Blinkin

November 23rd, 2022 at 3:05 PM ^

If the charge is "excessive" that will be determined by the jury.  The prosecutors clearly believe that the evidence they saw is persuasive that the MSU players' actions rise to the level of the laws they cited.  

If the charges are reasonable (and I believe they are), expect plea bargains from MSU players who don't want to take their chances in front of a jury.

Joined: 08/17/2022

MGoPoints: 28805

dickdastardly

November 23rd, 2022 at 2:19 PM ^

Good. Now the team can go out and assault The OHowihate State Buckeyes on the football field on Saturday and win convincingly making Ryan Day lose his job when the school fires him for losing to Michigan.

Joined: 09/03/2020

MGoPoints: 24617

TeslaRedVictorBlue

November 23rd, 2022 at 2:25 PM ^

I am the rare Michigan fan who thinks that keeping Juwan after last year's incident was a mistake. I think it both ethically and tactically. Yes, everyone hate on me for it. But "what about"-ism is exhausting, so lets stay on topic.

That said, how anyone can see what happened in the tunnel in small or in large part, and think to themselves... we're the victims.. its just sports... is completely lost on me.

That was so far beyond the pale that I have a hard time seeing how sensible people can write it off as "the heat of battle", but now seem to be making them out to be the victims.

This, to me, is at the point where something has to be done off-season and going into next season to LOWER the temperature in the room. This isn't like UM-OSU where the more hype we have, the more exciting it is... this is the opposite. This is building to the point where UM players and fans will feel afraid for their well-being if they go to East Lansing next year and in the future. And, perhaps even more sadly, a number of msu fans like it that way.

I am an out of stater, so this rivalry wasn't a thing for me until I attended UM. But when I did, I always saw msu games as a bunch of Michigan peeps on both sides basically having a party in the big house. Everyone sat together, it wasn't a huge deal and then everyone went home and hung out.

This rivalry has turned negative in so many ways. I think the players should come out and shake hands next year. I think the coaches should do the same. I think there should be a lot of kumbaya, or things may get even worse.

Joined: 09/02/2021

MGoPoints: 35444

jmblue

November 23rd, 2022 at 4:07 PM ^

This isn't like UM-OSU where the more hype we have, the more exciting it is... this is the opposite. This is building to the point where UM players and fans will feel afraid for their well-being if they go to East Lansing next year

Just to be clear: many Michigan fans feel that way about going to Columbus.  I don't quite understand this desire (not just on your part but many fans') to seemingly whitewash the behavior of OSU fans. 

MSU fans may be annoying online, but in person most are fine, and going to East Lansing isn't that big of a deal for Michigan fans.

Joined: 11/07/2008

MGoPoints: 103061

Denard In Space

November 23rd, 2022 at 2:32 PM ^

This is an example of an incident in which a restorative justice approach may have actually been much more useful for EVERYONE than retributive justice. To be clear I don't at all believe in "law enforcement" as it currently exists-- but setting this aside, I think we can all agree that in practice the criminal justice system is rife with deep evils.  Some say it's "broken" but I think the design is itself evil. Either way, I don't think entrenching college students into corrupt and evil system is beneficial -- look at what has happened to those very same young men within the Spartan football program. Doesn't help anyone.  

So, for example, a restorative justice approach may have looked like: Sparty players do community service, get therapy / other personal development, and engage in some sort of symbolic gesture of repair, like planting trees in the Arb with UM players or some shit.  The point of such a strategy being: 1. change the behavior 2. take accountability 3. help create closure for the victims.  Added bonus: it would likely lead to a lot less hot-headed reactivity and calm the toxicity of the rivalry down.  

This outcome will only lead to more animosity and bitterness, and I'd bet it just inflames Sparty's sense of injustice, in part because it's not really "justice" but more retribution.  

Just some cents from your local mgoSocialWorker

Joined: 05/24/2018

MGoPoints: 13631

bcnihao

November 23rd, 2022 at 5:38 PM ^

It could start with payment to the victims or to a charity of their choice.  Payment could be allocated over a period of time.  It would at least begin the "restorative."  Or it could start with labor personally connected to the victims and their families, or to a charity of their choice.  Again, that would at least begin the "restorative."  

Joined: 10/05/2015

MGoPoints: 5351

Blinkin

November 23rd, 2022 at 3:08 PM ^

So you want them to plant trees?  What makes you think a scumbag like Crump or Windmon won't just use their shovel to hit passers-by in the Arb?

Sometimes there's just bad people and you need to take them out of society.  Anyone who's capable of jumping on a guy who was already down and being beaten won't be fixed by any amount of therapy.  That's just a bad person who needs to be taken away from the rest of us, for everyone's safety. 

Joined: 08/17/2022

MGoPoints: 28805

rice4114

November 23rd, 2022 at 3:19 PM ^

If people are stomping heads of someone down on the ground Im not sure how well restorative anything will help. Maybe Im wrong and heck im as progressive as the day is long. The coaches need to settle that fanbase down. Nothing we do or a prosecutor does will change that. 10 plus comments of "lets escalate this violence" on RCMB is troubling to say the least. Planting trees isnt going to change them or a head stomper try as we may.

Joined: 08/26/2010

MGoPoints: 47768

Denard In Space

November 23rd, 2022 at 3:58 PM ^

I'd respond but my Tesla just exploded so now I have to take care of that. 

But seriously, I won't get into a long debate on a sports forum because nobody came here for that, but this is what people always say "it doesn't work in real life" while never actually looking into whether this is true or not. 

For anyone that actually cares about the issue rather than just reifying their own political beliefs, there is a tremendous amount of data and research supporting the EFFICACY of restorative justice concepts in the reduction of recidivism, even for some violent crimes. The reality is that there is no justice system in America where these principles are applied in earnest.  

To be clear, I am only interested in what works, and could care less if it comes from the mind of Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders. If it materially improves the conditions of people's lives and communities, that's what I'm interested in. I feel like a lot of folks are reacting to their internal priors here.  

Joined: 05/24/2018

MGoPoints: 13631

iMBlue2

November 23rd, 2022 at 6:48 PM ^

You watched that Michael Moore doc too I see?  It seems you have a passion for this as evidenced by your lengthy posts and have remained respectful to those who disagree but respectfully you sound as though you am don’t have actual real world experience with this subject and if you do it is definitely from one side of the aisle.

Joined: 11/24/2017

MGoPoints: 16010

Denard In Space

November 23rd, 2022 at 7:06 PM ^

In fact, I "am do" have real world experience. I've been a social worker for 21 years and have interacted with the justice system from that perspective. I have worked with offenders, those waiting to be adjudicated, and incarcerated youth. I have direct real world experience, and I read books and articles by people who also have real world experience and bother to study and learn about things. I have no idea what documentary you're talking about. It seems like you literally didn't read what I wrote. I was quite clear that my perspective has nothing to do with politics but what's effective.

Not that I think you'll bother to read, but here's a link to a meta-analysis (that means over 22 different studies that examined 35 different real-world programs) from Canada clearly indicating far higher incidence of positive outcomes for all parties involved in a crime, including recidivism reduction: 
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/effectiveness-restorative-justice-practices-meta-analysis

I know it's easier to shoot something down by saying it's the enemy's idea, but maybe if you slow down and think about this more carefully you'll see some good ideas worth considering.   

Joined: 05/24/2018

MGoPoints: 13631

iMBlue2

November 23rd, 2022 at 7:40 PM ^

So much for being respectful, cool flex on my typo I’ll try to do better this time around but feel free to make yourself feel superior on a sports blog.  I am missing in my post where I cite anything political.  You’re making my point you are outlining you’re experience which seems very much skewed to one side of the aisle.  You only deal with the criminals once they’ve been entered the system You don’t deal with the victims or the mayhem left in the wake.  You’re experience is likely foster by what ever entity you work for pushing things that are “ stat based” and “ best practices” leading to the comments on what works.  Fact is “what works” is a subjective conclusion.  When dealing with things like crime where people are usually harmed in some way   “Best practices” can often miss the mark and leaves the victims SOL.  It’s clear you are much more concerned with the criminal rather than those transgressed.

Joined: 11/24/2017

MGoPoints: 16010

Denard In Space

November 23rd, 2022 at 7:47 PM ^

My dude, saying "respectfully" and then shitting on someone's experience is extremely rude and that's what you did and continue to do. I admit I interpreted your "sides of the aisle" as political because that's almost exclusively how it's used in the English language. I guess I now see you meant the "aisle" that divides victim from perpetrator, which nobody has ever said before this conversation.  That doesn't prove any point.  

I'm literally giving you facts, evidence, AND firsthand experience, and you're just saying "you probably feel this way because your boss told you so." It's kind of embarrassing!

If evidence is not good enough and my "experience" doesn't work for you, I don't know what to say. I've of course also worked, much more predominantly, with victims and survivors.  I just don't want to outline my whole CV to go on a wild goose chase with you when you're clearly just blowing off steam and not engaging in good faith.  

Joined: 05/24/2018

MGoPoints: 13631

iMBlue2

November 23rd, 2022 at 8:07 PM ^

My guy your elitist bs can take a hike  already.  Your that guy that feels righteous and wants to argue with anyone that disagrees, and I bit.  It’s clear your much younger than that 21 years of experience would suggest.  Sides of the aisle clearly indicates two opposing viewpoints on a particular issue why you tried to make it political and then justify your mistake by saying that term is only used in reference to politics is another of your vaunted humble flexes.  You read a study from Canada and work as a social worker whose job it is to help criminals. Nothing wrong with that but don’t tell me for a minute as a result your viewpoints aren’t possibly skewed.  None of the studies you’ve linked have addressed the victims adequately.  Funny that you now don’t have the time once Someone doesn’t agree with you and provides a valid counterpoint.  If you could stop 

Joined: 11/24/2017

MGoPoints: 16010

Denard In Space

November 23rd, 2022 at 8:12 PM ^

I don't know why you're attacking me, man.  All I've done is given you information and argued for it.  All you've done is invent things about me and my personality.  Say one fact, please. Just one piece of actual information! I'm begging! Also I don't work with criminals anymore I'm a therapist and I work with survivors of sexual assault and people with autism lol.  

Regarding your concern on victims, from the 22 studies (not one, again you need to slow down and read): 


"The results of the meta-analysis demonstrated that the vast majority of victims were significantly more satisfied with restorative justice programs than the traditional justice system."

Honestly it just sounds like you're upset that you know less about this than someone else does.  That's like normal.  I do too, and I'm willing to listen if you just say information rather than getting all emotional at me.  

Joined: 05/24/2018

MGoPoints: 13631

iMBlue2

November 23rd, 2022 at 8:23 PM ^

You posted a link to a study from 2003.  Reading this does not make you more knowledgeable on the subject matter as a whole.  You are all over the place first saying that you were working with adjudicated youth and the prison population and now it’s rape survivors and those on the autism spectrum. Once again you continue making my point that all you want to do is argue, funny thing is you actually say it.  Fact: a therapist will have a skewed view of this subject.  That was my point you can throw whatever stats and best practices on the table but that premise won’t change.

Joined: 11/24/2017

MGoPoints: 16010

redjugador24

November 23rd, 2022 at 2:33 PM ^

My totally uneducated guess - the felony gets plead down to a misdemeanor and the misdemeanors result in community service and will be vacated from criminal histories if they can complete probation terms without incident. IMO Crump is probably the only one with a real chance of facing jail time (probably minimal if any, likely just longer probation), and he and Windmon the only ones at risk of this staying on their record. 

May be unpopular here but that seems fitting IMO.  Scare the shit out of them, make them pay their penance via community service and lengthy probation, and possibly a short jail sentence for Crump. Their names are being plastered all over, they'll miss 4(?) games and Crump should be booted from MSU permanently as well.  Make an example but don't ruin their lives over it.  As stupid and dangerous as this was, they are in fact kids and Green has recovered from his injuries so give them a chance to serve their sentences without a permanent record. 

Any MgoLawyers have thoughts on this?

Joined: 11/08/2015

MGoPoints: 5461

True Blue Grit

November 23rd, 2022 at 2:35 PM ^

This is good, but the real culprits don't see any consequences here - the coaches and administrators in the athletic department at MSU who have created and are maintaining the toxic culture exposed by the players behavior. Whatever happens to these players won't change anything going forward unless the adults in charge are held accountable.  

This is why I've said before what needs to happen is Santa needs to have a direct conversation with MSU''s president to address the culture problem in the rivalry and initiate steps to tone down the temperature before it spills over into the fanbases at the games.  Youd also like to see some kind of action by the Big Ten, but I'm not holding my breath.

Joined: 01/21/2011

MGoPoints: 32488