30 for 30: The Tuck Rule
Did anyone else catch this episode? Charles Woodson vs. Tom Brady, Raiders @ Pats in the snow, a pivotal play featuring an obscure rule. Charles @ Tom's house to watch the highlights.
By the rule it was incomplete because Brady had not yet tucked the ball, so the process of the pass was not complete, even though he had brought the ball down. If Woodson had not been as fast, had gotten there a fraction of a second later, it would have been tucked (I assume Brady getting his other hand on the ball would qualify), and hence a fumble when Woodson knocked it out. If the Raiders had recovered and run out the clock, they move on to face the Steelers. And Brady would have to wait to win his first Super Bowl.
It's on ESPN2 again Wed @ 2 AM ET (or later, given our b-ball game plus another Tu night) and Th @ 11:30 PM ET (or later, given the b-ball double header that night).
February 8th, 2022 at 8:04 AM ^
what everybody overlooks is that charles gave brady a shot to the head and that should've drawn a 15 yd penalty and a first down. the raiders lucked out and all the whining afterwards overlooks that critical presupposition.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:06 AM ^
Also Brady tried to trip the Raider going for the ball. Offsetting penalties? But still Pats' ball.
February 8th, 2022 at 9:31 AM ^
I have no dog in this fight, but trying to justify that as a clear "shot to the head" seems a bit much as it grazed the side of his helmet. Especially 20 years ago when there was not as much an emphasis on protecting the QB or head with CTE. That kind of incidental contact happens on every play in football. By rules today, that is also a fumble. The clearest penalty on the play to me is as posted above, Brady trying to trip the defensive player.
It's crazy how much of that game is overshadowed by the "tuck rule." I didn't even remember the Troy Brown fumble on the punt return or the Raiders inability to pick up a 1st down on 3rd and short.
February 8th, 2022 at 11:21 AM ^
the QB was getting special protection back then. and you can see brady's head jerk pretty well, it was more than 'grazed' with the hand.
February 8th, 2022 at 11:53 AM ^
He's swiping down at the ball, and there is no intent to deliver a blow to the head. I'm sorry, but "grazed the head" is closer to accurate than Brady's head "jerk pretty well." If you slow anything down, you can make it look worse. If you graze someone's head, of course it is going to move. And it is not direct contact; Woodson makes contact with the side of hand on side of helmet.
And most of the extra rule changes protecting QBs and stricter enforcement of existing rules came after this game. Here is a summary of some of them:
https://www.insidehook.com/article/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created-golden-era-quarterback-stats
February 8th, 2022 at 11:47 AM ^
Wut? "...no dog in the fight"?? Who is that #2 player in your avatar!! (jk)
February 8th, 2022 at 10:28 AM ^
I may be wrong, but I don't think a hand to a QB's helmet was a rule like it is now. This was 20 years ago
February 8th, 2022 at 11:19 AM ^
the rule was in effect back then. first version started in 1996, then added to after that. i remember watching the game live and was surprised nobody mentioned that on the broadcast. brady's head jerks fairly fast when charles' hand hits it.
February 8th, 2022 at 1:52 PM ^
The rule has either been changed or is much more strictly enforced now.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:04 AM ^
Tuck comin'?
Brady balling!
February 8th, 2022 at 11:52 AM ^
Storm coming?
Hatchet coming.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:34 AM ^
Great show, really fun to watch Brady and Woodson go at it on the couch. However, your post reads like you may not have seen this game live, which makes me feel old.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:38 AM ^
I did see it. Just making an informative post.
February 8th, 2022 at 9:13 AM ^
Which I appreciate! Rare these days, but very nice to see.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:34 AM ^
It was a lot of fun to watch. Just two all time greats and friends sitting around arguing about a football game. Lots of trash talking and Michigan love. I won’t spoil the ending but the “what if” section was really interesting.
a good watch indeed.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:43 AM ^
Really good television. I'd love to watch more content that involves Charles and GOAT talking football.
February 8th, 2022 at 11:49 AM ^
You mean the two GOATs. You will never convince me that Charles Woodson is not the greatest overall football player of all time.
February 8th, 2022 at 3:50 PM ^
I'm ok with that.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:53 AM ^
That was a fun game to watch. If that call goes the other way and Oakland wins, the NFL could have looked a whole lot different. Does Oakland go on to win the Super Bowl and keep Gruden as opposed to trading him to Tampa Bay? Does Pittsburgh win it all and not consider a QB a couple years later in the draft? Does St. Louis win and continue their dynasty? Does Bledsoe get reinstalled as the starter in 2002 and TB12 get traded to Buffalo or elsewhere?
February 8th, 2022 at 10:09 AM ^
I remember being shocked and worrying that Brady's year has come to an end. Then it was reversed. I still can't and don't understand the Tuck Rule.
As per the theory of infinite universes, a separate universe split off from the one we are living in :) Some of these questions have already been answered there. Or in universes that split from it.
February 8th, 2022 at 11:03 AM ^
I was torn about who to root for in that game, but on that play, I felt like Michigan wins either way. Either a Michigan player won the game for Oakland or a Michigan player gets to take his team down field to send the game into OT.
February 8th, 2022 at 11:52 AM ^
Agreed! Like Brandon Graham vs. Tom Brady at the end of the Super Bowl.
February 8th, 2022 at 1:05 PM ^
A lot of great questions there. I tend to think that Pittsburgh beats Oakland (Pittsburgh didn't really take New England seriously in the AFC Title Game - not smart) then loses to Saint Louis in the Super Bowl. So all my answers start from there.
1. Oakland still trades Gruden. They still didn't even make the Super Bowl (in my scenario), much less win it, so it's still time for the Raiders to move on.
2. The Steelers' QB situation to start 2002 is still a 30+ year old Tommy Maddox plus Kordell Stewart. That's not ideal, and they still likely go near .500 combined over the next 2 seasons (they were 10-5-1 in 2002 and 6-10 in 2003 with only 1 playoff win, a miracle comeback against Cleveland). They still take Big Ben in the 2004 draft and go from there.
3. This one is the most interesting question IMO. The Rams now have 2 titles in 3 years and I think their run continues. In reality, their run ended pretty quickly after the Super Bowl loss to the Patriots. But 2 titles in 3 years gives them a lot more "juice." I'd give them another Super Bowl appearance and maybe a title somewhere in the 2002-2005 era (2003 really should have been a Super Bowl year but they choked against Carolina in the NFC Semifinals).
4. Brady was still the QB who got the Patriots to 11-5 in 2001 and won 6 straight games at the end of the year. He was also cheaper than Bledsoe. I think the Pats still keep Brady and Bledsoe is still the one traded to Buffalo. The Pats are still very good in the 2002+ era and the 2001 season Rams/Pats SB that wasn't may instead be the 2003 season Rams/Pats SB that was.
------
Net net: the decade of the 2000s, post 2001, looks virtually the same in the AFC. The biggest long-term impact of a Raiders' win is actually over in the NFC.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:53 AM ^
The NFL Tuck Rule is much, much different than the tuck rule in Thailand. Or so I've been told.
February 8th, 2022 at 8:59 AM ^
Any chance you might be Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs?
February 8th, 2022 at 9:11 AM ^
No chance.
February 8th, 2022 at 10:06 AM ^
That's exactly what Buffalo Bill would say...
February 8th, 2022 at 10:41 AM ^
I'm guessing i've never been seen in the same room as the infamous Buffalo Bill, but I give you my word, I'm not him.
February 8th, 2022 at 5:02 PM ^
Perhaps you've never been "seen" in the same room as Buffalo Bill because you are Buffalo Bill and you're always wearing someone else's skin.
GOT 'EM
February 8th, 2022 at 7:50 PM ^
Yep, your logic is flawless. He's Buffalo Bill.
February 8th, 2022 at 9:03 AM ^
Amazing how different Brady’s career might have been if that fumble isnt overturned. Also, Brady’s house! I’d be searching for my keys for days in that house.
February 8th, 2022 at 9:17 AM ^
Didn’t he lease the home from Jeter?
February 8th, 2022 at 1:44 PM ^
Would Brady's career really have been that different? Sure, he obviously wouldn't have won that Super Bowl, but he took a team that had been 5-11 to the playoffs. Belichick wasn't likely to bench or trade him, and it seems likely that Belichick makes the same sort of decisions that won two out of the next three Super Bowls.
Gruden is a different story. An Oakland win might keep Gruden at Oakland, although it depends on how far they went in the playoffs. Still, that team did go to the Super Bowl the next under Bill Callahan, so who the hell knows.
If Gruden does stay in Oakland, I have no idea how that plays out. The Raiders have gone through a bunch of coaches since then without much luck; Gruden might have been fired after a few years and landed elsewhere, in which case he might have faded into obscurity.
Mike Martz could have won a Super Bowl with the Rams if they'd played another team in the Super Bowl that year. I don't think it makes much of a difference to his career, though.
February 8th, 2022 at 9:18 AM ^
If I’m not mistaken, the “tuck rule” was created by Jame Gumm aka “Buffalo Bill” in 1990. It was essential before declaring, “I’d f**k me.”
February 8th, 2022 at 9:32 AM ^
It was a damn fumble, it will always be a damn fumble. Woodson got hometowned.
February 8th, 2022 at 10:00 AM ^
That was a stupid rule on what everyone knows should be a fumble. From that day forward, I have hated the Patriots.
February 8th, 2022 at 10:06 AM ^
Really? They didn't make the rule. Do you hate every team that won an OT coin toss and then the game?
February 8th, 2022 at 11:50 AM ^
"Do you hate every team that won an OT coin toss and then the game?"
I didn't say it was rational, or made any sense. It just started a burning hatred. It's ok buddy - sports fandom isn't rational, right?
Your question is also off-point. I hated that the Raiders, by any common sense interpretation of a fumble, won the game on that play. But some stupid "tuck rule" changed the outcome.
February 8th, 2022 at 10:57 AM ^
Loved the raiders back then. They had Scott Dreisbach, Sam Sword, Markus Knight, Marcus Ray eventually. Was pulling for them.
February 8th, 2022 at 11:08 AM ^
And Taylor Upshaw's dad
February 8th, 2022 at 1:03 PM ^
And Jon Ritchie, who played for UM and transferred to Stanford. I watched him play in the Tuck Rule game from his house in Berkeley. We were pulling for them too!
February 8th, 2022 at 12:23 PM ^
I was there, amazing night of football in the snow. Make it sound like a raging blizzard, but was just a night where it snowed hard, pure powder type of ski snow. Couldn't see Vinateri's FG from stands, knew it was good when fans in end zone went crazy. Took us almost 3 hours to get out of parking lot, sucked when we ran out of beer after an hour. Have plaque's in the parking lot where the 2 FG's happened. Game winner was the last play in the dump that was Foxboro Stadium.
One take away. Brady has definitely invested in some hair replacement surgery over the years. Guess he was a regular to Dr. Leonard!!! Another sort of Michigan reference, the house is Derek Jeter's that Brady is renting.
February 8th, 2022 at 12:27 PM ^
What is a throw? What is a catch? I don't know, let's make up the rules as we go! - NFL
February 8th, 2022 at 1:16 PM ^
Watched it and loved every minute of it. Seeing those two throw barbs at each other…too much fun. They were two of the greatest at their positions of all time in the NFL.
I especially loved toward the end when they were playing pool, the camera was on the surface of the swimming pool nearby and they had a floating mini Michigan football in the foreground
loved the deep dive and even the production of the “what would have happened if..” part where they did produced interviews after a fan-fiction like game with an alternate ending.
February 8th, 2022 at 3:23 PM ^
One thing I’ve never heard discussed. If it was a pass and not a fumble, it was a backwards pass. The ball was extended slightly away from his body, then hit his body before landing on the ground. Therefore, fumble.
February 8th, 2022 at 11:29 PM ^
Vinatieri credits the Raiders for calling the timeout in the OT to “ice the kicker”, which allowed them to clear a patch in the snow so he could get enough footing to kick the game winner.
February 9th, 2022 at 10:07 AM ^
They had cleared a place to spot the ball, but the TO gave them time to clear a path for him to approach & kick as well. The Raiders should have just let him kick.