 26674

Bodogblog

November 7th, 2019 at 2:25 PM ^

Lol no, but I didn't neg you.  There's a difference between "black people can't be racist", which is nonsense, and the very real understanding that effects of racism are different based on who you are.  Black people can be racist: yes if a black person hates white people and beats them on the street solely because of the color of their skin, this is racism and vile and the same if the roles were reversed.  But nicknaming a white guy something and nicknaming a black guy something can have very different effects, based on how the culture processes each.  It's about harm and benefit. 

Though that probably all sounds very LSA as well. 

Joined: 06/08/2010

MGoPoints: 26674

Bodogblog

November 7th, 2019 at 12:18 PM ^

I mean we're all overreacting to one game, but Brooks was the best player on the floor Tuesday night.  We lose without him.  Is it insane to think you want to keep him on the floor? 

I don't know much about basketball, so I don't know if Wagner can fit somewhere else.  Is he really a 2?  They need him on the floor it seems, but I don't think it's insane that Brooks is a season long starter (again based on a one game sample).  Nunez looks like the player that needs to come off, but what do I know 

Joined: 06/08/2010

MGoPoints: 26674

vanarbor

November 7th, 2019 at 12:32 PM ^

You’re exactly right. There’s no reason Wagner and Brooks should even be discussed together. Wagner is a 3 and Brooks is a 1/2. They’re literally like 7 inches apart in height.

When Wagner gets back he might come off the bench for a few games but unless Nunez starts balling out, it’s gonna be Wagner starting.

Joined: 11/06/2018

MGoPoints: 3167

MichiganTeacher

November 7th, 2019 at 12:19 PM ^

1) A six-man rotation in basketball is asking for your team to be worn down to nothing by the end of the year. It also hurts development. Furthermore, if ever there were a Michigan squad that should at least start with a deep rotation, it's this one.

2) If Brooks plays like he did vs. App Store, then he's going to be impossible to keep off the floor, Wagner or no Wagner.

3) I do think that Wagner can create his own shot, at least well enough to be one of the guys in that role on this team. Obviously we don't know for sure yet, not having seen him on the floor in a game. But I'd be surprised if he couldn't.

4) I think part of the concern with Maryland pushing around our DTs is a) if they can do it on 2 drives, how many drives can OSU do it on? and b) even if you've given up on the OSU game already, it's worrisome for our other tough game remaning (Indiana).

Joined: 10/06/2011

MGoPoints: 9263

BlueKoj

November 7th, 2019 at 2:07 PM ^

Part of his stated problem is we haven't seen Wagner in a college game and even though he watched Wagner's Euro tape he felt better about what he's seen from Brooks at UM. So, maybe 1 game (plus previous seasons) > 0 games?

Sam and Brian were totally on the Franz train given his Euro pro play and what scouting they've made based on McCormick's and their observations. But also, they seemed less swayed by Brooks' 1 game (though were happy to see progress).

Joined: 01/10/2014

MGoPoints: 7772

1VaBlue1

November 7th, 2019 at 1:33 PM ^

It's unfortunate that posting it is too much work.  I understand the Roundtable is Sam's show and that MGoBlog isn't getting much out of it.  But they are getting publicity from it, and most blog readers enjoy listening to it.  For whatever reason, the WTKA downloads are highly segmented, unformatted, and listed out of order, so it takes some effort to clean it up for the podcast apps to better deal with.

I appreciate the effort that went into it, but if it's not going to be available on my podcast app then I won't listen.  And I suspect a lot of readers will also stop listening as a result.  I'm not sure this matters to the Blog, but it sure is a bummer for me...

 

Joined: 01/31/2016

MGoPoints: 127087

Inertia Policeman

November 7th, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^

I love Craig Ross, he's my favorite part of the roundtable. Him advocating for a 6-man rotation was hilarious. He has some WAY out there basketball takes that are so wild I'm not entirely sure if he's serious, or just trying to rile everyone else up. I'm surprised he didn't like the Ivory Towers (we're going to make fetch happen! lol Brian) lineup since he seems to be a huge fan of Castleton.

Joined: 10/28/2011

MGoPoints: 1644

vanarbor

November 7th, 2019 at 12:30 PM ^

I don’t think Wagner was going to be played at the 2 that much anyway. He’s 6’8 I’m pretty sure so he was going to start at the 3. Why was he even discussing the possibility of him taking Eli’s spot? It’s so obvious that it would be Nunez onto the bench.

Also pretty strongly disagree that Wagner can’t create for himself at all. He’s gonna surprise people just like he did playing pro, just watch. 

Joined: 11/06/2018

MGoPoints: 3167

vanarbor

November 7th, 2019 at 12:38 PM ^

Ahhhh I see. Yeah I’m 100000% with Craig on this one then.

You have a total of 0 ballhandlers and efficient “creators” outside of your PG with that second lineup. That would put unnecessary burden on X and make the offense way to damn easy to defend.

Eli is a great complement next to X unlike DDJ who needs to have the ball as well. Eli can shoot it from the outside but can also take pressure off of X with the ball. Also you get Livers playing in his natural position, and if we utilize anything like the Heat’s offense, he will have a prominent role.

Joined: 11/06/2018

MGoPoints: 3167

MGoChippewa

November 7th, 2019 at 12:41 PM ^

There has always been talk about Franz at the 2 despite his height.  Was based on the assumption that we had three starters locked in (Z, Teske, Livers) and that the next best two would be Wagner and Johns.  That meant Franz at the 2, even if he's a more natural 3.  If it turns out that Brooks is more valuable than Johns, assume we'll see Z, Brooks, Franz, Livers, Teske as the go-to group down the line.

Joined: 01/06/2011

MGoPoints: 11463

ish

November 7th, 2019 at 12:31 PM ^

i thought seth just couldn't post the roundtable last week.  is it not going to be posted at all anymore?  that would be a big loss. 

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 17404

Mitch Cumstein

November 7th, 2019 at 12:41 PM ^

I don’t get the brooks hate on this board. Brooks was a pretty big recruit (offer from Nova) if I recall, and has shown some flashes in his first 2 years.  He has a decent track record on the defensive end, and it’s not that tough to imagine him being a serious offensive contributor with some minor improvements to his game. There are a ton of examples of players making big leaps from sophomore to Jr in college sports.  I’m not saying that it means Craig is definitely right, but I’ve heard way more ridiculous takes on that segment.

Joined: 10/02/2009

MGoPoints: 14072

Drew Henson's Backup

November 7th, 2019 at 12:48 PM ^

I do like Brooks. I think he has been and will be a good contributor. If he plays like he did in Game 1 every night then he will obviously keep his starting spot. Starters really don't matter anyway, it's more about minutes. I think that as the season goes on, Brooks will not be one of the top 5 contributors, but I'm not anti-Brooks by any means.

I am more in disagreement with Craig about the idea that Franz can't play the two. I think he can play SG or SF, doesn't really matter.

Joined: 08/19/2019

MGoPoints: 6499

jmblue

November 7th, 2019 at 12:45 PM ^

He's not convinced Wagner can guard the two and therefore can't play at the two (um, Stauskas?)

Stauskas played the three (the guards were Burke/THJ his freshman year and then Walton/LeVert his sophomore year). 

Also, he was a really bad defender.  The 2014 Big Ten champs were not known at all for their defense.  They basically just outshot everyone.

Joined: 11/07/2008

MGoPoints: 102819

Michigan Arrogance

November 7th, 2019 at 12:47 PM ^

I didn't hear the segment (I'll wait for the podcast) but I'm sure part of the Eli love is his defense - look at his play on D to stop a driving ASU player late in the game. He's not bad offensively like everyone thought last year (as long as he can be aggressive and take his shots and stay within himself). X, Eli, Livers and Teske on the floor is a hell of a defensive lineup. If they can communicate and get the D schemes down this could be a top 5 D again. Wagner could be the 5th guy at the 3 or Castleton at the 4, pushing livers to the 3.

I don't see Nunez or DDJ contributing in a major way this year. Thye should be given spot minutes to spell X (DDJ) or spell Eli (Nunez). I think Wagner at the 2 is a stretch (get it?) based on his ability to guard that spot, but I'd guess he can create offense at least as well as X and Eli and Livers so he will be playing plenty at the 3.

X >35, DDJ <5

Eli 30, Nunez/DDJ 5, Wagner 5

Wagner 20 Livers 20

Livers 15 Johns 15  Castleton 10

Notorious S.L.E.E.P. 25 Castleton 15

that's a 9 man rotation with 7 getting significant minutes. 

 

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 35513

AC1997

November 7th, 2019 at 1:15 PM ^

Craig always thinks that a 6 man rotation is critical....smile politely and move on.  I think we're looking at 8-9 and that's about right.  As you get late in the year maybe it tightens up to 7-8.  

I think Craig is a little negative on Wagner in my opinion and I do think he's the key to solving some of the issues with this team.  I think he lets you put people in their natural spots and thus get more comfortable and perhaps creative with your rotations.  I'm not sold on the Ivory Towers lineup yet either, but you don't have much of a choice with the lack of depth on the wing.  I think Wagner is going to be somewhere between a freshman Stauskas (good shooter with the occasional take to the hoop), freshman Iggy (solid shooter, can attack the right matchup, not a star in either role), and sophomore Livers (great glue guy, hit what is set up for you).  We need that right now and Craig's foolish if he thinks Wagner isn't going to be a strong contributor.

However.....where I agree with Craig is that I've never been sold on the Wagner-at-the-2 for this year's team.  I think adapting to the NCAA and the system as a 6'8" wing is hard enough and made worse when you consider that most teams are going to play a 6'3" speedy guy in that spot.  I think Wagner, Livers, and Johns should split the 80 minutes at the forward spot with only rare instances of Wagner at the 2 or Castleton at the 4.  

I fully expected Brooks to play a ton this year because he's reliable.  If he can score like he did this week?  Even more reason to assume he's a 25-30 minute guy all year.  

Joined: 09/19/2008

MGoPoints: 13818

MGoLow

November 7th, 2019 at 1:21 PM ^

I would hate to see the Roundtable podcast go away permanently. It's the thing that makes my Friday commute tolerable. I wondered where it went the last few weeks. It's also nice to hear some different opinions. Sometimes our beloved blog bros can get a bit echo chamber-y.

Joined: 02/06/2013

MGoPoints: 2217

Seth

November 7th, 2019 at 1:32 PM ^

We've got the roundtable figured out now. It was just a temporary situation because they weren't posting a copy of it until Friday mornings, when we didn't have the bandwidth to do anything with it before all the friday content and saturday games.

Joined: 10/14/2008

MGoPoints: 149219