Brown vs Day Film Study
There is an interesting article over at 11W by Kyle Jones on film study from the past few UM/OSU games. It discusses Day & Brown's long history playing and coaching against each other, as well as together. It breaks down game film obviously and talks about some of Brown's schemes and what Day does to try and beat them. But, the writer made a key and worrisome conclusion.
it's evident that Day and his staff were not only capable of quickly diagnosing Brown's plans but had the correct counter ready at a moment's notice.
If true, I don't know what Brown can really do about short of completely changing his defense. That is really bad news for Brown led defenses against Day in the future.
I’m just....kind of in a state of meh at this point. OSU is a better program in essentially every facet. Coaching, development, recruiting, everything. I don’t know what else there is to say.
If they’re going to whoop Michigan’s ass every year, then I sure as shit won’t give them the satisfaction of having it bother me.
Doesn't bother you, huh? If you're going to try to fool someone, make sure it isn't yourself.
Yeah, it really doesn’t. Not anymore anyway. It’s hard to get invested in something when you know the end result is a loss. I pretty much gave up on this rivalry after the 2016 and 2017 editions. I went into the last two years assuming Michigan would lose, so when it happened, I just shrugged my shoulders and went about the rest of my day. Hard to be bothered when you don’t have expectations.
Don’t get me wrong. I hate OSU as much as I hate ISIS, and I’d like to see Michigan win. But I’d also like for there to be a COVID vaccine by next week and that’s not going to happen either. And if Michigan is going to lose (and they will), then I’m not giving their players, coaches, and fans the satisfaction of letting it bother me.
I’m in this boat. The last couple seasons I’ve turned the game off before half time more or less. I probably checked the score once or twice on my phone, but I very notably was out doing other things that weren’t college football related. To the extent my wife asked me, each year, if I was ok and why I wasn’t watching football.
Meh is probably correct for me too. Everything you posted is true but it isn’t quite what bothers me the most. What does drive me up a wall is Michigan just will not accept what you wrote is true and scheme around it.
The first 5 years Urban Meyer was in town (2012-2016) MSU was, overall, a very good program so I doubt OSU was overlooking them. During those 5 years Dantonio went 2-3 against Meyer with a combined -1 point differential. Yes, I think the OSU teams now have a little bit more talent and a better offensive scheme. However, MSU wasn’t flush with recruiting starzzzz. So how did they compete? They accepted the underdog status, used it as fuel and schemed around it.
Just one man’s opinion but I am convinced the 2018 team showed up in Columbus certain it would be business as usual for that season and squash them like a bug. ALL facets of that game sucked and the only reason it was close at any point was OSU gave us a 7 point gift before halftime.
My point is this: Contrary to what some people think, our talent is good enough on this team to compete with OSU. The problem is we get absolutely crushed schematically which for all the hype and dollars spent on our coaching staff drives me crazy. Just some examples:
- On offense, we need to either suck the life out of the game (snap it with 1 on the play clock each down) or throw caution to wind, try to tire out their defense by locking their defenders on the field and go Oregon ball on them. Snapping the ball at 10 or so is great for OSU. We’re not shortening the game and we’re not going fast enough to prevent them from subbing.
- On defense, limit big plays at all costs. Accept the fact you won’t hammer them and field goals are okay. Stop trying to put corners on islands
I could talk about other schematic things but we have to be willing to try a different approach against OSU and it would be preferable if we sprung something on them offensively.
The first 5 years Urban Meyer was in town (2012-2016) MSU was, overall, a very good program so I doubt OSU was overlooking them. During those 5 years Dantonio went 2-3 against Meyer with a combined -1 point differential. Yes, I think the OSU teams now have a little bit more talent and a better offensive scheme. However, MSU wasn’t flush with recruiting starzzzz. So how did they compete? They accepted the underdog status, used it as fuel and schemed around it.
In all fairness MSU had 19 NFL draft picks during that span to UM's 14. For a variety of reasons I think MSU's talent was much better than their average recruiting ranking over that time and UM's was much worse. Also, unfortunately for UM, they simply do not get the advantage that everyone else like MSU, PSU, etc. get when facing OSU. Rather as OSU's only rival, they prepare for UM all year long and we get their best each and every game
Come on man, MSU beat them in the big ten championship game. This narrative that we're the only school that gets OSU's best performance is fine when you're taking about Iowa and Purdue. But you'll never convince me that they overlooked or didn't give maximum effort in a conference championship game that was also a de facto playoff game for the BCS National Championship.
Come on man, MSU beat them in the big ten championship game.
So, you're saying OSU prepared for MSU all off-season because they knew they'd meet in the championship game?
But you'll never convince me that they overlooked or didn't give maximum effort in a conference championship game that was also a de facto playoff game for the BCS National Championship.
Effort is one thing. Year round devoted preparation is another. They may not have taken MSU for granted, but they did not put in an equal amount of time preparing for them.
No, my point is that they played in the B1G championship game and MSU kicked their ass. People make the excuse that the only reason other schools can beat OSU and we can't is because they put more effort and preparation into beating us and often overlook the teams like Purdue, Iowa, PSU, etc.
You'll never convince me that OSU didn't want to win that B1G championship just as badly as they wanted to beat our 7-6 team, especially when they were 12-0 at the time and on the cusp of playing in the BCS National Championship.
You'll never convince me that OSU didn't want to win that B1G championship just as badly as they wanted to beat our 7-6 team, especially when they were 12-0 at the time and on the cusp of playing in the BCS National Championship.
Don't believe me? Maybe Urban himself can convince you. When asked point blank by Jerry Dinardo would you rather beat the rival or win a championship his response was...
I can tell you this from the bottom of my sole...no or game or championship compares to this game. I grew up in the 70s and it was the TTUN. You could go 1-11, but you cannot lose that game.
https://youtu.be/BL6x6W_wqT8?t=258
Ok so HE personally wanted to beat our 7-6 team more than he wanted to win a B1G championship. But it's ridiculous to assume that that they didn't put 100% of their effort into winning that championship game. This isn't like going to Purdue half asleep and getting ambushed. This is the conference championship and literally a play in game for the National Championship. MSU didn't play a weaker, less focused version of OSU than we did when we lost 42-41 the previous week. Both games were played with the same level of attention and focus because both had huge implications for their season.
MSU didn't play a weaker, less focused version of OSU than we did when we lost 42-41 the previous week. Both games were played with the same level of attention and focus because both had huge implications for their season.
Agree to disagree. If you don't believe Urban himself saying he puts more time, energy, and focus in the game against us than anyone else I don't know what to tell you.
Just FYI ... MSU is in the same division as ohio so they can never "beat them in the B1G championship game". sheesh
Go Blue!
They weren’t in the old legends and leaders. Do you not remember the 2013 BIG championship game? MSU kicked their ass up and down the field in Indy without crying about recruiting starzzz and online classes or whatever else people like to make excuses about.
This is so overlooked. They have 2 QB's in the NFL from those teams, a RB who was considered the best at his position in the NFL, offense and defensive lineman that are still playing very well in the NFL, and they played against really 1 dimensional OSU teams when they won those games. No making excuses, but all those are facts that can be substantiated.
Harbaugh is a Mettelus interception and a group of corrupt refs away from having two wins vs OSU and two likely Big Ten Titles. We have enough talent to get it done.
that damn drop. Did you get the sense after he dropped (like the Cubs/Bartman) that somehow the whole complexion of the game was going to change.
Sickens me to remember that.
Yup.
Schematics weren't the biggest the issue last season. You should go read Space Coyote's twitter posts on it.
You, the board and me and everyone with eyeballs knows Michigan does not have the talent OSU does. Either the coaching staff doesn’t realize this or won’t accept this. Space Coyote is a great poster and I don’t recall reading what he wrote but I’m assuming he points the finger at lack of DT’s and whatever you want to fault with RB’s and QB play. If his point was something else, feel free to stop reading and give me a neg.
To that I say: No shit. You say scheme is not the major issue. I say it is. We don’t use tempo. We can’t manage the clock well. We just had 4 linemen drafted and couldn’t run the ball against OSU. We refuse to tone down the defensive aggression against teams that can pass block and throw. We just had a 5 starzzz QB and a whole stable of highly recruited WR’s, the aforementioned linemen and still couldn’t hit downfield passes against quality opponents.
Our schemes suck for college football 2020. To me, that is highly irritating.
I mean, you're right to a degree, in the sense that you can point out specific instances of those things in the games, without question. Also, you can do that with every game for every team if you scrutinize it. But on an overall and fundamental level your claim of ScHeMe Is OuTdAtEd AnD dUmB is absolutely not the case; this is what is called the Dunning-Kruger effect.
I suggest you stop "assuming" and do some reading on his twitter and website for starters.
I’m guessing by Dunning Kruger you mean I’m an idiot that thinks I know way more than I actually do. That’s fine.
I’ll make this simple then: Name me one, ONE solitary thing from your prospective of “scheme” that you feel we do a great job at against OSU that helps tip the scale a little bit back towards us. Feel free to link what Space Coyote is saying; I’d be happy to read it. Or, feel free to refute something in my post you responded to.
Space Coyote finds ways to use football jargon and knowledge to justify everything the coaches have done pretty much. His strength is in giving reasons for. I don't think he's as good at judging whether those reasons are good or not.
I stopped caring a few years ago. I only watch 3 or 4 games a year anymore. Michigan is good but not great or elite program anymore. If they win great, if not so what. Living in ohio has probably made this decision easier.
Who takes Dobbins place? Teague looked rather mortal from what I remember. What's the OL situation?
OSU nabbed the Oklahoma RB transfer Trey Sermon. Immediate eligibility.
Trey Sermon, while highly ranked and regarded while at Oklahoma was passed by Sophomore Kennedy Brooks. He left the Iowa State game in November 2019 with a knee injury that caused him to miss the rest of the season.
I watch a lot of Oklahoma football. Sermon and Brooks split reps for the previous year and a half until they all the sudden stopped giving Sermon the ball and then he got hurt. They had different styles but I think most would say Sermon was a better runner. Unfortunately I think he'll do well in OSU's offense
And his 2 online classes don't start till October.
3rd Team All B10 Teague? Yea he sucks.
I actually agree with this, though don't necessarily think we'll win, as we're just out-talented, and football is a team sport. But Dobbins was a perfect explosive complement to Fields and fit hideously well into their scheme. I think Fields is going to look more mortal without JK-all-day in there. I think Fields' deficiencies were bandaged over by Dobbins' skills and the weak Big 10. Fields isn't a QB who's going to stand there and read a defense then deliver a microscopically accurate pass into the right window. He has to have this a-bomb waiting to happen in Dobbins to keep a defense honest. I haven't seen as explosive a back as Dobbins at O$U in my 30 years of fandom. I don't think their offense will be nearly as unstoppable with a more mortal back. Plus, all that racism that Fields experienced at Georgia, is certainly going to catch up with him psychologically at some point.
Still, we probably don't have the team to beat them in their own stadium this year. But eventually, like Navarre's interceptions and Walker's uncharacteristic drops in 01', eventually, we're going to get a day full of breaks and eek one out, though we're the weaker team. It's just the law of averages. Although, looking at how we twice knocked Barrett out of games only to have unknown QB's come off the bench to smoke us, maybe the laws of nature don't apply to O$U.
Remember that dime Fields dropped right after suffering the knee injury? That's what elite QB's do, regardless of who is in the backfield. Sorry for the reminder, LDS.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/30/sports/ncaafootball/ohio-state-michigan-justin-fields.html
Does it even matter? If Day knows the defense every time, I'm sure they've got someone that can run through an open hole and/or catch a pass uncovered.
Plenty of coaches have faced off against each other many, many times. This type of long history between two coaches is not even that uncommon. The profession is a relatively small world.
Also coaches evolve.
Evolve or die.
Well, that's probably why Michigan hired 2 guys whose expertise is zone blitzing.
I'm guessing a few things apply here. One, Brown is probably much better than average at one thing...pressure. And two, Brown is also probably much less willing/able to change than average. He's on the record of saying when people don't want to play pressure defense it's time to hang it up. Based on what I've heard him say he doesn't come across as a guy who's willing to change philosophies. I'm sure he'll tweak, but that won't be enough. On the other hand, Day has proven he's also better than average at the more cerebral aspect of play calling, formations, audibles, etc. And, to add to that OSU is more talented. Add those up and it makes it difficult for UM to come out on top.
I feel like this just comes back to personnel. Really weak interior DL are going to limit what you can do as a defense. It seems you'd be forced to be way more aggressive with linebackers, and that leaves you vulnerable. Weak links that are often exactly the kinds of things good coordinators can paper over until they face an opponent with superior talent. Sometimes you get got, and sometimes you get got but your nose guard is ripping through the OL and the QB doesn't have time to set up and throw.
They're talking about all the wins Day has against Brown, but they're crediting Day when he was a freaking graduate assistant. Come on.
This also gets me more excited for next year. I really hope there's a season. Boring safeties are fine, but we could very well have Bush 2.0 with McGrone at LB, and Dax a playmaking safety Michigan hasn't had for decades, literally. That with an improved DL gives me a lot of hope.
Yes. One cannot deduce that Brown is at some schematic disadvantage from the facts at hand. Only if each coach had the personnel they sought for the style of play they planned. . .
Yea last season I never expected UM to stop their run. The D line and/or LBs weren’t good enough. That limited what Brown could do and made predicting his schemes and countering easier. In 2018 the D line was limited (due more to injuries) too so Day could exploit matchups in the secondary cus there was no pressure. Both times there were personnel limitations on Brown.
Replacing Hudson/Mettelus with younger but better players and improving at DT would allow Brown more freedom to counter and make Day’s job harder.
This also gets me more excited for next year. I really hope there's a season. Boring safeties are fine, but we could very well have Bush 2.0 with McGrone at LB, and Dax a playmaking safety Michigan hasn't had for decades, literally. That with an improved DL gives me a lot of hope.
I love McGrone & Hill too, but I don't see a Charlton, Gary, Hurst, Winovich, Uche yet on our line that get pressure without blitzing. Hopefully Hutch can make a jump this year. Maybe if we were in year 3 of Hinton/Mazi I'd feel more comfortable with our interior line, but so far it still looks like an above average, but not great d-line and I don't think that's enough to threaten OSU's o-line. Add to that the talent they have at WR in Olave, Wilson, & the 50 5-star freshman :/
OSU has UM figured out. I fully believe they prepare for Michigan every day.
I also believe that this season, at OSU, Brown will be coaching for his UM career. I don't dislike Brown but if three straight drubbings occur, something will have to be changed up.
I don’t believe osu has to prepare for Michigan every day. It would be a waste of time that could be used more wisely. MSU preparing for Michigan ever day would make more sense.
I agree. If the Buckeyes hang 50-plus on us again, Harbaugh needs to make a change.
If the Buckeyes hang 50 plus on us, we most likely lose and Harbaugh is 0-6 vs them. If that happens, Warde needs to make a change.
having played and coached for years, if i get to play my 4.6 stars vs. your 4.2 stars, i'm going to look like the better coach all day long. i might be, but just as easily i might be the same, or i even might be worse. but if my kids on average are a 1/4 step in front of yours, have a 3" leaping advantage, are a few pounds heavier all the way around, or i can plug someone in who is and you can't, well, i look like a genius. and nobody will care how i paid/got my players.
day is a very good coach, no doubt. but his cupboard is filled with the best china money can buy. ours is very nice. his is better.
This is accurate.
I saw Ryan Day coached teams regularly when he was at Temple working as Steve Addazio's Wide Receivers Coach and Offensive Coordinator. To be plain, he was not very good. Some of that was inexperience in the role, some of that was Addazio being Addazio influencing and a good part of that was a less talented team not executing whatever he drew up.
He got lucky to get Justin Field last year. I have seen his work with lesser talent.
Hey, didn't we get lucky 2 years ago and got Shea???
this made me laugh
Why?