Combating the Rub Route...?
Rewatching the game, something Dr. Brown needs to solve ASAP are the rub routes. Every single one of Proche's big plays came off of a rub route. Now... the question of where the "legal" rub vs a downfield block is always up for debate but never gets called on us because we are sooooo aggressive with our DBs. How do you stay in man while combating that? Especially when they stacked their WR's and the first one just run blocked our first DB into the second DB, to free up the other WR.
Also...
- Need to plan to drop a LB or DE into the slot WR's slant area EVERY 3rd down. That play kills us
- SMU must have been hell-bent on stopping our run game. Kept 8-10 in the box every play with EVERYONES first step being towards to the running back, daring us to beat them deep. DPJ and Gentry gladly obliged. This is what was missing from our game last year was the ability to take the top off the defense when they sold out to stop the run.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:00 PM ^
If so then this is a question straight to Don Brown. He seems to be open in discussing such topics. See what he says...
September 16th, 2018 at 10:03 PM ^
Zone
I wish it got mixed in more on 3rd downs. Or something. I know we think the world of our corners but just one man-to-man mismatch (LB, safety, or even when a corner inevitably gets beat once in a while) and the pressure doesn't get there fast enough (it hasn't been all that often) and it's a big pick up instead of a punt. Or ya know, the QB bugs out and runs on our ass because their backs are to the ball.
September 17th, 2018 at 12:05 AM ^
Agree. Must be flexible. That first game, zone would've saved us from getting blasted by QB runs and possibly confused the QB more.
September 17th, 2018 at 8:14 AM ^
I said it elsewhere on Saturday / Sunday, but SMU clearly watched the Notre Dame tape because on these plays, the speed and aggression and staunch commitment to man coverage was actually being turned right back at us. I think at least a portion of the answer is introducing some zone, at least on the outside to attempt to take away these routes, or make them very short trips for WRs at worst
September 16th, 2018 at 10:04 PM ^
Just need to mix in some zone coverages and disguise them. We've been doing that already but are still getting some big plays on us. That said, from memory the first one long one was a straight up bust, the other 4th and goal TD was good coverage but perfect throw, and the 3rd and long scramble was really the only one that probably was on the scheme.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:45 PM ^
The run was to the boundary side (I think?) and there appeared to be no edge contain. It was either a misalignment or whoever was supposed to have edge contain busted.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:05 PM ^
Mix up the coverages
September 16th, 2018 at 10:09 PM ^
Solve these problems with aggression
September 16th, 2018 at 10:20 PM ^
As others have said, zone helps combat the rub route. It's frustrating that almost every 3rd down / 4th down pickup from SMU was either a rub route, slant from the slot, or a DPI. All of those could be mitigated from a zone. Now, zone opens up the playbook in other regards, but in 3rd and short, with an aggressive M2M scheme, the rub route is an excellent play to go with. Bit of variety in those scenarios would go a long way.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:28 PM ^
SMU was 5/14 on third down. Do we have to change our entire defensive strategy because a shitty team converted 35% of their third downs?
September 16th, 2018 at 10:38 PM ^
That statistic is a bit deceptive though, as there were something like three times where they gained enough yardage on 3rd down to go for it on 4th (and converted).
September 16th, 2018 at 11:49 PM ^
I don’t know that the world has ended because of that stat either. I say this as a stat guy.
2016 S&P+ #2 overall defense
2017 S&P+ #10 overall defense
Is there room for improvement? Sure. I’m sure the coaches are watching the tape and making adjustments. FWIW the guy sitting next to me yesterday kept bitching that “SLANTS ARE KILLING US ALL DAY” so I’m a little bit hypersensitive to this narrative.
When it comes to people saying, just run zone to fix this, I would say zone leaves areas and pockets for the offense to pick apart. I don’t think running zone fixes anything. I think the key is getting the right personnel in place. As the season grinds on, the coaches will continue to make those adjustments.
September 17th, 2018 at 2:33 AM ^
1- depends on the qb whether they could take advantage of zone on 3rd down. Nobody is saying run zone all game, but you can't run man all game either. Teams have already figured out how to convert those against us.
2- no, the coaches won't make adjustments. They've already proven this.
September 17th, 2018 at 5:59 AM ^
Yes, we were very good defensively the last two years. But this year we've seen some warning signs in the ND/SMU games. I certainly don't think we should throw press man out with the bathwater, but mixing up coverages a bit more might not be a bad idea.
September 17th, 2018 at 12:33 AM ^
If SMU can convert 35% of their 3rd downs, what percentage is Wisconsin/PSU/OSU going to convert taking advantage of the same thing?
September 17th, 2018 at 9:24 AM ^
I think the material point is that if a crappy team can convert 35% of 3rd downs plus some 4th downs, what will an actually good team do to us? A secondary point, in my opinion, is that SMU probably should have thrown more slants/rubs even then they did, as it didn't look (to the eye, we'll wait to make a final call till UFR) like Michigan really had these stopped.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:26 PM ^
Zone is the easiest way.
The more difficult answer that would allow Brown to play his best style is just amazing communication between the db's to switch players at the mesh point. That is what was supposed to happen on the busted coverage td but they both went with one guy which is the danger. Its also part of why we are recruiting very similar db's across the board, allows them to cover when they switch without it resulting in size or speed mismatches. Its like going with a positionless all switch defense in basketball that's made golden state's defense so elite.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:27 PM ^
I was going to post (you beat me to it) that there needs to be a switch on rub routes, no different than a switch occurs on a screen in basketball. If not, you need to go either under or over the rub, which is very difficult to do and still maintain tight coverage.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:31 PM ^
Tough to run vs heavy boxes with downhill LBs and aggressive safeties at 8-10 yards - but harbaugh will try.
Balance is vital especially when you don't trust your OL to pass block and don't want QB carted off so I see the need to run the ball but still. Comes a point when you gotta trust your guys to take advantage of what the D giving you. Even with a stale, slow as molasses O, you gotta make them pay if run action triggers 8-9 guys crashing the line.
Dynamic game plans 1-2 times per year (osu and maybe another) make for frustrating viewing. I realize harbaugh will likely never abandon his foundational principles but I still wish he had greater belief in taking advantage of space and using tempo now and then, all while constantly playing the #s game.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:24 PM ^
Harbaugh did this at Stanford as well. He would run into overloaded boxes early even though it would only result in 1 to 3 yard gains. As the game wore on though, the opposing defense would break and the 1 to 3 yard gains would be 4 to 10 yard gains and more.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:53 PM ^
That may have worked well in the Pac 12 because they have smaller Dlines.
September 17th, 2018 at 1:14 AM ^
Yea, all of those tiny Samoans.
Where do you get the notionthe lines out West are smaller?!
September 17th, 2018 at 8:31 AM ^
FFS, that " stale, slow as molasses" offense put 45 points on the board by using a WR and a TE to go over the top of the 9-man box. This is with a generic 'show nothing' game plan against a referee-aided shit team.
Shit posters posting shit...
September 17th, 2018 at 9:07 AM ^
Technically, the offense scored 38 points, which is less than what SMU's previous opponent put on them, but I hear you, Comrade.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:33 PM ^
I'm glad the crack staff here is on it. Let's make sure to get the results to the team soon, preferably before the next game.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:00 PM ^
Cool comment guy blow.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:33 PM ^
And why don't we use picks on offense? Every team seems to use it a lot because refs rarely call a penalty on the offense. Seems like we confine ourselves to so many basic plays because we have the We're Michigan and We Will Run Over You mentality. It's not 1975 anymore.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:38 PM ^
Great--I open the Combating the Rub Route...? thread--a great topic! But what pops up on the sidebar? That ass cheek revealing soft cotton boxers ad. WTF? Ass cheek underwear and...rub routes? No. Just stop...
September 17th, 2018 at 6:13 AM ^
Dude... What's in your browser history?
*cuz I get the same ad. ?
September 16th, 2018 at 10:43 PM ^
from my view in the south end zone, we always seem to cover the outside shoulder of the slots and wide receivers and almost invite the slant routes. I would think it would be harder to hit the out routes and we should be favoring the inside shoulder of the receivers and dare them to run that slant. hopefully, we adjust to the things that are hurting us, because Im afraid the more capable teams on our schedule will be ready to feast on our problem areas. Specifically, slant and rub routes and 3rd down defense. The plays SMU beat us on yesterday were very basic play designs and should have been more easily defensed. Additionally, when a team has only one capable player who can hurt you (#3 Proche) and they go to him on every single key play, a great defense will take that player away in the latter part of the game. We never did that on Saturday. It was the same guy all day long. Our defense, while good has not been elite yet, and if this season it to be memorable, we need this defense to be elite!
September 16th, 2018 at 10:55 PM ^
Noticed this too. Also the DL needs to get their hands up on 3rd down and try and bat some of these passes down, or at least make the throwing lane more congested.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:58 PM ^
When you’re in single high man coverage, you typically can’t give up the outside. You lose leverage and give up a big play. When you funnel the play to the inside, you’re allowing your help to come in and tackle.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:11 PM ^
This.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:24 PM ^
understand the idea of funneling the wide receivers to the inside where your friends are, but in our scheme, the friends who are typically inside of the slants are usually shot like missiles headed for the QB or in man coverage chasing an eligible receiver. On the majority of those slant routes there was no inside help. If there was, I'd like to know where it was, because inside help would have blown those plays up. I would argue that the outside throw or fade over the top is a tougher throw to complete against our pass rush. I've also noticed our DB's are struggling to find the ball on the fades and longer throws resulting in more penalties and completions. Hopefully, the DB's tighten things up and start making some significant plays in the secondary. With decent coverage this team should be a sack machine for the Big Ten schedule.
September 16th, 2018 at 10:53 PM ^
You can't take everything away from the offense. If they mix in more zone, they give up more completions into the soft spots in the zones; depending upon the zone design, usually the flats and the spot about 10-15 yards downfield behind the first set of defenders and in front of the next.
Perfect offense beats perfect defense every time. The goal of the defense is to decide what you want to take away and how best to do it, depending upon the strengths of the oppositions.
Personally, I think it would really help if the referees would call the pick, though. While I wasn't convinced that the busted coverage was a pick, there were at least two others that were pretty darn clear.
September 17th, 2018 at 5:25 AM ^
Notre Dame got away with the pick play as well, clear as day on their first 3rd and 10 conversion in the first quarter. It was a big play/non-call. If the refs called it, the rest of the game would have turned out differently, IMO. Teams are getting away with it, unfortunately.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:01 PM ^
You lost me at drop a DE into the slot...
September 16th, 2018 at 11:12 PM ^
Play one side man and one side zone. If they load up one side, play zone on that heavy side but line up in man, and on the opposite side (if they line up anyone over there) run straight man.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:19 PM ^
Not to put too fine a point on it, but do you really think that you're going to come up with a solution on here that's not been considered by the coaching staff? Like do you think Don Brown needs your help?
I get that it can be fun to talk about Xs and Os and shoot the shit about it..but I'd frame it that way then.
I guess our staff should take it as a compliment that apparently it's a shock to some fans that the defense isn't immortal, and guys paid to come up with offensive solutions can occasionally find something that works to some degree.
September 17th, 2018 at 1:26 AM ^
I feel confident that not one person here thinks they know something the coaches don't. The framing of the topic was just fine, for a football message board...we're amateur-shop talking, not plotting to overthrow our D coordinator/staff.
September 17th, 2018 at 8:39 AM ^
Viva Le Revolution!!!
Wait. I like Don Brown - I'm not good with this revolution you guys are starting...
September 17th, 2018 at 12:09 PM ^
French? Spanish? Franish?
September 16th, 2018 at 11:31 PM ^
Did anyone notice Josh Ross run out to cover Proche off of motion in the 2nd half? The safety was going to run out to cover, but Ross ended up one in man to man coverage on him. Surprisingly, SMU threw a fade to Proche.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:41 PM ^
Gimmick. SMU was not as bad of a team as had been assumed. UNT is 3-0 after thrashing Arkansas at Arkansas. That loss does not look as bad in hindsight. I watched a lot of Cal football when Sonny Dykes was the coach. HIs passing game was always on.
September 17th, 2018 at 12:50 AM ^
Conversely, we lost to an average ND team. ND squeaks by Ball State, a team that lost to Indiana by 28.
September 17th, 2018 at 1:16 AM ^
3-0 with a win vs a ranked opponent. Thar puts them squarely number 2 of teams north of the Mason Dixon line.
September 17th, 2018 at 2:43 PM ^
Also true. ND did not really put Vandy away.
September 16th, 2018 at 11:57 PM ^
Red Route 1
September 17th, 2018 at 12:00 AM ^
Pattern matching is one way to combat against rub routes and that should play into Don Brown's scheme considering they love to run man coverage. It requires a lot of communications and trust in DBs that they can pull this off quickly on the field.
September 17th, 2018 at 1:36 AM ^
I want to think there's some element of believing we don't need to stray from man defense to beat teams like SMU and Western Mich, and when we get to MSU and PSU and OSU with QBs who we need to keep an eye on, we'll add some elements in. I know that we haven't necessarily shown that in the past. Keeping faith in Harbaugh and Don Brown. This is the year.