Wojo article on M culture change since 2020, from selfish to team
Wojo discusses how Harbaugh and M have turned the program around since the dark days of 2020. I found one aspect interesting, a couple of quotes from Keegan and Barnhart about how we had lots of "selfish" players in 2020, quotes below:
“We had a lot of selfish players,” offensive lineman Trevor Keegan said. “We didn’t really have a good culture.”
“There were guys that just wanted to be here for themselves, and have the name Michigan behind them and go to the league,” offensive lineman Karsen Barnhart said. “Now, everyone wants to be here, and everyone wants to play for each other and win.”
While 2020 was dark indeed, for many reasons, I don't recall much discussion about team culture being a problem then, or selfish players being obvious. Did I miss that? And speculating, who do we think Barnhart and Keegan are referring to?
December 29th, 2022 at 9:07 AM ^
Its pretty clear who those guys are when they left the team after the 2020 season.
December 29th, 2022 at 9:10 AM ^
I still don’t know
December 29th, 2022 at 9:29 AM ^
Here is a list of departures after the 2020 season. I’m not going to call anyone out since (breaking news) I don’t actually know for sure, but you can come up with some guesses based on public comments from some of those who left.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:16 AM ^
I’ll call someone out. Don Brown. That guy was a pouting baby the entire season. Was never as happy seeing a coach leave as that guy.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:17 AM ^
Well we have discussed Carpenter's reasons to leave before, he certainly does not seem like a suspect. I won't speculate on anyone else. It is two years in the past and I am just glad that there was in fact a turn around of culture.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:18 AM ^
While I think the list of departures you linked may be a good starting point (and keep in mind that not necessarily all who left early were "locker room cancers"), shouldn't we also examine the list of departing seniors who, though eligible for an additional "covid year", left the program?
I also think the seeds of discontent, relative laziness, "me-first" attitude, etc, had gradually seeped in over the few seasons leading up to the total team breakdown in 2020. It didn't happen overnight; it had already apparently manifested itself thru those who prioritized things such as the golf course over team activities.
December 29th, 2022 at 9:33 AM ^
Probably the starters who elected to sit out the year or decide to rehab injuries on their own accord during that time, instead of playing. We all know who they are.
December 29th, 2022 at 9:47 AM ^
I don’t think that’s fair given how chaotic and uncertain 2020 was. Ambry in particular had preexisting health problems.
I look more to the guys who took shots at Michigan on the way out and poisoned the well with certain recruits
December 29th, 2022 at 10:27 AM ^
Based on comments at the time and since for sure Joe Milton, Giles Jackson, and Zach Charbonnet. Hell, Jackson was flipping everybody off in 2021 when playing for Washington heading into the tunnel after the game. Charbonnets comments were this past October.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:00 AM ^
Yeah, Giles Jackson, Joe Milton and Frankie Collins (basketball) were all poor fits at Michigan. But it's difficult for me to wrap my head around how a small handful of players out of 100+ players could submarine the entire team's efforts. Michigan was bad in 2020 mainly because of inconsistent QB play and poor defense.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:16 AM ^
Yeah I think there's a bit of hindsight bias that goes into articles like this.
And to be fair, articles like this pop up every-damn-year for every-damn-team that has had a turnaround. They talk about 'culture change' and how players were being selfish in the past. It's a rinse, repeat, change the team name kind of article you could find dozens of examples for.
They're easy to write, and we eat them up, so sports writers keep doing them.
December 29th, 2022 at 2:51 PM ^
Fully agree. This is almost as inevitable as the "we're not just happy to be here" articles. The old "if we had a terrible season, it's because we didn't try hard enough" canard. Not saying there's not something to it, but ... it's also true that it's easy to point fingers after a season like that. "WE would never have a season like that -- because we're more committed to the team than they were."
One of things I respect about great athletes is they always believe winning is exclusively a matter of desire and effort. The other team/player isn't simply better: We lost because we didn't play as well as we could/should have."
And I'm serious. I respect it. And it may be necessary to be a great athlete/team. But in reality, sometimes you play really hard, and either the other team plays better, or the breaks go their way. I think things started spiraling in 2020, and it all snowballed.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:19 AM ^
as the old say goes, it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the rest.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:59 AM ^
I think we may be looking at it the wrong way. Maybe it's not that a few bad apples poisoned an otherwise healthy locker room, but that no one stepped up as a leader when things got bad, and so the locker room atmosphere fell apart.
December 29th, 2022 at 2:09 PM ^
This right here. This had been a complaint of mine for a very long time until last season when it was clear Aidan Hutchinson, Blake Corum, and Cade McNamara (this season notwithstanding) took on player leadership roles and pretty much nailed it.
December 29th, 2022 at 3:33 PM ^
it doesn't take much for a few guys that feel like that they aren't getting a fair shake playing wise to become so angry about it that they keep talking about it to whoever will listen that their piss poor attitude starts to "infect" others on the team. I personally think that Black was one of those guys that developed these types of issues, and he was close with DPJ. one of the star players starts buying into the BS and then it starts to run through the team to varying degrees... then it goes from a small group of players to a large group and then to a larger group. They might not all show it on the surface or say anything publicly but they end up showing it with how they play...
December 29th, 2022 at 9:31 AM ^
If I had to make a guess based on who sat out, left for the draft, and social media activity that I've seen I'd guess: Dylan McCaffrey, Cam McGrone, and maybe Nico Collins?
Guys like Kwity, Ambry Thomas, Bench Mason, and Chris Evans have always struck me as program guys
December 29th, 2022 at 9:42 AM ^
Nico came back but then the season was canceled. I can't blame a guy for not wanting to hurt his draft stock with an on again, off again season.
My guess is more the Joe Milton, Giles Jackson, Zack Charbonet group. From 2019, which probably still wasn't great for culture, you had guys like DPJ who bashed the program and Patterson who spent most his time golfing.
December 29th, 2022 at 9:53 AM ^
Jackson and Milton seem super obvious since they both ran their mouths publicly after they left Michigan
December 29th, 2022 at 10:23 AM ^
This is why I can’t stand statements like this that leave people open to accusations.
Nico returned until the season was canceled. Joe Milton has shown nothing but class. There was a single, unsubstantiated, rumor that he made a comment about putting points up against Michigan after he transferred.
His former Michigan teammates have nothing but love for him. He lost his job here, stuck it out, graduated, and waited until February to transfer. This is in addition to playing through a hand issue that requires surgery. No excuses.
He then went on to Tennessee, lost his job, and became THE locker room leader and best friends with the qb that took his starting job.
meanwhile, you have a qb that stopped talking to the his backup because he became a threat, dropped out of his program BEFORE his injury, removed himself from team activities after his injury, and threw various individuals and elements of the program under the bus on his way out.
But, you know, Joe is convenient and low hanging fruit while cade, the legend who should never have to pay for his own beer in A2, is Tom Brady 2.0
December 29th, 2022 at 12:31 PM ^
Not that I appreciate Cade's exit strategy but there is a marked difference between someone who struggled during one season of play before transferring, and the guy who replaced him and went on to win the big ten championship and beat ohio state.
That being said, I actually agree with the sentiment here, in that Cade showed his ass on the way out and Joe has been pretty classy throughout his college career. There was a comment he made when he got to Tennessee that might have been a slight shade-throw, saying that Tennessee coaching "doesn't build robots" but then he goes on to talk about being instinctive and in the moment. Someone posted on the board when it happened and it was debatable whether it was even anything against Michigan in the first place.
I'll be rooting for Joe to start next year at Tennessee.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:40 AM ^
Please. Share, source, link the public comments from Joe Milton. I remember a Joe’s farewell tweet thanking Michigan. Again, I don’t remember one from cade…
December 29th, 2022 at 10:22 AM ^
Considering Keegan is quoted, I would assume Jalen Mayfield may be one of the guys he was talking about. There was some negativity floating around when he declared. Some of that may stem from Warriner, but who knows???
When Vansumeren left there was some chatter on twitter from current players at the time...nothing positive.
Dont get me wrong some guys left for the NFL because they were straight up Dudes (dawgs now?), but the unexpected transfers kind of speak for themselves.
December 29th, 2022 at 3:37 PM ^
in regards to Vansumeren and why he left... per one one my suite holders who's nephew was a walkon safety with all of these guys...
Vansumeren got pissed because he was only going to be on the field at LB in 2020 for the running downs and then he was coming off when it was an obvious passing play because he couldn't cover anyone... which we found was true this year at MSU when he had to play more and have to play in coverage and got burned a lot...
December 29th, 2022 at 10:37 AM ^
Update on DPJ. He was very upset with Harbaugh when he left and largely blamed his drop to the 6th round on his lack of targets in the passing game. I know this because I see and talk to his mom almost every Browns home game (we are both in the Draft Room). I dont know if that makes him one of the selfish ones but he definitely wasnt happy with the program when he left.
Time, as they say, heals most wounds and DPJ and Denzel Ward had a bet on the Michigan/OSU game this which was heavily covered locally. And mom this year wore all her Michigan gear to the Draft Room (as did I I might add) the Sunday after this year's ass-whooping.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:46 AM ^
I would say DPJ had a bit of a right to be upset, we should have been lighting teams up in 2019 with Collins and DPJ.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:59 AM ^
I like the WRs on this year's team....but man this offense would be lethal with Nico and DPJ out there
December 29th, 2022 at 12:01 PM ^
You can say that again!
December 29th, 2022 at 12:55 PM ^
Yup as much as I am happy with the current coaching staff, that offense in 2019 was incredibly frustrating and I can completely understand why some of our WR core would be upset. It didn't helped that Patterson seemed to regress from 2018 either.
December 29th, 2022 at 5:08 PM ^
The problem was Patterson, not Harbaugh (though you could blame Gattis too).
December 29th, 2022 at 10:46 AM ^
I would say DPJ had a bit of a right to be upset, we should have been lighting teams up in 2019 with Collins and DPJ.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:56 AM ^
I can't remember if DPJ seemed under-targeted; Nico definitely was.
It's such a fine balance, i.e. how do you attract and retain NFL-caliber WRs if you're only throwing to them a couple times a game. Definitely something that the staff will have to find a way to manage going forward if they want to keep a run heavy approach much of the season.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:57 AM ^
I could see DPJ being upset a bit. I had high hopes for DPJ, TB, and NC. I think they were failed by QB production. Without looking it up I have to think Bell's career numbers beat all 3 combined? Maybe?
December 29th, 2022 at 11:24 AM ^
I remember hearing that Black was a bad influence on DPJ, and the two of them became malcontents.
Also, I think they were also failed by coaching. People forget, but they didn't have a position coach their freshman year. Pep Hamilton was the passing game coordinator, but he coached QBs, not WRs, and there was no WR coach. Their only coaching came from a grad assistant. The next year they had McElwain, and Gattis in 2019, but I'm convinced that the lack of proper coaching their first year seriously set them back, especially DPJ who came in a raw athlete and never really became a crisp route runner during his time here.
December 29th, 2022 at 1:56 PM ^
DPJ played two seasons with Patterson, whose single season yardage totals currently rank 2nd and 9th all-time in Michigan football history. He wasn’t failed by a lack of QB production.
December 29th, 2022 at 2:20 PM ^
Shea overthrew a ton and g passed and missed even more reads in 2019. We had to throw the ball more because we played from behind. Penn st, osu, Wisconsin off the top of my head
December 29th, 2022 at 2:31 PM ^
Patterson had 381 attempts in 2019 and 325 in 2018. For comparison:
2021 McNamara: 327
2016 Speight: 331
2015 Rudock: 389
No dramatic difference. There’s no scapegoat for DPJ’s underwhelming Michigan career.
December 29th, 2022 at 2:56 PM ^
You'd have to show me how many of those attempts were to DPJ and Collins downfield. My memory is the great majority of passes in most games were to tight ends or screens. Maybe I'm wrong -- it would hardly be the millionth time -- but memory is that Collins in particular was seriously under-utilized.
And yeah, I blame the coaches, not Patterson. The Army game. The Iowa game. Probably 5 other games. Just ... bewilderingly conservative play-calling, given the talent on the field.
December 29th, 2022 at 12:26 PM ^
I was also upset. We had DPJ and Nico Collins on the same team, with a 5* QB, and somehow couldn’t get the ball to WR’s downfield.
As you say however, that’s water under the bridge. Things are so, so good now!
December 29th, 2022 at 3:23 PM ^
i said this a couple of weeks ago in another thread, but whatever issues that DPJ and his mom had with the program seems to be resolved as DPJ's mom was at the Penn St game and was in the Harbaugh family suite for a period of time.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:44 AM ^
Dylan McCafferty makes a ton more sense than Joe Milton. But doesn’t fit some of you alls narrative
December 29th, 2022 at 11:04 AM ^
Your "guess" is irresponsible hoohoo. Shit like this sometimes makes we wish we had a more active moderator. We've had knuckleheads taking potshots at Milton for a while.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:49 AM ^
How would the “on again, off again” nature of the season hurt anyone’s draft stock?
December 29th, 2022 at 9:13 AM ^
“The name on the front of the jersey is a hell of a lot more important than the one on the back! Get that through your head.” - Herb Brooks
December 29th, 2022 at 12:41 PM ^
Don't disagree but that aphorism doesn't work as well for football where jerseys usually don't have the team name on the front :)
December 29th, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
“Who do you play for?”
”I play for…the University…of Michigan…”
“That’s all, gentlemen”
December 29th, 2022 at 9:30 AM ^
Haven't read the article but want to reiterate that I'm absolutely positive of the role Biff Poggi has had in this area since coming back.
I have major concerns about his leaving and sincerely hope what he brought to the staff and players can be replaced in a hire or naturally carry-on through them from year to year.
In short, it cannot be allowed to back to what it was. I'm curious to see if the article gets to the worst of it because it was really bad for a bit there. Jim practically begging his players to celebrate during that weird 2020 season was both telling and not totally a product of the weird 2020 season. Things were bad to the core at that point.
December 29th, 2022 at 9:43 AM ^
Poggi leaving is a big fear of mine too. If you read the Athletic article it was clear how valuable he was to the team, and was portrayed as the only person who could really both push back on Harbaugh and convey his message back to the players in ways they related to.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:06 AM ^
I am terrified of losing Biff and I hope they put a massive emphasis on replacing him with someone who can do the same thing he has mastered both with Harbaugh and culturally in general. I am worried that he is an incredibly unique person that may be nearly impossible to replicate