Beilein tweaking the recruiting profile he's after?
For the hoops fans on here, thought I would pass on an interesting observation made over on UMHoops by user MattD (the guys who runs the Endless Motor hoops recruiting website) - Beilein seems to be altering the profile of the type of player he's looking for. Based on recent interest that the staff has shown, it looks like they're beginning to put a higher priority on athleticism, even if it's at the expense of offensive skill.
In the past, the primary characteristics Beilein looked for seemed to be shooting (first and foremost), court vision (in the sense of both spacing and passing ability), and general on-court IQ. Those often seemed to be prioritized over quick-twitch athleticism or defensive assertiveness.
However, given the recruiting board that's developing for 2017, those priorities appear to be changing. Two cases-in-point: Harold Baruti and Jamal Cain. Both have received significant interest from UM and both are above average in the athleticism category. However, they each have room for growth in terms of shooting the ball. In the past, I don't think Beilein would've been as interested in them (particularly Baruti). Other guys on the board in 2017 fit the same mold - Cohill, Carmody, Dawson, and Tillman.
I don't think it's going to be a wholesale change, but I think we'll see some of the weight that was focused on general basketball skill (shooting/passing) shifted over to athleticism, if Beilein thinks a player will improve on the skills front with good coaching.
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The problem is you often don't have a lot of time in college to build players, especially since an athletic and relatively raw player will be drafted in the NBA over a relatively unathletic but really good college player.
Plus, not all players are easily coached up. How many free throws has Shaq bricked in his life?
Not saying this is a wrong move at all on Beilein's part, but it's not a no-brainer.
Most players will not be drafted by the NBA, athletic* or otherwise. Beilein should be recruiting five star players and NBA-level-upside players, period, but we're not Kentucky or Duke so we can't fill a whole class with them every year. So for most of the guys we get, Beilein and his assistances are going to have more than a year or two to work with them. We've looked slow and overmatched athletically against top teams for several years now. A shift to more raw speed and leaping ability might not be such a bad thing. We all know Beilein can coach like hell.
*Should go without saying, but D1 athletes are "athletic" by definition. So calling someone "unathletic" who gets a scholarship to play basketball at Michigan is...well, it's just relative.
for a front court player. but you are dead in today's game if you don't have at least 2-3 good 3 pt shooters on the floo
Recruiting should be a mix.
You can't have too much of anything other than REALLY good players.
You motto may work for W. Virginia or teams that play a certain way...but for the most part. A bunch of big athletic guys isn't going to win you any more games than a bunch of fundamentally sound shooters.
Both teams have weaknesses that will be exposed at one point or another.
Signed Tommy Amaker
When I saw the subject, I was hoping it meant more athleticism.
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Sure, but not everyone improves much on the skill front. It's a gamble either way. Brent Petway was a great athlete, but was only decent in college because he had serious deficiencies on the offesnsive end. A guy like Evan Eschmeyer was a subpar athlete but was a much better college basketball player than Petway due to his skill level.
Tell that to Shaq and DHoward's free throw skills.
I think the biggest danger in recruiting is to make some kind of wholesale generalization about improving skills. Plenty of young "phenoms" bomb out every year because they can not get their shooting or rebounding or defensive skills to match up with their athleticism.
As for the idea that athleticism cannot be improved in 18-year-olds--look at Stauskas. He was already a great shooter and a more athletic person than your average teen, and he improved every year as an athlete. Look at GR3, whose athleticism hasn't gotten him farther developed.
Brent Petway, anyone?
From one RedHawk to another, sorry.
"Tell that to Shaq and DHoward's free throw skills. "
Not sure those are the best examples.
I don't care if Shaq or Dwight Howard could do anything but dunk, and shot 0% from outside 5 feet - you'd still desperately want them on the floor for everything else they offer.
This is good, I guess, but the only position it really applies to is big men. Historically, Beilein has signed a number of wings and guards (Dawkins, GRIII, Chatman, Stauskas, Ibi Watson, DJ Wilson, Hardaway, Irvin, LeVert) that were/are athletic. It's mostly been the 5 spot that has suffered from a lack of emphasis on athleticism.
Baruti wasn't offered and Cain hasn't signed yet. I hope you are right that he is altering his recruiting philosophy, but we need to see results before I will get too excited.
could be a factor. 1) with a shorter shot clock Michigan doesn't have as much time to run plays requiring a lot of passing, screening. Past few year's have been one of the slower teams based on average possessions per game. Seems like at times still trying to get a shot with just a few seconds left on shot clock. Having athletic guy who can go one on one at the end of shot clock helps. 2) last season refs called defensive fouls more on hand checking than they had in recent memory. So teams that weren't jump shooters benefited on drawing more fouls/free throws.
If I had to choose one I'd take Young but it would be nice to land them both. That would give us a raw, athletic prospect with a high ceiling (Cain) and a skilled, more polished kid with a relatively high floor (Young). Add another good prospect to Young, Cain and Poole (who I love) and we'd have a really solid class.
was a '16 recruit, that they didn't offer, even though they have 2 open scholarships.
Not sure he's a great sign of a philosophy change even though I agree that athleticism needs to be emphasized at the 4 position over skill.
Cain fits the mold but we've seen Beilein recruit athleticism before (Jaylen Brown, Dawkins, GR3, Carlton Brundidge).
It seems to me that Beilein still wants the same things out of guards and wings. The change that may have happened is at the C position. More emphasis on size and numbers, it would seem, with Teske and Davis, than in the past.
OK, not trying to be a wise ass, but if he wasn't going on athletic ability before, What exactly was he after in Dawkins, Chatman, & D.J. Wilson? It sure as hell wasn't shooting or passing skills. As i've said before on here. The key to this program improving all rides on how the Defense improves
Chatman is not an above-average athlete. People liked his ridiculously long arms and vision. He appeared to have pretty good handles for a guy his size, too, although that didn't transpire in college.
Dawkins was a great athlete, good shooter, but lacked the ability to create his own off the dribble.
Wilson also had a good offensive game in h.s., had plenty of hops for a 5, but since he's been at UM the game just seems to move too quickly for him (same with Chatman). He's a tweener, though. Undersized at the 5, a bit too slow at the 4.
was that the OP stressed that offensive skill sets were possibly going to take less precedent to athleticism going forward. I feel like that has already been going on for a couple years, but we've just been missing. No disrespect to any of the kids, but Chatman and Wilson were never able to hit water if they fell out of a boat. (except the BTT Indiana game. Thanks again for that Kam!)
Wilson is a below average athlete for the position he was recruited to play and projects to play this year. DJ Wilson is athletic for 5 but that's about it. He has the potential for 3 point shooting (as a 4) and is long (for a 4). He has the green light to take 3s, as have other combo forwards like Donnal and Bielfeldt and Smotrycz. He fits the "all around game" mode more than athlete mode.
Chatman was basically a prototype recruit for a Beilein 4 in that he had the versatility and skills of a guard but the body of a 4. He has good raw athleticism for a 4. Obviously it didn't work out that way but Chatman profiled as the whole package/both athleticism and all-around skill.
Dawkins was extremely athletic...but he could hit 3s too. He's been UM's best 3 point shooter over the last 2 years. A lot of people think that's Beilein's condition A, B, and C for being a recruit.
only because we haven't ever been able to see enough of him to get a real idea.
Doyle, and Rahkman. I know he hasn't played much, but we've seen enough to understand it's for good reason.
Whatever it takes to get better rebounding. Your point guard should never be the season leader in total rebounds.
In general, yes, he values skill and intelligence and shooting over athleticism and size. But this is the same guy who recruits Blake McLimans and Jordan Morgan to play the same position. They are nothing alike. Same guy who recruits Jaylen Brown and Duncan Robinson for the wing. Same guy who recruits guards like Rahkman and Brundidge who couldn't make 3s in high school and guys like Vogrich and Hatch who don't do anything but. We've had diminutive PGs who score and big PGs who pass (Morris).
I don't think there are too many kinds of players Beilein DOESN'T recruit -- although the physical/enforcer type old school PFs don't seem in his wheelhouse, even though that's sort of what Jordan Morgan became.
"But this is the same guy who recruits Blake McLimans and Jordan Morgan to play the same position. They are nothing alike."
Style of play and general skillset - I agree.
...but they are alike in one area - lack of elite physical measurables. Neither one was an "athletic" player for college basketball.
at the time Beilein didn't have the cachet to pull 4-star athletes.
I suppose you can argue he could have found unrefined athletes like Baruti and Dawkins, but that gets a lot tougher on the frontline since rebounding and defense aren't as hard to teach.
it's overstated. I think Beilein is trying to add a little balance to the roster. It's lacking right now and I don't think that's by design. Beilein was never trying to build a team of Duncan Robinson's. I'd guess he's trying to fill a hole rather than changing his overall recruiting philosophy. Maybe he's making that a higher priority than he would have in the past.
I'm not going to believe he's going away from preferring the same type of skills in most of his guards and wings unitl I see it.
But the myth of building a team of Nik Stauskas/Zak Novak/Duncan Robinson's seems to be a thing that is hard to shake. Some people want us to have 5 white guys who are kinda tall and can hit 3s, play zone defense, and then loose only to the cheater-faced jerks with NBA one-and-dones. A mid-major with some upside every 5-10 years, otherwise why distract from obsessing over the Spring Game.
on every point you made. I hope we're wrong, but I think this upcoming season is going to be more painful than last season. I love JB as a person and would be thrilled if he was able to get program to bounce back, I just don't see it happening
it wasn't that long ago. 2 "bad" years, with exceptional attrition and injuries, one of which we made the tournament in. Seems ridiculous to burn the whole thing down given context.
I've been as diasappointed as anyone witht he '14 and '15 recruiting classes, but at some point you have to move on and hope the '13 seniors and '16 freshman can combine to produce a very good team.
There's an excellent chance they do.
How can you honestly say "There's an excellent change they do"? I would aruge there is a much better chance that they are not a very good team. There are exactly 3 players on this team that I have high hopes for and 1 of those 3 is a true Freshman. Outside of Rahkman, Wagner, and the incoming Simpson, I am not excited about anybody on this team. Sure a guy like Walton or Irvin could bounce back and have a great senior season, I just would not bet anything on that happening.
that I appear to be typing with the flippers of an obese walrus today
Walton and Irvin are really good players. You should be excited. They haven't kicked their games into all-conference mode so far but it should surprise nobody if they do. Irvin, in particular has gotten better every year. Walton stagnated, but it seems like coaching to his strengths would improve his efficiency significantly. Keep in mind last year's offense was organized around Levert, with help from Spike. Derrick and Zak are different players - and very good.
Rhakman and Robinson are quality complements. Donnal seems to know what he is doing now and is capable.
All 5 starters are going to be senior-aged and experienced.
To that mix you add a talent injection from freshman and the big X factor -- Moritz Wagner. You should not sleep on Teske or Davis coming in and helping immediately. Having a legit 5 could be significant. Watson is likely to help too.
Michigan is short one 6th man (at wing or guard) from being a viable conference title contender right now, but that guy could be Wilson or Watson.
Agree to disagree I guess. I would not consider Walton or Irvin to be "very good". I agree that both have shown potential to be very good, but in my opinion neither have shown the consistency for me to call them that. I guess you are much more optimistic than I am that they are going to play much better than they did last season. I hope you are right and I am wrong!
Also you have to consider how lowsy Irvin and Walton's supporting cast was, relative to previous 5+ years.
I agree that the supporting cast isn't nearly as good as years past, but you can't have it both ways. The overall lack of talent is why expectations should remain relatively modest for this team (i.e., try to keep our heads above water in the B1G, spring a home upset or two, maybe make the tournament).
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The '15 team was bad. The '16 team was better. The '17 team should be even better.
I can have it both ways' because I'm projecting ahead and assuming improvement because experience matters. People get better.
Donnal is a huge step down from McGary/Morgan/Horford.
MAAR/Robinson are huge step down from the 'other' starters when the 'other' starters were Stuaskas, LeVert, Robinson, etc.
Michigan is going to have 5 returning starters who are all the same age (seniors, effectively).
Walton is an above average B1G point guard. At this point his professional career will probably consist of bouncing between the end of the bench on an NBA team and the D league, or disappearing in Europe.
But he'd have to make a serious leap to get a legit NBA shot. At this point, even with a reasonably better senior year he's likely headed for Europe and trying to work his way back to NBA/NBDL. Size and inability to consistently get to the rim limit his stock.
If you look at points per minute, Irvin has actually regressed every single year.
since his role as a freshman was sit in the corner and shoot shoot shoot, basically what Robinson did last year
Every other player on the roster has seen their PPM go up over their career.