WTKA Roundtable 10/24/2019: Stop Trying to Cheer Me Up
Things discussed:
- The weird road game when there's lots of mistakes, and this is still that game despite this being the best game they played all year
- Harbaugh killed three drives in Penn State territory or near enough by not going for it on 4th and short
- The mugging: can't argue the refs were the difference in this game.
- Shea had a good day. Peoples-Jones's drop: two guys open crossing each other in the middle of the field, Patterson doesn't see it, then he rolls out and finds DPJ and the safety rakes it out—that's on Shea. Brian thinks Shea's performance was okay, not great.
- Yippee they ran bubble screens and it worked because they've been ignoring it.
- Regular screens: why hasn't one worked all year? It wasn't a pick if Charbonnet doesn't trip but it wasn't going to work.
- Sloppy play—they still can't handle tempo (which is bad this week).
- Sam: RPO illegal man downfield: correct call on Ruiz but PSU has a guy 8 yards downfield who breaks up Hawkins's interception attempt wasn't one. The push-off is 7 points or 4 if PSU gets back in range. The Collins thing! The mugging on 4th down! Need to have officials grading so it's left to people like Craig Ross to grade them.
- Notre Dame: Brian says go ask Seth. Ed says they've got those DEs. Ian Book's a good QB. They've been trying to find a running game.
- Michigan as they were in the 2nd half last week can beat them, but this is a solid opponent.
- Back to Shea: if he has this game in context of a decent season we're down on his PSU game.
- Brian: Stop trying to cheer me up and make me optimistic about stuff. It's not going to happen. It's not. It's a one-game season and we're going to get hammered in that game.
- Caller: on the ledge, because it's the same old problems every season. Brian: we were hoping Harbaugh would come in and be a top five coach, and we're not there—we're on James Franklin level.
- Isaiah Todd: The way Michigan stays as good as they were under Beilein is they recruit better.
[Player after THE JUMP]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream on Podbean.
Segment two is here. Section three is here.
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It's like the Clay Davis: I'll take any m'f'er's yards if they're giving them to me.
October 25th, 2019 at 11:57 AM ^
IMO, it's a combination of his optimistic outlook re Patterson and Gattis as well as pessimistic outlook re Ohio State. No one thought Fields would be better than Patterson at Mgo and certainly not Brian. Further, Brian considered Ryan Day hire as smacking of "desperation." It seems obvious that the former is way wrong. Time will tell with respect to the latter, but it's certainly looking like Day knows what he's doing (while also inheriting a ferrari). So whatever expectations he had for The Game are now radically, I mean radically revised since August. And that has to be more than just mildly disappointing. Especially in the context of the past 15 outings.
October 25th, 2019 at 12:19 PM ^
Tecumseh, this take is essentially perfect. Well done. +100.
October 25th, 2019 at 1:38 PM ^
I think you're right, but seeing as you've diagnosed it already, it should be pretty easy to self-reflect that out. This site is supposed to be about analysis over hawt takes. Which means we clearly need to ramp back our previous optimism, but overcorrecting into doom and gloom is just that, overcorrecting.
Personally I think the issue is also that Harbaugh doesn't seem to have a trajectory. He pretty much came here and hit "average Harbaugh" 2/3 of the way through season 1 and things haven't gotten much better or much worse since then. So it's easy to feel like we're stuck in that perpetual Carr / Ferentz zone where things aren't nearly bad enough to consider blowing it up, but you're also unlikely to ever get over the hump without a ton of good breaks.
RR had a much worse record, but record wise year one was the worst and the trajectory was positive (especially on offense). Plus Denard was a hell of a lot of fun. Frankly there were RR losses that were more fun to watch than the median Hoke sludgefart win.
Hoke had a wild first season and then things steadily got worse. But at least we had villains (Hoke's general derpiness, Al Borges, and obviously Dave Brandon) and heroes (Robinson, Gardner, Gallon's rocket boots...) to build narratives around. And at least a program that's obviously failing lets you fire up the coaching change takes.
This year's team doesn't even have that. Who is the villain? Nobody is that bad, Gattis is clearly flailing a bit but he's a first year OC. Who is the hero? Nobody on the team is a stand out combination of personality and talent the way a Denard or a Peppers or a Hurst or even a Hammering Panda was.
But all that adds up to ennui. The angry Eeyore thing is a step beyond.
October 25th, 2019 at 9:56 AM ^
Well that wasn't depressing to listen to at all
October 25th, 2019 at 10:30 AM ^
Holy shit that was tedious. Get a grip dude
October 25th, 2019 at 10:40 AM ^
Brian has not yet embraced the suck.
October 25th, 2019 at 10:46 AM ^
Glad Brian is Not on the M team.
Or any team
October 25th, 2019 at 11:35 AM ^
First caller and Brian were doing a Key and Peele Obama sketch.
Holy shit, I just heard Jake's call. He sounded like he was going to cry. Brian, I think you made Jake cry! I've never heard him so beaten down.
October 25th, 2019 at 11:44 AM ^
SERIOUSLY!? Now that is too much. I love Jake.
October 25th, 2019 at 11:46 AM ^
So many good things in the comments here. Superior job, y'all.
i don't mind Brian's attitude as much, both because I love the content on the site and also because I'm essentially right there with him. I wrote a lot about this in my post about expectations, so TL;DR version. The primary reason that the angst is so much higher is that we don't beat our rivals enough, we don't beat good teams on the road, and even against bad teams, we struggle on the road.
Also, it doesn't feel like -- on offense, anyway -- that we have great players right now. Whether that's recruiting, coaching, or scheme, there's no Henne / Brady, no Hart, no Carter, no dominant OL. In watching the games, I feel myself just hoping the offense runs a coherent play without screwing up.
But mostly it's the rivals thing and the road thing.
October 25th, 2019 at 12:02 PM ^
I get feeling that Brian has no tolerance for Ed Fang. Can’t understand why.
October 25th, 2019 at 1:21 PM ^
It's been that way for a long time. Brian doesn't respect Ed.
October 25th, 2019 at 2:56 PM ^
He's never particularly got along with him (I remember one roundtable where he just went after him for something related to game film that I'm sure was completely irrelevant a week later). But at the same time, I've seen an edge to a lot of commentary from Brian toward everyone recently.
October 25th, 2019 at 3:01 PM ^
I just feel bad for Ed whom I like and I think has good insights. Just seems that Ed senses this and goes out of his way to be deferential towards him.
October 25th, 2019 at 7:07 PM ^
That whole thing blows me away because Ed always seemed like a numbers are reality guy; and that this would appeal to Brian.
ed should tell Brian to prove it every now and then. He is smart and up to it and the point counterpoint would likely yield good stuff.
October 25th, 2019 at 12:43 PM ^
BPOPNE is reasonable. I'm not there but it's not irrational to be there. It's a defense mechanism as far as I understand.
Frames is not on Harbaugh's level. No question I'd rather have Harbaugh than him, and really any other current B1G coach
October 25th, 2019 at 1:47 PM ^
Defense mechanisms should help. What's the use of having negative expectations if you're going to be in the black pit anyway when they're realized. Or maybe it would be better to ditch the BPONE thing, because it's childish and entitled, and try to enjoy the game and the season.
October 25th, 2019 at 1:19 PM ^
I used to love listening to the Michigan Insider on WTKA (mostly podcasts not live as I live in TX, and TMI is on during my morning meetings) but I have recently stop listening and only listen to the MGoBlog Roundtable segments. Being originally from Flint, and having Sam be from Flint and lead the show, was what started me listening to begin with. I know that he has to toe the line because of his relationship with the athletic department, however his inability to be unbiased when evaluating M is a struggle to listen to. That is especially frustrating to listen to because he goes out of his way to say that while he has a relationship with the athletic program, he offers unbiased criticism when warranted.
However, when Brian correctly diagnosed that the DPJ drop over the middle was not on DPJ because the db punched it out, Sam goes out of his way to say I don't put that on Shea, I put that on the receiver as a drop. Oh boy, anyone that is unbiased with eyes can see that DPJ had to leap and extend his reach to catch the pass that was thrown high no less! Once he catches it and begins to secure the ball, the DB punched it out.
First, Brian was right, Shea missed him running wide open right in front of his face initially and forced himself into a scramble. Second, even once he found DPJ, the pass was high! If he throws it on a rope and/or leads him to the right a little, DPJ can catch it on the run and turn it up.
I really wish Sam would STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR SHEA!!!!, and assigning blame on anyone but Shea to try an explain why he's still the starting QB at Michigan! While I'm not calling for Shea to be replaced, it's hard to listen to Sam week after week tell his audience that oh, the receiver ran the wrong route, or the receiver has to create separation, etc. etc. etc. Often times we see receivers open with a few yards separation, or even worse, no one within 5-7 yards of them!
It is for that reason I no longer listen to TMI and instead listen to ITH with Spath. I don't always agree with their analysis either, however, it's unbiased and I'm not forced to listen to hosts that try to positive spin every poor effort all day every day by trying to stay lock-in-step with the messaging coming out of Schembechler Hall.
Sorry for the rant, but in the middle of listening to the podcast that comment about putting the blame on the receiver set me off.
Carry on!
October 25th, 2019 at 1:30 PM ^
Not sure I understand how Sam saying it's DPJ's fault and not Shea's fault is because of his relationship with the athletic department or program. That would imply the program wants Sam to dump on DPJ. I think it's Sam's honest opinion. Whether he's right or wrong, you can choose a side, but I don't think he's being told to say that. Or if he is, then he's probably hearing it from someone inside the program as a coach's honest evaluation.
October 25th, 2019 at 2:33 PM ^
I'm not saying that the program is telling Sam to say that it is DPJ's fault. I'm saying that rather than potentially creating waves or backlash from the program by criticizing Shea (even when it's deserved) he tip toes around the subject and assigns the blame elsewhere. The narrative coming out of the program is that Shea has been playing very well. So rather than say: Shea didn't see an open DPJ, and then the throw was late and high giving the DB an opportunity to make a play. He said I don't put that on Shea, I put that on Donovan (key word, emphasis mine) "if I have to assign blame".
I'm just saying call it straight man. The facts are: The throw was late and the throw was high.
I don't disagree that Shea had his best game this year, however, ignoring the facts to support the narrative from the program is biased. So he should just admit to being biased rather than try to convince otherwise.
October 25th, 2019 at 3:30 PM ^
Is DPJ an NFL quality wide receiver or not? I'm not asking 1st round, I'm talking, will he get drafted at all?
Because if you think he's an NFL wide receiver, that incompletion is on him. It might not be classified as a "drop", but he needs to make that catch 100% of the time. Yes, the DB punched it out; that's what they're coached to do, it's not like it was some fluke. He could have held on by having stronger hands. Or, much easier, he could have held on by immediately bringing the ball from over head to tight against his chest, and then from there moving it to wherever he thought most safe for running; instead, he caught the ball over his head, then kept the ball extended away from his body all the way down to almost waist level, making it literally trivial for any defender behind him to strip the ball. If the ball is extended from your body, the first and only way you move that ball is tight into your body, period-- the only exception would be if you're extending it beyond the goal line or 1st down marker in the appropriate game situation.
October 25th, 2019 at 1:59 PM ^
This is what gets me. Why are you so invested in "STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR SHEA!!!!"
Why is it so important to you and others that he be held accountable, like he's a some criminal or corrupt politician? So many fans, like Brian, act as if it's personal: Shea owes them more! No, he doesn't. He absolutely doesn't. He owes it to his team and I suppose, to a much lesser extent, the fan base to try hard to do his best, which he most certainly did Saturday. He, and the rest of the team balled all game, and almost accomplished one of, if not the, greatest comebacks in Michigan football history. You're not owed one iota more than that.
October 25th, 2019 at 2:44 PM ^
Well one thing you are right about is that I'm owned nothing! I 100% agree with you there.
However, its not important to me that he be held accountable. That was never my point. He is supposed to be an objective journalist, so I'm holding him to the standard of his profession. I could care less if he said nothing about Shea at all. In my original post I made clear that I'm not calling for Shea's replacement, nor did I say that he had a poor performance. I criticized commentary offered by an objective journalist.
I offered my reasons why I no longer listen to TMI. You took issue with what I said because you perceived it as a shot at Shea, when nowhere in my original post did I criticize Shea. I didn't say he had a poor performance, I didn't say that he is a bad quarterback or should be replaced. I made a statement that I wish Sam would stop making excuses for Shea when he is offering analysis. Which is the whole point of the show.
Go back and re-read the original post and don't be so quick to take a statement out and comment on it without reading the entire post. And if you did and it was a misunderstanding of my message, fair enough, however if you don't see that the criticism is aimed at Sam, then you're just looking to hard to disagree and I can't help you there.
Also you're delusional if you believed the team balled all game. Yes, they played hard, yes they played well in the 2nd half and almost came back against a good team. But lets not kid ourselves. They didn't ball all game. If you think so, then you sir are also not objective and I see no point in continuing this conversation beyond this post.
October 25th, 2019 at 2:15 PM ^
I don't think these are reasons to stop listening to The Michigan Insider. Bringing in AL FREAKIN' BORGES as a superstar analyst whos opinion Sam references almost every segment about Michigan Football? THAT is a reason to stop listening to TMI.
October 25th, 2019 at 3:02 PM ^
True, that is as good of a reason as any!
October 25th, 2019 at 2:21 PM ^
Your take is completely irrational. Let’s say DPJ holds the ball a half second longer - then it’s a fumble.
Never in history has a QB been to blame for a WR fumble, but you are more than willing to in this case.
October 25th, 2019 at 2:53 PM ^
Irrational? Since we have shifted to my analysis of the actual play, lets address that.
For it to be considered a fumble, DPJ would have had to:
1. Secure the catch (which he didn't)
2. Make a football move after coming down with the ball
3. Then have it punched out.
If all those things happen, then yes, it is on DPJ because he has established possession and becomes a ball carrier.
however, the debated on the show was about what caused the "drop". In this case, it was because the DB punched the ball out. The DB had the opportunity to punch the ball out because the throw was late and high which allowed the DB to close down the initial separation that was created to create the throwing window. Those are facts. Nothing irrational about that.
October 25th, 2019 at 2:28 PM ^
If you think it’s a one game season, then of course you’ll be depressed. OSU is near its historic peak and we are not, and even if that weren’t true that’s putting your emotional health up for a coinflip.
October 25th, 2019 at 2:52 PM ^
I think the presence of Craig Ross would have made this much more tolerable.
October 25th, 2019 at 3:41 PM ^
Dont turn on the game tomorrow Brian...we will fill you in when we are ready to.
Cry baby bullshit
October 25th, 2019 at 7:26 PM ^
McCaffery plays multiple series if weather is as bad as forecast. Michigan does not get trashed unless ACC refs are assigned or maybe we should hope for ACC refs?? Here's to a new beginning of Michigan football.
October 25th, 2019 at 8:56 PM ^
The program and the media sold us all a bill of goods in the off season and we know they have the players to execute the speed in space they sold us. We all bought in. They fooled Brian who fancies himself to be above that propaganda and rightly so. Now he is sitting on the set of the show with Webb refusing to an extent to acknowledge what has become obvious to Brian. I can see how that could be somewhat maddening. Like how in the world does everyone nit see this type of paranoia. Its like Webb is fucking with him kinda with the sunshine blowing optimism. Actually driving Brian crazy.
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