Team talent and results: who gets more with less and less with more?

Submitted by Blue@LSU on December 6th, 2023 at 10:31 PM

Another regular season is in the books. Victories have been won and defeats have been suffered. The wheat, as they say, has been separated from the chaff. So we can now look back and try to gauge which teams performed up to expectations, which ones exceeded expectations, and which ones, well, just shit the bed.

But how do we evaluate a season? How do we know if someone met expectations? In some cases, the old eyeball test works just fine. I mean, it’s pretty easy to look at a team like TAMU (Whoop!), with all that 5-star talent, and say ‘WTF?’. On the other hand, I’m pretty sure we would all pretty much agree that Arizona exceeded expectations. Good shit, Jed!

At some point, though, it would also be nice to be able to do this in a more systematic manner across a large number of teams, make comparisons, and maybe even try to see ‘how much’ a team surpassed or fell short of expectations If you’re still reading, I’m guessing you feel the same way.

My plan is simple. I want to look at how well ‘team talent’ corresponds to performance. As the title suggests, I want to know who gets more with less, who gets less with more, and maybe laugh at Florida along the way.

As an added bonus, we can look at these data and maybe see which coaches should be climbing the ladder and which ones should never be paid to coach football ever again. 

247 TEAM TALENT COMPOSITE

Before ‘Buy Bushwood’ (😊) jumps into this diary to tell me how ‘talent’ is such a flawed term, I’m going to preempt and acknowledge his general point. Talent is very difficult to measure, involving both tangibles and intangibles, observables and unobservables. It reminds me of the old joke about Robert McNamara feeding all sorts of observable data (kill ratios, ordinance expended, bridges destroyed, etc.) into a supercomputer in the Pentagon basement in 1967 and asking it when the US would win in Vietnam. The computer’s answer?  You won this war in 1965. (Resolve matters, but isn’t easily quantifiable.)

Nonetheless, we have a standard measure of ‘talent’ that actually does pretty well at identifying things like, say, NFL draft success. The 247 Team Talent Composite provides a team-wide composite measure of each current player's recruiting rating, accounting for transfers (in and out). It’s not perfect. I’m not saying it’s perfect. But it works fairly well.

FEI’s EXPECTED WIN DIFFERENTIAL

Throughout the season, FEI tracks a team’s win differential relative to three different baseline (hypothetical) teams: an elite team, a good team, and an average team. These are defined as follows:

  • Elite teams have an FEI score 2 standard deviations above the mean FEI
  • Good teams have an FEI score 1 standard deviation above the mean FEI
  • Average teams have an FEI score equal to the average FEI.

A team’s win differential is defined as its number of wins compared to the number of wins that an elite/good/average team would be expected to have against the same schedule.

          wins - expected wins (elite/good/average team)

A positive win differential means that the team outperformed the expected win total of an elite/good/average team. Negative values mean they won fewer games than a hypothetical elite/good/average team. A value of zero means they matched the expectations of such a hypothetical team. 

THE GRAPHS

The first graph looks at every P5 team’s Team Talent Composite (y-axis) and FEI Win Differential relative to an ‘elite’ team (x-axis). The values along the x-axis are the number of team wins greater than or less than what would be expected from an elite team. Michigan, for example, won 1.3 more games than we would expect an elite team to win against Michigan’s schedule.

Dashed lines are the average team talent and win differential of all P5 schools. 

I have also shaded two areas of interests. “Elite’ talent teams are shaded in green (get it?). These are the teams with a talent composite ≥ 2 standard deviations above the mean talent composite. The red shaded area covers the teams with ‘elite’ results (a win differential greater than or equal to an ‘elite’ team). 

Unsurprisingly, the elite talent teams (‘Bama, Georgia, and OSU) all achieved elite results. But the teams with the 1st, 2nd, and 4th most elite results, Washington, Michigan, and Florida State, are significantly lower on the team talent composite. These are the teams that exceeded expectations.

Who would we say definitely fell below expectations? Unsurprisingly, Florida, Miami, and TAMU would seem to fit the definition of under performers. TAMU in particular had nearly elite talent, but performed almost exactly as we would expect your average P5 team to perform. Clemson and USC are two other near-elite teams in terms of talent that barely performed above the P5 average. 

Comparisons to ‘elite’ teams might be a bit unfair, though. What happens if we look at win differentials relative to ‘good’ teams? 

I have again shaded two areas of interests. “Good’ talent teams, with a talent composite score ≥ 1s.d. above the average P5 team, are shaded in green. The red shaded area covers the teams with ‘good’ results (a win differential greater than or equal to a ‘good’ team).

As we would expect, quite a few more teams qualify as ‘good’. But once again, Washington leads the pack of over performers with a (nearly) average team talent score but 5 more wins than would be expected from a good team (a team with an FEI score 1s.d. above the mean). Florida State is up there again as well. 

The interesting thing about this graph, though, are the teams in the bottom-right quadrant. These are the ones with significantly less talent than the average P5 school, but that outperform (albeit only slightly) the expectations of a good team. Iowa, NC State, Arizona (good shit, Jed!) fit this bill. 

Once again, TAMU, Florida, Miami, Clemson, and USC underperformed relative to the amount of talent on their teams. One of these coaches has already been fired. Who's next? Is it unthinkable that Dabo's seat might be getting a bit warm?

Anything you find interesting? Any coaches do you think should be on the hot seat given these data? Any coaches you think should be moving up because they are doing more with less?

Thanks for reading. Go Blue!

Comments

M-GO-Beek

December 7th, 2023 at 11:01 AM ^

Don't forget luck. I have no doubt DeBoer is a good coach but with that level of talent and the number of 1 score games Washington played this year, luck was certainly a strong component of their season.  A few plays here or there and they have 2-3 less wins.  Now, you outperform talent rankings and luck over multiple seasons, then you have yourself a great coach. 

Squader

December 12th, 2023 at 1:39 AM ^

As someone who has watched the Huskies closely the past two seasons living in Seattle ... I agree that it's statistically unlikely that a team would win all the close games they've won. And they don't tend to look dominant unless they're really playing a bad team.


But, they went 11-2 last year, not to mention 3 straight over Oregon. At some point I think you're just a good team that finds ways to win, even if you don't blow other teams out much. I know that's kinda feelingsball sounding, but having a bunch of unflappable upperclassman on offense who are dead certain they're gonna make the last score/drive they need to win in a close game has to be a non-luck part of pulling those out.

Blue@LSU

December 9th, 2023 at 1:35 PM ^

I wish I knew R. It wasn't around when I was going through grad school, and so I had to learn a number of different statistical packages: LimDep (for limited dependent variables), RATS (for time-series) and then Stata (which now does everything). I did these analyses with Stata.

I want to learn R myself (along with Python), if for no other reason than I could replace the scatter-points and team labels with those fancy symbols that others use. 😊

What resources are you currently using to learn R? 

MIdocHI

December 6th, 2023 at 11:34 PM ^

It’s interesting that Michigan looks to have the 13th most talent. I thought we were recruiting better than this and were at least top ten. Based on this and the eye test, our results are very good, but it would be helpful to get at least top 10 overall talent. Top 5 would be even better and should be our goal. It would give us some cushion for players that don’t live up to the expectations, get injured or transfer. 

oriental andrew

December 7th, 2023 at 3:00 PM ^

Michigan's 247 composite team rankings since the class of 2019:

  • 2019: #8
  • 2020: #10
  • 2021: #13
  • 2022: #9
  • 2023: #17
  • AVERAGE RANK: 11.4
  • MEDIAN RANK: 10

This doesn't take into account transfers (in or out) and maybe the numbers should be more heavily weighted for the older players vs. the 2022/2023 rankings. 

That said, directionally does tell us that our recruiting has been very good, but not elite. Looking at our CFP competition: 

Alabama: 

  • 2019: #1
  • 2020: #2
  • 2021: #1
  • 2022: #2
  • 2023: #1
  • AVERAGE RANK: 1.4
  • MEDIAN RANK: 1

Texas: 

  • 2019: #3
  • 2020: #8
  • 2021: #15
  • 2022: #5
  • 2023: #3
  • AVERAGE RANK: 6.8
  • MEDIAN RANK: 5

Washington: 

  • 2019: #15
  • 2020: #16
  • 2021: #20
  • 2022: #95 (!)
  • 2023: #26
  • AVERAGE RANK: 34.4
  • MEDIAN RANK: 20
  • AVG EXCL 2022: 19.25

Conclusions: If Alabama does NOT compete for a CFP every season based on the talent they have, they've failed. Their recruiting is still absurd, having never finished lower than #2.

TX rankings don't include Ewers, but would be slightly higher with him. They should also be competing for a CFP every year. 

Great for UW! I assume 2022 was adversely impacted by the coaching transition, but looks like they had a good base otherwise and, of course, Penix Rising. And maybe DeBoer is a total coaching badass. 

Michigan demonstrates that strong (but not elite) recruiting, good use of the portal, coaching, and player development all matter (obvious statement is obvious). 

RAH

December 6th, 2023 at 11:48 PM ^

It's all interesting! I was surprised that Washington and FSU had such low talent levels. Particularly FSU since they are located in the greatest talent pool in the country. I wasn't surprised to see A&M, Florida, Miami, USC, and Clemson in the poorest performing category. . 

I was also surprised to see how far Cincinnati has fallen in both respects. Looks like Fickell jumped ship just in time. (I'm hoping he bombs out in Wisconsin.)

Logan88

December 7th, 2023 at 7:59 AM ^

I was also shocked at FSU's talent level. Hard to believe any Power 5 school in Florida could be that talent deprived.

Washington is this year's TCU. A good team who won more games than they should have and won an absolute shit ton of close games (6 wins by 7 points or fewer and 3 more wins by 10 points or fewer for a total of 9 wins by 10 points or fewer...that is a whole lot of good luck). Let's hope UM doesn't take them as lightly as they seemed to take TCU last year (assuming UM gets past Bama which is a pretty big assumption).

NOTE: Btw, grammar police...should I be using "fewer" or "less"? I genuinely want to know.

HighBeta

December 7th, 2023 at 1:17 AM ^

Genuinely excellent work, thank you!

Can you do and/or develop these analyses across more than one season? It would be interesting to see if these patterns are stable across multiple years; 1. trying to increase N to enhance accuracy and 2. smooth numbers across the changes that may result from scheduled opponents.

So: please don't stop now! Again. Excellent and thanks.

👍👍

Blue@LSU

December 7th, 2023 at 3:15 PM ^

Thanks!

Doing it for multiple years and averaging out the talent and win differentials would definitely be more revealing. I think that'll be a project for the off season. I've got about one week's worth of grading now and then I'm driving up to Michigan to get my fill of cold weather!

HighBeta

December 7th, 2023 at 5:03 PM ^

Welcome! And yep, if there's a consistent/durable pattern? That would be *great* to know.

Finish up the semester, post the grades, hit the road. If you need any extra cold weather, I'm sure we can find some extra for you and ship it over to you.

Enjoy the break!

Amazinblu

December 7th, 2023 at 7:29 AM ^

Great information, as always.  Thank you.

The multi year analysis might be interesting, and - I would argue the Buckeyes have underachieved based on the level of talent on their roster.

One other question comes to mind.  What techniques have the Top Three - Bama, Georgia, and OSU - used to maintain their position at the top of this ranking?  I’m sure everything they have ever done follows the NCAA rules and guidelines to a “T”.

Logan88

December 7th, 2023 at 8:05 AM ^

One other question comes to mind.  What techniques have the Top Three - Bama, Georgia, and OSU - used to maintain their position at the top of this ranking?  I’m sure everything they have ever done follows the NCAA rules and guidelines to a “T”.

At this point, I have come to the conclusion that the NCAA wants players to get paid just as much as everyone else which is why they consistently ignore the obvious cheating via impermissible benefits (aka "The Bag") that teams such Bama, UGA and OSU have engaged in ad infinitum. They only come down on teams for impermissible benefits when they are absolutely forced to do so by such obvious and ham fisted scandals like OSU's tattoo-gate.

XM - Mt 1822

December 7th, 2023 at 7:45 AM ^

harbaugh/michigan recruits high-character kids - kids that love their teammates, coach and school.  that won't show up on a graph, but i am convinced that is the reason we have been reaching these wonderful football heights.  that bond and that grit make for better buy-in and performance at every film session, every practice, and ultimately, every game.  overcoming adversity and dealing with hostile environments.  

you listen to some of those kids talk, mikey and jenkins for instance, and the intellect and character leap off the screen.  love those kids.  happy for them and so proud of our school and where we are in the football world. 

yostlovesme

December 7th, 2023 at 8:52 AM ^

I agree, but I would also add two things.  I think Harbaugh and staff have done a much better job at actually recruiting.  They don't just look at, hey this kid's a five star offer him, but instead look at film and find 3-4 stars who will be just as good if not better than some of the 5 stars.  Or they find kids that may potentially be a 4-5 star while they are 2-3 and offer them at that point.  I think this changes the whole "elite" teams since a lot of players have become elite. (case and point is Sainristil and Barrett) The other point is that they are staying longer.  I would like to see another data point of 4-6 year players on the team vs the elite recruiting classes who only stay 3 years.

Blue@LSU

December 7th, 2023 at 3:26 PM ^

Definitely. And another important thing is that they get in-game experience in live-fire settings. Quinten Johnson's experience playing in non-blowout games against Maryland, OSU, etc. is going to pay real dividends down the road. Some teams (like OSU) may have a 5-star next man up attitude, but Michigan's next-man-up has been in the system and is experienced. 

Vote_Crisler_1937

December 9th, 2023 at 8:25 AM ^

I’m curious about the experience factor. M seems to have a lot of 4-5-6 year players who have played a lot of snaps/plays. Position group rotations haven’t narrowed as much as Brian predicted and (safeties, corners, DL) and M has even found ways to get more offensive linemen in the game. Even Jimmy Rolder is likely redshirting this season and played a really meaningful 2 snaps vs OSU. 
 

It seems like other teams don’t do this. I’ve read OSU fan complaints that even young 5 stars are too inexperienced on their team. 
 

If other teams do what M does, do they also overachieve? 

LeCheezus

December 7th, 2023 at 10:34 AM ^

I know you put out caveats on 247 Team Composite but I'll get on my soapbox anyways.  Couple of issues with it: 

- Teams that amass talent every year through top recruiting classes look way more talented than what is actually getting put on the field.  Having 20 four and five star true freshman is likely a great outlook for the future, but how many of those guys are actually playing outside of kickoff and punt coverage in year one?  

- It ignores roster composition, so a place like OSU with way more top end WR's than they can even put on the field have a high score, meanwhile they would probably be a better team if they go back in time and trade a 5 star WR for a 4 star OT or OG.

- On the plus side, it does look like 247 is reasonably ranking transfers from the portal, which I think is the biggest wrench in the Starz Gazing recruiting philosophy.  Getting a top end transfer that is a plug and play starter is arguably better than a 5 star recruit that needs development at the same position, outside of maybe running back who have historically shown the abilility to be contributors from day one.  You skip multiple years of "will this guy develop, will this guy stay healty, will he become a leader?" and can go straight to "yes, yes and yes" when portal shopping, even if it is just for one year. 

This impact is magnified many times over on teams that are national championship contenders that have one or two potential roster holes and can address them immediately with starter level players.  Imagine what Michigan looks like in 2016 and 2017 had Harbaugh been able to hit the portal for OL, QB, WR (particularly in 2017 when almost everyone was a FR).  OL rebuilds used to be multi year projects.  Not having a good QB (oh lord, 2017) can kill an otherwise good team.  It's just a whole new game with the portal.

yostlovesme

December 7th, 2023 at 11:32 AM ^

Agree immensely on your last point.  The top end and middle have come closer together due to the portal.  A lot of guys (4-5 star) who would wait behind the starter are now leaving to start somewhere else bringing the middle teams up towards the top and the elite coming down towards the middle.  I think it's a great time for college when more than 5 teams can win every year. 

Blue@LSU

December 7th, 2023 at 3:30 PM ^

Those are all great points.

I wonder if there could be some sort of weighting for class/year/games played. A 5* freshman that hasn't played shouldn't be weighed as heavily for the composite as a 4* or 5* that is regularly on the field.

Roster construction is also important. If Arch Manning is #3 on the QB depth chart, his recruit rating isn't really all that relevant. Again, some sort of weighting system might help here.

LeCheezus

December 7th, 2023 at 4:45 PM ^

If that could be done, I think it would be more apparent that Michigan's recruiting is pretty good and they are a team with a lot of talent on the field - they just don't have additional stockpiles of talent sitting on the bench.

To simplify what I'm trying to get at in my last couple paragraphs, this all goes back to some form of VAR - Value Above Replacement.  A 5 star freshman OT almost certainly has a low VAR - he would probably be outplayed by most 5th year 3/4 star OT's and almost all of them with significant starting experience.

If you look at Michigan's team this year, many of the portal in players have significant VAR, if the "replacement" means "what was on the roster before the player transferred in."  Of course this is hard when it comes to OL, but my best look at it:

James Turner - Rock solid kicker vs basically true freshman Samaha

AJ Barner - Top 5 blocking TE and good receiving TE vs more snaps for Bredesen and snaps for maybe Hibner?

Ernest Hausman - Solid rotation piece vs probably playing unproven player in Hood while Rolder was injured

Josiah Stewart - Added another half starter vs. probably the snaps he took being spread out between Moore, McGregor and Harrell.  Would have been far more valuable had someone gone out with injury.

Josh Wallace - Solid rotation piece that at least held up for 10 games until M felt confident enough to swap to the McBurrows Nickel/Sainristil CB vs. either playing that combo before it was ready or playing a lot of DJ Waller maybe?

LaDarius Henderson - All B1G vs hard to say, maybe Barnhart would have been LT and Jones RT?  Seems like he has more value now that Hinton/Zinter went out.

Nugent - Difficult to say as we haven't seen much from Crippen, but staff seemed to think he was an upgrade.

Hinton - Maybe more valuable for next year, best guess as staff's preferred fill-in while Henderson got his feet wet.