When does “Private Investigators hack Michigan computers, No violations noted” become a story?
Now that the only clear violation is the potential “master of disguise“ appearance at Central Michigan, when does the hacking of Michigan’s computers by private investigators, become a real story?
breaching, confidential computer systems seems like a much bigger, NCAA violation than legally stealing signs or showing up on somebody’s side line to scout. Where is Pete Thamel on this scoop?
November 3rd, 2023 at 1:11 PM ^
Not a lawyer, but either the data is Stalions’ property, and I assume he could ask for an investigation, or it’s Michigan’s property, and then the more stringent laws that apply to University-owned data would apply. Stalions may have broken rules of his employer, but in gathering the data he has done nothing illegal from what has been reported, and he should be allowed to pursue his own legal options, which may include pressing charges if the PI firm accessed his data criminally.
If the PI firm wants to argue that the data isn’t Michigan’s and therefore it broke no laws, then it would necessarily argue that Stalions’ conduct was outside the scope of his duties and unsanctioned activity. But they shouldn’t be allowed to have it both ways.
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:17 AM ^
I responded to you in the other thread, so I won't belabor the point here. This seems extremely unlikely.
November 3rd, 2023 at 3:59 AM ^
Yep, I hear you. At first, I thought it might be likely. But after thinking about it, I figured any firm that is not totally amateur would be careful about that.
It was interesting to me that Hole thought it was true.
But even if unlikely, it's not absolutely zero chance. And if the PI firm *did* do something illegal to get the info, man, that would be amusing as hell, and I'd love to see that unfold.
November 3rd, 2023 at 7:28 AM ^
My thought is that it seems true because of the lie in the WaPo article that says the investigative firm obtained this information from drives accessed by multiple Michigan coaches. That sure made it sound like they had access to U of M servers. But it sounds like the real truth is that it was a shared drive Stalions set up.
November 3rd, 2023 at 7:41 AM ^
I also think a possibility we should consider is that Will Hobson got that part of the story, um, how do I put this...completely fucking wrong.
He clearly just printed whatever the source asked him to verbatim (not literally but basically).
Possible that the PI never actually physically had access to the drive themselves, but just was shown what was on it by someone with access.
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:19 AM ^
Obviously I don't know, but I am like 99% sure that part of the story is just wrong. First of all, if they knew "other coaches had access", the reporters or someone would say who those coaches were, and Michigan would suspend those coaches. I mean we've been getting daily leaks, you'd think the bombshell of "Access logs show Defensive Coordinator using the videos" would be out by now.
I don't think the PI ever saw the drive. He interviewed someone who told him "yeah they have this share drive they use"
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:14 AM ^
in general terms, it would be highly unlikely for a professional PI firm to do something highly imoral if not illegal..... if there was a PI firm in columbus ohio, and the investigator was an ohio state alum, or life-long ohio state fan....it becomes much less unlikely. i believe there is a fair contingent of that fanbase that would be inclined to believe the ends justify the means when it comes to Michigan.
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:47 AM ^
What if the investigator was the head coach's brother? Would that count?
For the record, I agree with the folks saying this was a google drive / dropbox and "coaches had access" was a careful way of not saying that coaches accessed. I don't think any crimes were committed here?
But I also think "private investigative firm" is carrying a lot of weight. People read that and imagine a professional PI firm with lots of employees and years of accumulated knowledge and procedures. What if the "firm" is one person, with no employees and no paying clients? Doesn't that change the realm of what's possible/plausible?
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:51 AM ^
yeah, that..... There is an attorney just down the street from me who has a PI working out of her office. Its her husband and most of his PI work revolves around tailing the spouse of her client that's going through a divorce.
November 3rd, 2023 at 11:23 AM ^
Not even Ryan Day is stupid enough to hire his own brother's firm to do this work.
November 3rd, 2023 at 12:01 PM ^
He didn't hire anyone. There's no paper trail, no money. Not even a firm, really, just an LLC filing. Chris quit his day job and he's working two commission sales gigs.
What makes it seem implausible to you is precisely what makes it plausible to me.
November 3rd, 2023 at 12:58 PM ^
Just to be clear, they didn't say "coaches had access" -- they said "maintained and accessed by multiple Michigan coaches" -- the article said they "accessed" it, not that they "had access" -- so it's not that they tried to mislead while telling the truth, they just lied.
November 3rd, 2023 at 3:39 PM ^
This is the whole shared Google Drive debate man. It’s been hashed out six days from Sunday.
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:18 AM ^
We have to stop with this, whatsboutism...but the answer is, as soon as Michigan wants it to be a story.
If that's the defense and Michigan has proof, this is going to go nuclear. But right now it's even more speculative than the stuff coming in the other direction.
There is nothing I would love more than for OSU to get caught hacking our computers and stealing our info...but that's nothing other than wishful thinking right now.
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:23 AM ^
Even if this were true, it wouldn't matter in the way that some people desperately want it to matter. The NCAA would not exclude evidence due to its provenance. If the files are legitimate, the NCAA will use them; full stop.
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:28 AM ^
Then they would be in possession of stolen material which is illegal.
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:34 AM ^
No, they wouldn't, because they would ask for access to the computer in question and Michigan would give it to them. Michigan is not run by message board members; they are voluntary members of the NCAA and have shown a very clear desire to abide by its jurisdiction. The idea that they would show up and say "we'd like to see what was on Connor Station's Google Drive," and they'd say no, is absolutely preposterous.
We've had this conversation before. Neither the law nor the world is going to change to fit your desires.
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:42 AM ^
I’m talking about the third party firm, not the NCAA. How did that firm acquire the information and more importantly who are they and who hired them?
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:53 AM ^
What difference would it make? In the extremely unlikely event that this information was obtained illicitly, you could prosecute the person who stole it, and you could prosecute the person who received it if, and only if, they knew, believed, or should have known that the information was stolen. For example, if you buy a car stereo for $7.50 out of the back of a van, and it doesn't even come in a box, you're not going to be able to get out of it by saying that you didn't know it was stolen. But for files, if your source said he bought them from Stalions's associate, and you're being charged a fair price, that doesn't seem so implausible as to rise to the level of "should have known" they were stolen.
You're not going to be able to prosecute the person who paid the PI firm, as they never had the material in the first place.
We may never know the name of the firm, and we may never know for sure who paid for it (but circumstantial evidence seems to point in just one direction).
November 3rd, 2023 at 7:36 AM ^
You are almost certainly wrong here.
Would Michigan give the NCAA access to Michigan’s computers? Absolutely yes.
Does this stuff originate from Michigan computers? Almost certainly not.
To believe otherwise, you have to believe that Stalions would send Michigans IT department requests for authentications for random people every week and it would be granted without questions. If he was sharing his own password you then have to believe Michigan doesn’t use two factor authentication or any other number of methods of security everyone uses.
The question then becomes what happens if this stuff was downloaded or sold from an account a Michigan does not control.
You mention torts. As this will likely blow up Stalions dream for his life path, I would say he’s got a hell of a lawsuit against whoever did this and if the case would be heard in Michigan he’s going to find sympathetic jurors too.
November 3rd, 2023 at 11:29 AM ^
One of the requirements for employment in the athletic department is compliance with NCAA rules. Stalions would be instructed to allow the investigators access, and while the NCAA does not have subpoena power to compel him to agree, he would immediately be fired if he did not.
Unless the leaker happens to be loaded, I don't see Stalions getting anywhere by suing him. He doesn't have a breach of contract case against the PI firm because you can't be breach a ocntract unless you're a party to that contract. His only hope would be a defamation case, and he only has a defamation case if anything that was reported was untrue.
November 3rd, 2023 at 3:41 PM ^
Only douchebags say “full stop” when discussing things with people.
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:25 AM ^
Michigan's systems were never hacked. The firm paid for the info. No investigator is risking career suicide and a felony to dig up dirt on a college football team.
November 3rd, 2023 at 2:36 AM ^
Occam's razor has been in very short supply recently.
November 3rd, 2023 at 7:09 AM ^
No kidding. A "hack" is one of the last things on my mind here.
November 3rd, 2023 at 12:43 PM ^
Except the version where you may be a closet Buckeye. :)
November 3rd, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^
PI's break the law ALL THE TIME.
I'm not saying that happened here, but anyone who thinks that PI's are some paragons of virtue has no idea what they're talking about.
November 3rd, 2023 at 3:51 AM ^
No sooner than the last time we discussed it, I'm sure
November 3rd, 2023 at 6:02 AM ^
Is there any credible evidence this happened? Not being contrite, just asking. This is a social media hit job thus far that Michigan can’t respond to. I witnessed a family destroyed over a Facebook post that gained traction and were proved to never be true in the end. No one remembers anything outside of guilt in the court of public opinion. Thats where we’re at. The only thing that’s gonna stop all the rumors is lawsuits.
November 3rd, 2023 at 3:51 PM ^
Agreed. Michigan may need to go the Dominion route with ESPN and Yahoo.
November 3rd, 2023 at 6:04 AM ^
Because that didn’t happen. Stalions used a Dropbox / Google Drive account.
November 3rd, 2023 at 7:10 AM ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm barely keeping up with the news, but this has long seemed like the obvious answer.
November 3rd, 2023 at 6:04 AM ^
The media is loving this story. They’re probably bored reporting the same old thing i.e. contact disputes, trade demands, locker room divas, etc. They don’t often get to report on such a big scandal. So if there was something out there about computer hacking to add to this already crazy story, the media would salivate over it. It would be everywhere.
November 3rd, 2023 at 7:11 AM ^
The World Series is over - the NFL is “half-way” through the season without playoff excitement - the NHL / NBA seasons have just started.
What’s really going to draw clicks? Well, that’s what they’re writing about - facts don’t matter, clicks do.
November 3rd, 2023 at 6:49 AM ^
IF there was unauthorized access and / or a security breach - my assumption is it would be raised by Michigan at the appropriate time. And, if another institution sponsored the firm responsible for the unauthorized access, it would be quite telling.
November 3rd, 2023 at 7:12 AM ^
That is the one clear violation… but what isn’t clear as if Connor was trying to help Central Michigan beat MSU or was he scouting MSU for done road. I am pretty convinced that was Connor.
November 3rd, 2023 at 7:21 AM ^
Dang, I had to scroll through the last 6 posts without seeing a J. Redux reply. What a disappointment.
November 3rd, 2023 at 8:50 AM ^
On more time...
Could this have been an M internal investigation that was leaked? That would explain the access to the M computer systems, etc. Hear me out for a minute.
1. Someone at M had a concern that Stalions had left the reservation (i.e. a wack job) and started wondering what the heck he was doing and how he was doing it. They dug into it a bit and became concerned in a major way. They presented their concerns to higher ups.
2. Based on the internal presentation of those concerns, M hired an outside firm to conduct an internal investigation. That firm was provided access to the M computer system and employees.
3. Someone leaked the results of that investigation.
I just have a feeling that there is a whole other side to this matter that no one but the powers that be at M knows and they are holding onto their info until presented with an actual notice of investigation by either the NCAA of the B1G. There could be fear of litigation by Stalions related to his employment status.
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:37 AM ^
Your theory appears to be highly implausible based on what we know to date. If the NCAA investigation was the result of Michigan self-reporting, then we wouldn't have the story that an outside firm approached the NCAA with evidence that kicked off the investigation. If the case started with Michigan self-reporting, then they could announce that fact. There would be no need for an NCAA investigation.
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:47 AM ^
Also, hiring an outside firm to investigate Stalions is a really weird way for UM to deal with a concern about Stalions.
Assistant Athletic Director: "Yo Connor, are you breaking NCAA rules? Let me see what's on your computer."
Done.
November 3rd, 2023 at 8:52 AM ^
Theres a lot of jive turkeys out there.
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:38 AM ^
If Michigan has evidence of a felony they can't share it.
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:51 AM ^
Why wouldn't they be able to share it? The NCAA can't prevent them from reporting illegal activities. (Not that I think someone illegally obtained information)
November 3rd, 2023 at 9:52 AM ^
I'm pretty sure they'd be completely free to share any knowledge of a felony with law enforcement.
November 3rd, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
If the information was reported to law enforcement (which the NCAA can't prevent) that report is a public record.
Like others, I doubt that this is actually a legal issue. But if it were, anybody with more intelligence than Conor Stalions could figure out how to publicize that without violating an enforceable provision of NCAA rules.
November 3rd, 2023 at 10:09 AM ^
We have no idea if a private investigator was even involved. People here are just running with that with no evidence. I mean, the FBI has Weiss's computers, that's just as likely the start of this as some PI firm no one can name.
November 3rd, 2023 at 11:02 AM ^
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/25/michigan-computers-sign-stealing-evidence/
The sign-stealing investigation threatening to disrupt Michigan’s football season began after an outside investigative firm approached the NCAA with documents and videos the firm said it had obtained from computer drives maintained and accessed by multiple Michigan coaches, according to two people familiar with the matter, evidence that suggests the scandal’s impact could broaden beyond the suspension of one low-level assistant.
Those people spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about an ongoing NCAA investigation. They did not disclose who hired the outside firm that approached the NCAA.
Is your contention that Will Hobson is a liar? That Will Hobson was duped? Or that the article can be read to mean that an "outside investigation FIRM" (weird word choice for a government agency) is the FBI, and the paragraphs could be rewritten as such:
The sign-stealing investigation threatening to disrupt Michigan’s football season began after the FBI approached the NCAA (despite the NCAA having nothing to do with legal matters) with documents and videos the FBI said it had obtained from computer drives maintained and accessed by multiple Michigan coaches, according to two people familiar with the matter, evidence that suggests the scandal’s impact could broaden beyond the suspension of one low-level assistant.
Those people spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about an ongoing NCAA investigation (but had no issue with talking about an ongoing FBI investigation, that part wasn't the reason for anonymity). They did not disclose that the U.S. taxpayers hired the "outside firm" that approached the NCAA.
November 3rd, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^
I’m just waiting on the national story that explains who hired said PI’s and exposes those behind the shenanigans.
November 3rd, 2023 at 10:52 AM ^
If Stalions had a shared apple drive and there was practice videos on it and the 3rd party viewed them or shared them wouldn't that be a crime? They may not have broken any laws obtaining that info but if they viewed something belonging to the University they didn't have access to that still be criminal in nature.