Are you willing to accept that Michigan is a more popular version of Wisconsin?
Because that's exactly what we are if you're willing to accept our ceiling is 9-10 wins ,a .500 record against them, and getting torched by OSU.
Nevermind that we out-recruit Wisconsin on a yearly basis, but I've been told we don't have the talent to compete with OSU.
Oh, and we also have finished below Penn State 3 out Harbaugh's 5 years, so there's that too. But Frames Janklin!
Harbaugh will get a 6th year. Produce or go after that.
December 1st, 2019 at 4:58 AM ^
I don't think he gets fired.
December 1st, 2019 at 5:15 AM ^
Maybe not even a Wisconson level program anymore. The rivalry with OSU no longer exists, that has become a joke and nat'l interest is no longer there. The 9-10 ceiling is highly questionable. Recruiting is going to suffer no doubt. The UM brand/name is definitely not what it was in years past. UM is by no means an elite football program, far from it. All that is left to tell the recruits is " Come to Michigan young man we still have the coolest uniforms out there, but set your expectations low because UM isn" t winning shit. You could go on a cool trip though". So yeah about middle of the pack in the B1G , and thats a good year. UM dreams of Wisconson level football.
December 1st, 2019 at 6:11 AM ^
Under their current coach, wisc is 10-3, 11-3, 13-1, 8-5 and 10-2. That is with playing a B1G west schedule and WMU and Miami (ytm) twice in bowl games. They are consistently making the B1G championship game because they are in the west division.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:18 AM ^
And...
December 1st, 2019 at 7:57 AM ^
And . . . if you ponder just a little, you might get the obvious point he is making.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:25 AM ^
You mean lobby for a move to the west so UM just might have a chance. Yeah, sounds logical because UM has no chance in the east. Just accept the fact UM is middle of the road in the east and move on. Your life won't be as difficult coming up with excuses. Something to ponder or just keep up with the "ifs" and excuses. Whatever makes it easy for you.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:14 AM ^
How is the 9-10 win ceiling “highly questionable”? It’s certainly not lower than that, but the tone of the rest of your post suggests you don’t think it’s higher. Did you mean “highly accurate”?
December 1st, 2019 at 5:36 AM ^
We aren’t beating OSU next year with Fields returning and the game being in Columbus. We don’t have much talent on the D-Line.
Our best chance is in 2021...McCaffrey will be a senior.
December 1st, 2019 at 5:37 AM ^
McCaffrey will be a senior.
What will that mean?
December 1st, 2019 at 7:42 AM ^
Hopefully he’ll have been passed on the depth chart by a Trevor Lawrence-type star. Nothing at all against McCaffrey, but do truly elite, OSU-beating, Playoff-making QBs have to wait their turn for years before getting a chance?
December 1st, 2019 at 8:37 AM ^
They'll get their chance. Probably on another team, but they'll get their chance.
December 1st, 2019 at 5:36 AM ^
No, I'm not willing to accept your opinion.
December 1st, 2019 at 6:12 AM ^
This team completely exceeded my exp expectations this season.
I’m also completely fine with what we have, The alternative is way worse. We were complete dog shit before he arrived and have been nationally relevant every year he has been in AA. Michigan has ONE National title in the last 70 years. If Harbaugh stays, he’ll definitely get us at least 1 title. Without major misses at QB and OL early on, he might already have one. His win percentage is right in line with the overall historical win percentage for the program.
To me this is the equivalent of complaining about Carr...you think the grass is greener and it is 100% not. Considering all factors (expected tenure included), I can’t think of another coach who I’d rather have running the program.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:14 AM ^
If you still believe Harbaugh will win a NC here, I don't know what to tell you other than keep dreaming. You're probably better off than the rest of us staring at the grim reality of where this program is.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:23 AM ^
Agree 100%! JH is not winning a title at UM, B1G or Nat'l. People have dreams man, but dreams can be nightmares also.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:45 AM ^
I agree with the above poster except for the NC. I'd bet Harbaugh can get us to the playoff, but I just don't think Michigan will ever recruit well enough to beat OSU, win the B1G, and win 2 playoff games. Michigan isn't willing to move the money needed for that
December 1st, 2019 at 9:46 AM ^
We've won one national title in 70 years, in both football and basketball. National titles are wonderful outliers. They can't be the measuring stick.
December 1st, 2019 at 6:14 AM ^
Wisconsin wins their division pretty regularly; we’re Iowa during a good year.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:44 AM ^
In case you haven’t noticed, Wisconsin’s division is garbage while ours includes a consistent Playoff/NC-contender on par with Alabama and Clemson.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:46 AM ^
and a Penn State program that is about as talented as we are
December 1st, 2019 at 8:37 AM ^
Michigan is more like a Lloyd Carr like Michigan. Exception being, at least he beat Ohio State and won B1G titles. In terms of winning 9 to 10 games a season, we're there.
December 1st, 2019 at 9:01 AM ^
Lloyd Carr beat Wisconsin And Penn State with regularity. Harbaugh can’t even do that. He’s worse than Lloyd Carr.
December 1st, 2019 at 9:37 AM ^
Harbaugh is 5-4 against those two schools. What record would you expect? Both of them have been more consistent than Michigan over the last 15 years. We've had to catch up to them under Harbaugh.
The OSU record sucks but that's pretty much it. If we win the bowl, he'll be .800 against everyone else.
December 1st, 2019 at 10:03 AM ^
Harbaugh can’t win on the road. That’s a consistent theme with his tenure. This leads the team to dropping games it has no business losing then we all play the game of “omg were soooo much better if it wasn’t for 1 2 3 4” come end of season before the annual Buckeye beat down. Rinse and repeat.
December 1st, 2019 at 10:10 AM ^
This leads the team to dropping games it has no business losing
Lloyd Carr (early version) could be accused of this. He'd beat OSU and lose to Northwestern. But which games have we lost under Harbaugh that we had no business losing?
2016 Iowa and...?
Losing to 10-2 Wisconsin and 10-2 PSU on the road is a bummer, but those aren't exactly gimmes.
December 1st, 2019 at 10:15 AM ^
2019 PSU. Hell 2019 Wisconsin. Both teams look quite mortal this year. We made them look like OSU while running roughshod over us yet are on par talent with PSU and out-talent Wisconsin. So what is it?
Maybe Harbaugh is just a meh coach with okay results that were good enough. Not anymore.
Regardless he’s not going anywhere next year so here’s to y’all doing this same song and dance next year
December 1st, 2019 at 10:32 AM ^
And your boy Scott Frost is 9-15 at Nebraska. Cognitive dissonance is fun.
December 1st, 2019 at 6:31 AM ^
I’m not really ok with accepting it. But I’m also feeling pretty powerless - the talent gap is obvious, and probably very difficult to overcome - and all I can really do is log onto the internet and bitch about recruiting. So... shrug?
December 1st, 2019 at 8:44 AM ^
In the postgame yesterday, Jon Jansen said there is no talent gap--we have the guys. Harbaugh said, right after the game when asked about what happened said, "Well, I, ah.....ah...........we need to prepare.....I need to, ah....prepare better. Yeah...."
I think Jansen's on to something.
December 1st, 2019 at 9:13 AM ^
That's kind of him to say, but he's wrong.
OSU's current roster has 13 five-stars and 47 four-stars.
Our current roster has 4 five-stars and 36 four-stars.
December 1st, 2019 at 6:50 AM ^
No. I'm not sure we are better OR more popular than Wisconsin. So far this century, Wisconsin has won 188 games to our 166. Sadly, most of us are still hoping the pre-2000 glory years will return. Good luck with that. As regards popularity, we are tremendously biased in our self-appraisal thereof. Having lived in a number of places around the country during that period of time, I can assure you that many folks regard us as a hopelessly fading dynasty football-wise.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:03 AM ^
No, because we are more like Iowa than Wisconsin, who wins the West frequently. I think Iowa is a more apt comparison.
December 1st, 2019 at 9:37 AM ^
And Iowa actually beat Meyer
December 1st, 2019 at 7:15 AM ^
You might be right, but I don’t think UM is at its ceiling. I still believe It takes some time for the program to get enough talent where there’s no holes in the roster. Recruiting needs to be solid. When Harbaugh started, it was the OLine in a mess. They’ve fixed that for the most part. Now the DLine is thin. Need to fix that. And QB play has been rocky. That seems to have potential going forward. The offense became more explosive, now they need to take an honest look at the defense. I hate that OSU is in that elite tier, but UM won’t get there without some stability for awhile.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:15 AM ^
Ohio State has better talent, and devotes at least some time during every practice to preparing for a single game on their schedule.
But what they had over Michigan yesterday was composure. We didn't have it. We were Sparty on the field yesterday, with the dumbass penalties and mental mistakes. OSU gave us early opportunities to be in the game yesterday, perhaps even win it, and they were squandered.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:44 AM ^
You got the better talent part right. Where I differ is not so much how much they practice against Michigan is how much better they execute those plays during the game, at game speed. Saw the Fox TV graphic which listed three of their players as Heisman candidates: Fields, Dobbin and Young.
Michigan would need that, our roster, say Mc Caffery, Haskins and maybe Dax Hill or something to that effect, for next year.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:20 AM ^
In the history of Michigan football, they have won 11 ganes 5 times. 9-10 wins has been the ceiling as long as I have been alive.
Why does anyone think it has ever changed?
December 1st, 2019 at 7:35 AM ^
You are correct sir. The funny thing about it is, well one would think that 8 mil might get UM through that 9-10 ceiling, but it doesn't. What it does get UM is 2-3 wins more than the RR and Hoke type coaching. Not much ROI if you ask me. If one was to judge coaching by the same criteria, JH is no doubt better, but really how much better.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:46 AM ^
Not defending the salary, but the difference between a 6-7 win team and a 10-11 win team is pretty substantial from this fan’s perspective.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:46 AM ^
Good thing literally nobody cares about coaches salaries, except you apparently
December 1st, 2019 at 8:38 AM ^
Agreed, the stats don't lie.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:43 AM ^
Wisconsin has still been far more successful in the last five years, but the caveat applies that they play in an incredibly weak western division.
You swap Michigan and Wisconsin and Michigan probably makes the BTCG at least 75% of the time, and meanwhile Wisconsin never sniffs the BTCG ever again. So they’re a good program with more hardware to show off than Michigan, but they have a far easier road to get to that hardware.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:41 AM ^
They beat us this year and 2017...how do they "never sniff the big ten title game again"? Thats literally the point of the post. In the West we'd be exactly what they are evey other year and get blown out against OSU.
December 1st, 2019 at 10:19 AM ^
They’d never sniff the BTCG because they’d share a division with and have to play OSU every year. They haven’t beaten OSU in almost 10 years, and aren’t about to start doing it now.
The point of my post is that compared to Michigan, Wisconsin has the results that they do because they play in a division that Michigan would also run over just about every single year.
December 1st, 2019 at 7:57 AM ^
Michigan recruits well enough to be a top 15 program but not even close to well enough to compete with the OSU, Clemson, Georgia and Alabama-caliber programs. When was the last time Michigan produced someone on the same level as a Michael Thomas, Zeke Elliott or Marshon Lattimore? Or one of the Bosa brothers? (Please don't say Gary or Winovich, I'll start sobbing in my Cheerios.)
If you don't have an elaborate, stealth system of paying players then you just better accept your lot in life, which will be OSU winning 22-23X every 25 years. Michigan is trying to live up to an impossible standard (compete with OSU, compete for the CFP, play by the rules). Those things are fundamentally incompatible.
Even Duke basketball, which I would have argued was previously a nice comp for what Michigan football tries to be, gave up and got in bed with the shoe companies a few years ago. If your network isn't paying the kids and their families, someone else's network will. Stop trying to pretend you can be all things to all people.
Last but not least, the coaching is woefully inadequate. Harbaugh has been here 5 years and his impact on the QB room has been negligible. The head-scratching penalties that mortally wound them in big games... running into a punter when you're desperately trying to get the ball back (and the other team is trying to give it to you!), the offsides on 4th & 4 yesterday, the mind-melting fake swinging gate XP debacle yesterday... the list of errors goes on.
I give this staff credit for coming in and stabilizing the program... recruiting at a level that allowed Michigan to return to being a solid top-15 program. But this appears to be the ceiling unless sweeping changes as well as a new philosophy are implemented.
Probably the only thing that could save UM football at this point is the death of amateurism. If the elaborate payments become above-board in nature, maybe Michigan strikes back in a big way, but it sure would be nice to do that with a new coaching staff.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:03 AM ^
The brand is still the best in college sports. No question from a business standpoint.
The problem is the coach. Poor in-game coach, average recruiter, insists this is still about shaping young men. The professional college teams don't care if these kids rape half the campus as long as they bring wins. The kids don't care if classes are even held as long as they improve their draft stock.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:04 AM ^
Unacceptable!
back up the brinks truck!
go to the national championship coaches store!
forget 07-14!
any counter argument is an excuse!
we have enough talent to instant win but for the rubes in charge!
?
December 1st, 2019 at 8:29 AM ^
Splitting the conference into divisions really screwed up everyone’s calibration on what is a successful season. Michigan was co big ten champions last year if the conference were not split into divisions; a nearly identical season to 2004 which by all accounts was deemed successful. Everyone knows the divisions are not even; Michigan would alternate with Wisconsin winning the west every year.
Michigan’s rival is in the midst of a historically awesome run, and their emphasis on beating Michigan hasn’t waned a bit. Nobody else in the country faces this circumstance except Auburn, and they’ve made it very clear they’re willing to pay players to stay competitive. We might only be a couple years away from a rule change that finally levels the playing field, but until that day comes it’s going to be this every year: beat nearly everyone on the schedule, lose a tough road game or two, and lose to Ohio State. That’s just reality, and expecting anything different is asking for disappointment.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:45 AM ^
I think UM is like Bo Pelini Nebraska or Mark Richt Georgia. Win at a consistent rate but never really go nowhere.
December 1st, 2019 at 8:55 AM ^
For all you losers who are ready to give up, think if a young Bo just walked through the door. We give Bo a year to figure out the lay of the land since he was coaching. Would he get embarrassed by OSU like we have the last few years?
If yes, we'd still have no chance--then, please continue crying and tearing of loincloths.
If no, we'd kick some Buckeye ass--then, realize it's not players, refs, "bagmen", etc. It's coaching. Here's a shocking revelation--Bo's not coming back. However, there is someone better than what he have out there, somewhere. Do we have the courage and leadership to try? Or, do we prefer to go through this on a yearly basis? At some point, we need to accept our fate or seek our destiny.