Bad O-Lines and UM QBs
So I was looking at the QBs under Harbaugh and thought this was something to consider. Everyone is complaining about his inability to develop a QB, but I think they’re overlooking the poor O-Line play.
Let’s take a look at Michigan QB injuries:
Ruddock vs Minnesota in 2015, Ruddock late vs OSU after a Bosa hit (don’t remember if he came back), Speight 2016 (didn’t play even at at game manager level the rest of his UM career as the collarbone fracture against Iowa made it that he was ineffective), Speight in 2017, then Peters got hurt in 2017, McCaffrey did get hurt 2018 I think but that was on him taking a hit, 2019 supposedly had Patterson getting some sort of abdominal injury the team didn’t elaborate on, 2020 Milton had a broken hand/thumb at some point pre-Penn State and McNamara was hurt in the PSU game.
For as great as I’m told our O-Line coaching is, our QBs are getting hurt a lot and they don’t have anywhere near the time in the pocket that the playoffs teams’ QBs have.
Hard for any QB to play well when they get smoked by LBs and big lineman all game.
January 14th, 2021 at 10:54 AM ^
I love it when Ruddddddddddock makes his return to the blog.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:03 AM ^
I can never tell if people are idiots or if they're in on a joke that's not funny.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:12 AM ^
How about spelling the guy’s name correctly?
January 14th, 2021 at 11:14 AM ^
If 12 years couldn't get us to spell Beilein's name correctly, what chance did Jake have, being here one year?
January 14th, 2021 at 10:56 AM ^
TIL Razor Ruddock played QB for us
January 14th, 2021 at 10:57 AM ^
Our offensive lines have been just what they look like...fine. Nothing spectacular.
Nothing like some of the Carr era offensive lines. Even last year with four players picked and Ruiz picked in the first round.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:05 AM ^
OLine protection fell off with RichRod, never to regain consistent run dominance or effective pass protection. No QB performance since has overcome this for an entire season, or left a healthy QB in place for season end.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:10 AM ^
Every year I try to explain traditional Michigan OLine's to my 13 year old and he just nods at me like I'm an old fool.
January 14th, 2021 at 7:22 PM ^
How is he 13 every year?
January 14th, 2021 at 12:23 PM ^
The 2007 offensive line was a disaster. Rich Rod actually put together a decent offensive line by year 3, but he had to basically start from scratch. I think he had something like 6 scholarship offensive linemen in 2008, besides the true freshmen.
January 14th, 2021 at 2:16 PM ^
Yeah, it was awesome the year before RichRod.
January 14th, 2021 at 3:11 PM ^
I'm sure i've seen that picture before, but holy shit is it amazing. There almost has to be something going on there that I don't understand. It looks like only one UM player (Left Guard) got even a piece of the OSU player lined up in front of them. This is all prior to the presumed handoff. I really hope this wasn't playaction. Ha
January 14th, 2021 at 3:59 PM ^
It looks like a coordinated and planned effort for every lineman to miss his block.
January 14th, 2021 at 10:58 AM ^
Rudock, Speight, and Peters I think were definitely victims of getting massacred by a spotty OL.
The other guys just didn't seem all that durable. As a QB, your gonna take hits, especially if you are running RPO's. You need to learn how to take hits and protect your body (and the ball).
Meanwhile Justin Fields breaks his ribs and proceeds to throw 6 touchdowns against Clemson.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:00 AM ^
I don't think QBs getting hurt is exactly our OLs fault. I mean no you don't want your QB injured. But they are still going to get sacked somewhat during a regular season. It just so happens that those injuries at Michigan derail our entire season.
This year, I thought our QBs largely had pretty good pockets. Milton tended to hold on to the ball too long, whether that be because of indecisiveness or covered WRs. McNamara and McCaffrey both had tough injuries when they were runners trying to make plays. It sucks but thats an open risk when you have running QBs
January 14th, 2021 at 11:14 AM ^
Definitely the o-line’s fault when Milton throws a dart right to the chest of the defender or can’t complete a pass over 5 yards, and Patterson couldn’t hit a wide open receiver. Maybe the QBs aren’t that good. Possibly why Patterson was cut by the Chiefs before day one of training camp.
January 14th, 2021 at 12:35 PM ^
Exactly. Good QBs can make OLines like Michigan has had look even better by being able to make quick decisive decisions. Give opposing defenses less time to get to the QB and your OL suddenly looks great.
Michigan under Harbaugh has seemed to have a pattern of running long convoluted plays that take too long to develop AND having QBs that can make quick accurate passes. The whole "speed in space" thing was supposed to address that -- especially this season. Make quick passes to take pressure off the OL. But they didn't do much of any of that. Still calling plays like they have an all-world OL, QB, and WRs.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:01 AM ^
Well, Michigan had 4 guys drafted and 2 of them are NFL starters from the last NFL draft...Mayfield has been mocked in the first round, so unlikely he'd fall to Day 3
Not sure if its necessarily development as opposed to playcalling, though development of offensive skill positions has been fairly tepid
January 14th, 2021 at 11:05 AM ^
Maybe it's just football. Guys get hurt. We knocked out OSU's QB, but his backup beat us. Fields got busted up against Clemson, but finished the game. It's a violent sport and QB's get hit. Find ways to win the game.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:02 AM ^
As you stated, McCaffrey got hurt running, and Patterson was hurt on the first play from scrimmage in 2019 on a QB run that had he not fumbled, would have picked up a first down, so not the OL. Regarding Speight, injuries happen, and I would hardly say that the 2016 OL was a poor offensive line, sometimes you just get unlucky. I don't blame Harbaugh for the lack of development for Speight, Rudock or O'Korn. I think the bigger concern is that he has yet to identify a real good talent and develop it.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:16 AM ^
So, who is to blame for O'korn's lack of development? Harbaugh had him for three years AND offered him a scholarship.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:45 AM ^
Regarding O'Korn my thought is that he just wasn't a good Big Ten QB that could be developed.
Harbaugh still gets dinged because of the lack of evaluation.
January 14th, 2021 at 12:39 PM ^
I think it's less development and more finding out what your QB and other players are good at, and building your offense around that. Figure out what O'Korn can do, ask him to do more of that, and build off those elements. Stay away from the shit he can't do. If you're good at tailoring things to what people are good at, that's where development comes from.
Michigan under Harbaugh likes to run head first into a wall repeatedly instead of checking to see if they can go around or over it.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:04 AM ^
And top echelon teams have good everything.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:05 AM ^
Many teams manage to develop OLs, starting QBs, and gasp backup QBs all at the same time. The reason we have poor QB play is because Harbaugh insists on stuffing them all in the same game manager box regardless of whether they fit.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:06 AM ^
I'd agree it is a combo of both but I'd say it weighs more heavily on bad QB play than bad O-line. 65-35.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:08 AM ^
I appreciate the thought and perspective but I view it a little bit like pressure vs. coverage. One may be a touch more important than the other and can cover up for deficiencies with the other, but it’s really about both.
Having a clear understanding of your offense, the defensive scheme, your protections, and knowing how to progress through your reads, taking easy stuff when it’s there, and being able to get into the correct play all play a part. There were surely some oline busts but I think it’s on the qb and offensive coaching staff as a whole, rather than primarily oline issues.
January 15th, 2021 at 9:30 AM ^
Spot on.
We took a lot of coverage sacks this year.
Milton especially did not throw the ball away when he should have.
Our wide receivers are just OK at getting open. Then our QBs can't find them.
The OLine play has gotten much, much better with Warriner.
The Ruddock, Speight, OKorn, Peters era did suffer from legitimately bad offensive lines.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:09 AM ^
Patterson injured his oblique on the first play of the season 9 yards past the line. DMac broke his collar on a run past the line, and got a concussion from being targeted as he was hurdling a guy 6 yards past the line, and Cade got hurt while running and trying to get a touchdown.
I don’t blame the OL for any of those.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:16 AM ^
Why is it that our running QBs get whacked and other QBs keep on trucking?
Good observation though.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:10 AM ^
Historically QBs have a much higher completion percentage when throwing the ball from an upright position.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:29 AM ^
The team that scores the most points in a game also has a higher winning percentage than the team that doesn't.
January 14th, 2021 at 12:07 PM ^
We should write a book together.
January 14th, 2021 at 3:13 PM ^
You guys are addressing some pretty high nuances and details. You might be writing over the heads of most fans.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:22 AM ^
A healthy Joe Milton looked completely lost against MSU, Indiana, Wisconsin and Rutgers. I'm sure you can blame the line and pressure for a portion of that, but then why did Cade immediately look light years better when he entered the game?
Yes, Harbaugh had a reputation of being a QB whisperer, but I'm trying to figure out what the heck McDaniels was doing.
I would love to se Harbaugh more directly involved in coaching QBs within Gattis' system.
January 14th, 2021 at 1:21 PM ^
I would love to se Harbaugh more directly involved in coaching QBs
Well based on the rumors Harbaugh is now the QB coach, so it looks like you'll get your wish. Fingers crossed!
January 14th, 2021 at 4:55 PM ^
Not clear we had a healthy Milton for those games.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:27 AM ^
The OL has gotten a bit of a pass and while Warinner has definitely been better than Drevno, I haven't been particularly overjoyed with the OL. Some of it is certainly scheme induced, but they have been pretty average on the ground, even in 2019 with a bunch of upperclassmen who went to the NFL. Pass protection has been much better than it was in the Hoke years (congrats I guess) but overall they haven't been paving people to the extent we thought they would.
Injuries hampered them this year to a degree, but the OL didn't play particularly well against MSU when they had the original 5 starters out there (Hayes and Mayfield were hurt late in that game).
The Rudock and Speight injuries were due to hits taken in a pass set (the Iowa Speight play was a bit of a scramble IIRC) but otherwise the QB injuries haven't been OL induced really.
January 14th, 2021 at 12:54 PM ^
Drevno couldn't recruit here... and he picked Ulizio over Swenson. These west coast guys get eaten alive in the Midwest. Can't think of a single coach that made it, maybe John Cooper was the closest.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:44 AM ^
OLs have been serviceable. The one constant for 4-5 seasons has been either lack of seperation vs man coverage, or failure to adjust routes into space vs zone by UM receivers.
Some teams put up more plus yardage plays in one game than this offense can muster all season.
Think about the last time you saw ball in stride 30+ yard touchdowns, hitting the open man in the hands, or crafty guys burning a zone all day.
(Arm punts to Nico don't count)
It's been a damn long time.
Couple that with still haven't had a QB that can know what's going on at the snap, exploit it, and keep on doing it.
That's kinda what all the above average QBs do.
Our OL isn't a sieve, and isn't the problem, our offense just sputters along season after season with a total lack of identity.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:45 AM ^
Maybe Jerry Hanlon will finally get some appreciation in these parts now. Hard to believe how we weren't able to continue strong OL play with elders like Hanlon involved with the program.
I knew well a few of the OL starters on Bo and Mo's squad, and the profound reverence they had for Hanlon was quite evident.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:46 AM ^
Our QBs repeatedly make poor reads, don’t go through progressions, struggle with the RPO and are atrocious at reading defenses. That is all coaching. Of course you need a good oline, but a well taught QB should be able to do all of these things regardless.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:53 AM ^
ER, get some posters made up in prescription format of that first sentence, damn, is that ever UM gospel
.
January 14th, 2021 at 12:51 PM ^
Lol, I actually just stole that line from OSUs scouting report;)! I honestly don’t blame any of the individual players. Despite recruiting rankings, all of our QBs appear to have the same deficiencies which can only be due to coaching. None of the QBs that have spent more than 1 year in our system made significant progress from year to year. It’s very concerning.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:51 AM ^
From what I can tell UM is tied for the lead with 9 OL on NFL rosters with Wisconsin, Iowa, and OSU that played under JH. PSU only has 5 for example. Mason Cole, Ben Bredeson, Michael Schofield, Graham Glasgow, Ben Braden, Jon Runyan Jr, Erik Magnusson, Mike Onwenu, & Cesar Ruiz are all on NFL rosters. And, that leaves out Omameh & Lewan who didn't play under JH (UM has more OL in the NFL than any other B1G team). I also feel like guys have performed better in the NFL than at UM. Onwenu seems like a good example of this. I have to assume that scheme, development, and coaching are more the problem than talent. The only other thing I can think of is that there were big holes where 4 guys did their job and one didn't?
January 14th, 2021 at 12:58 PM ^
Since Jumbo Elliott, we had usually the biggest tackles in the country... Skrepenak was another, Long, Lewan.... then went to Cole because had nobody else, and he should have been playing guard. And Mayfield while good, should be playing inside. We need to get back to having massive tackles, and getting Persi and Bounds are good starts.. but we need two a year. Not one every other year.
What was disappointing was not getting Faaele, who went to Warinner with Minnesota. Obviously he was a take for Warinner so I wonder who passed on him for...
January 14th, 2021 at 1:02 PM ^
I also feel like guys have performed better in the NFL than at UM.
I think this is very true. some of those guys had great careers at M, some didn’t. Many guys are taken in the NFL due to potential and measureables. I don’t know that # of draft picks is an exact representation of a staffs ability to develop them. A lot of guys are studs but underachieve under Harbaugh, but some have turned out to be better than their assumed potential, aka Runyan. I would say that despite our good NFL numbers, it sure doesn’t feel like we our OL consistently dominates. Again, perhaps it’s coaching, poor reads and block pickups, etc and not talent related.
January 14th, 2021 at 11:56 AM ^
Michigan's OL was meh in 15 and 16 and awful in 17; old-timers will recall that the thread discussing Nolan Ulizio's elevation to the starting lineup featured the biggest, neggiest meltdown in the history of this site, still sitting cleanly atop Mount Negmore as expertly carved by The Fugitive.
I don't believe it hurt the development of the QBs in 15 and 16, though it did hurt the team insomuch as the ability to run for a single first down in the fourth quarter with a lead against either Iowa or Ohio State could have won either of those games. And I am quite confident that the problems with QB development, particularly in the mess that was 2017 (it's not like Speight was getting the yips against a Bosa; he flatly refused to throw a catchable ball into the end zone against Air Force and Cincy and ignored hand-wavingly wide open players on a regular basis), go beyond OL problems. But it was a disaster in 2017 and definitely contributed to those guys getting hurt.
OL was a problem early in the Harbaugh tenure, and that's one area where we can hold Hoke partly responsible, and Harbaugh partly responsible for trusting Drevno to fix it, and then hiring an extra OL coach and kinda hoping it would all work out in 2017. But, to his credit, he hired Ed Warinner and Warinner absolutely knows what he's doing, forging that line that has all those NFL picks. As long as Warinner is here, I trust him to do the job well.
One might ask why, given the NFL caliber of the line, Michigan wasn't even more impressive on the OL, and that's a valid question; I don't have Brian's UFR stats handy, but I believe one of the reasons is that we didn't do a good job calling plays that used our numbers effectively. All 5 linemen could do a great job, but if that extra unblocked defender doesn't have to respect, say, Shea Patterson as a running threat, we're still not set up for success.
January 14th, 2021 at 12:10 PM ^
So QB's don't play as well with bad OL's? I never would have guessed. How else may you enlighten me?
January 14th, 2021 at 1:49 PM ^
The more apt quip here is "OLs don't play well with bad QBs". Watching the scatter-brained panic attacks at the snap of the ball from O'Korn and Patterson for three years-how the hell do you block for those guys???