OT (NIL related) Josh Pate On Texas A&M's Locker Room Problems
Josh Pate talking about A&M, but more specifically the kids that got suspended and the role that NIL may have played in this and how NIL is affecting the college landscape. Basically, if you get a bunch of kids that you might not normally get, (because of NIL) or kids that don't really fit into the culture of the program or the culture of the school and it's traditions, they might not be willing to stay.
October 27th, 2022 at 11:23 AM ^
I guess this is one of the merits to the "transformational, not transactional" argument. However, ideally you want both and it's still clear we're losing recruiting battles we would've won in the pre-NIL landscape
October 27th, 2022 at 11:35 AM ^
“it's still clear we're losing recruiting battles we would've won in the pre-NIL landscape”
I can only think of that MI QB that committed to Oregon. Who else?
October 27th, 2022 at 12:10 PM ^
We probably wouldn’t have gotten Dante Moore even with NIL.
That said, some recruits we’ve lost out on where NIL could’ve helped seal the deal include: Jalen Brown, Raylen Wilson, Charles Jagusah, Sam Pendleton, Devan Houston, Makari Vickers, Jaxon Howard, My’Keil Gardner, Jeremiyah Love, Jacobe Johnson, and Paul Mubenga. It remains to be seen if NIL prevents us from reeling in Jyaire Hill, Aaron Gates, Chris Peal, Kayden McDonald, and DJ Chester, among others.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:46 PM ^
I don't follow Michigan HS sports as much as I used to because I don't pay for newspaper services ie, Freeport and DetNews, but I was told Moore wasn't having that great of a season. Can someone confirm or dispute that notion?
October 27th, 2022 at 1:12 PM ^
MaxPreps lists 79/117 for 926 yds, 10 tds, 3 ints across 5 games. Not awful but kind of pedestrian for a recruit of his caliber.
October 27th, 2022 at 3:45 PM ^
Great list. FYI, Chris Peal committed to Georgia.
October 27th, 2022 at 11:42 AM ^
I was convinced UM's decision was the wrong one and would cost them tremendously. It's more nuanced than I originally thought and I've come to accept there is merit in the way UM and Harbaugh have approached NIL/Pay-for-play. But you're right that UM lost (and will continue to lose) some recruits that may have been "gettable."
I'm now more amenable to the idea that in the grand scheme those losses are worth it to keep continuity and the current culture. I hope UM continues to evolve as the landscape continues to reveal the pitfalls of jumping into pay-for-play with both feet.
UM will never have full advantage on the recruiting trail for a number of reasons, but I think the gamble that some have taken is not paying off and has obviously been unsustainable at the least (MSU) and destructive at worst (A&M).
October 27th, 2022 at 12:10 PM ^
Michigan’s strategy makes sense, but we need to let in undergrad transfers.
We can lose recruiting battles to A&M and Oregon, but if we can get those same players back 1-3 years later via the portal, it should be all good.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:24 PM ^
I'm in the same spot. We may lose some of the elite skill players like Dante Moore, but the Harbaugh approach (each player gets $50k/year or some other significant high base, irrespective of position, plus significant individual opportunities) should work really well to attract depth, and create a better team culture. It may or may not work, but it's not a crazy strategy.
October 27th, 2022 at 2:32 PM ^
This is the second time I have seen someone suggest that every player on Michigan's roster has a guaranteed $50,000 per year NIL deal. I have been mentally workshopping the benefits of such an approach in my spare moments of contemplation. Now I am wondering if I came up with the idea myself or somehow missed (or forgot) that a Michigan NIL collective had announced it as their approach.
October 27th, 2022 at 2:36 PM ^
Same question. Is this give/take the current approach on the team? Hadn't heard that.
October 28th, 2022 at 8:20 AM ^
Yeah, I think that if NIL is your number one concern in your recruitment, over coaching and competing at a high level (looking at you, MSU), then Harbaugh is probably not the coach for you. Good players are always going to find NIL opportunities at a place like Michigan. But if you prioritize the money over improving your game, then aren't you less likely to approach your ceiling as a player? If you can get paid before you even produce anything on the field, why work your butt off?
I am not opposed to NIL, and I hope that all of our kids are highly rewarded for their hard work. I do, however, think that there is merit to the "transformational not transactional" approach, even if it takes some players off of the table.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:19 PM ^
I've internally debated about the merits of a hybrid approach that could merge "transformational, not transactional" with the reality that some recruits and players want more certainty.
Would an NIL model that focused on guaranteeing certain payments to all scholarship players be workable at Michigan? Imagine an NIL collective that announces that it will play all players $50,000 (or whatever) per year. On top of that guarantee, players would be free and encouraged to find (or be offered) additional postenrollment NIL deals. Making the collective payments uniform should minimize the backseat GM and locker room discontent that has afflicted Texas A&M. It could also help Michigan score avoid some self-inflicted losses on the recruiting trail.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:47 PM ^
Isn't that the approach UM is taking?
October 27th, 2022 at 2:16 PM ^
I have not heard anything about base NIL deals for all players. The constant refrain has been assurances that NIL deals will be available after recruits enroll, but without any discussion or promise of initial payment.
October 27th, 2022 at 1:19 PM ^
There's a balance that must be struck. We don't want to bury our heads in the sand and pretend like we don't need to play the NIL game because the Winged Helmet and the Block M should be enough to attract recruits. But we also don't want to reduce recruiting to a business decision where we just throw money at kids to get them to come here.
On a related note, maybe what should happen is that all NIL earnings are held in trust by an independent body and are only released when a player retires from collegiate athletics or exhausts his eligibility.
October 27th, 2022 at 4:10 PM ^
Your second paragraph's suggestion would put UM at the bottom of the NIL spectrum. Given how the coaches are compensated (immediately and often guaranteed) I'm not sure that continuing to restrict how players are compensated makes sense for recruiting.
October 27th, 2022 at 11:23 AM ^
Good content
October 27th, 2022 at 11:29 AM ^
When their extensive bagman experience is considered, most of the south should already know how to handle these situations. This isn't the first time they've had to deal with players at different "compensation" levels.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:02 PM ^
Yes, but it wasn't basically public information before. You might have an idea of what someone is getting paid, but it wasn't right there in front of you.
I'd also say some of the top guys are probably going to get way more under NIL (or "NIL" if you will) than you would when it was under the table. Guys like Bryce Young getting 7 figures before he played a snap for Bama comes to mind - think about how hard it would be to get a million dollars of cash or benefits (cars, house leases, jobs for family etc) to someone without any obvious paper trail. It's way easier now.
I had suspicions this was going to happen to A&M - it looks like they built their class by pulling up the 247 composite and picked targets from there based on how close the players were geographically without any other considerations. Oddly enough, probably what would happen if fan message boards and boosters were setting up the recruiting board, which is maybe part of what is going on here.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:10 PM ^
"I'd also say some of the top guys are probably going to get way more under NIL..."
It would be a huge surprise to me if there wasn't informal conversation between first year NIL players talking about the value of their NIL deals - and, several asking "Why is he getting more scratch than I am?"
People may disagree with how Michigan has approached NIL; however, it does seem like the locker room is solid and, it's "the team, the team, the team".
Much respect to the players on the squad and the staff.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:47 PM ^
But doesn't the fact that you can openly do it, without someone holding something over your head (eligibility) change the dynamic?
October 27th, 2022 at 11:31 AM ^
Paying unproven 18 year old kids a bunch of money up front to come and play at a school they care nothing about did not work?
Nobody saw this coming.
October 27th, 2022 at 2:03 PM ^
Making a bunch of 18 year olds rich and putting them in a consequence-free environment leads to questionable decisions?
Nobody saw that coming either.
October 27th, 2022 at 11:38 AM ^
What's the news here? That Texas A&M actually suspended a couple of guys?
October 27th, 2022 at 11:51 AM ^
I cannot find the link but it appears that they have suspended 4-5 players for the rest of the season, kicked several others off the team, and there are rumors of at least one other that is in wait-and-see mode re: entering the portal at seasons’ end. Many of the NIL 2022 group in those lists — notably not on the lists that I have seen….Walter Nolen.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:40 PM ^
Sorry, that was a reference to Texas A&M's very long history of cheating and questionable practices when it comes to player discipline. As long as I can remember (and this goes back to the 80's with Jackie Sherrill & RC Slocum) if the head coaches felt they needed a player on the field to win, somehow that player made it onto the field. And what game did a head coach ever think they didn't need every player to win?
October 27th, 2022 at 11:38 AM ^
Don't know who this guy is, but I think he hit the nail on the head. It's very funny watching A&M trying to buy their way into elite status and absolutely flopping on the way. This is A&M thinking they can just buy every 5* and when they get on campus, you can just plug n play like it's an NCAA football video game. Turns out recruiting a bunch of guys to College Station who are only there for the money don't make a cohesive team. Michigan with less 'talent' would beat the piss out of A&M
Another problem is Jimbo is an overrated HC and a bad offensive coach still riding Jameis' coattails. So you've got a bunch of guys vaguely committed to the team being run by an overrated coach. Very funny
October 27th, 2022 at 11:53 AM ^
This is how I see it too. I don't think NIL is bad, but TAMU is going about it the wrong way. How could it not lead to locker room problems if you are basically paying unproven guys just to show up while those that are already on the team are getting less? Michigan's way of 'earn it and it will come' seems much more sustainable and better for team cohesion. And its not like our guys aren't doing pretty well, we've got linemen driving Lamborghinis...
Jimbo is definitely overrated and, from what I hear from a walk on (could be sour grapes, but I don't think so), not well liked by the players. They put up with him because they hope he can get them to the NFL (and now $$$), but he's pretty much considered an asshole.
October 27th, 2022 at 11:41 AM ^
This has always been the risk with these approaches. Imho, portal teams and NIL teams are two sides of the same coin. It's no different than the Kentucky basketball approach. There are years it's going to work (last year MSU) and years it won't work (T A&M current).
October 27th, 2022 at 11:45 AM ^
"really fit into the culture of the program or the culture of the school and it's traditions". NIL makes this much more challenging. However, I do believe it's the approach Michigan is pursuing, and - it's not easy.
The team has been great to watch, and all credit is due to the players / student athletes and staff - for their efforts and quality of execution.
Go Blue!
October 27th, 2022 at 11:52 AM ^
Of course. Jealously, an implicit class system--some of us have been noting that this loomed for a while.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:02 PM ^
Apparently …. Staeee fans thinks they have a shot at flipping these 4/5* kids to EL. Mind you … these are kids that took the bank roll allegedly. Smoked pot pre-game allegedly. But are willing to leave the Deep South for the cold months in East Dumpfill for a below .500 team.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:23 PM ^
I think it's bs. It's all about winning with the best talent. If you accumulate a team full of guys with insane pedigree they expect to win. When they don't win they get unhappy and things turn sour.
Other programs are doing NIL well and have been throwing bags around for a long time and are doing fine because they are winning. Schools such as Oregon, Bama, Ohio State and Georgia just to name a few.
If A&M was 6-1 with conference championship hopes still on the line we wouldn't be hearing any of this. Alternatively if Ohio State (with a million 4 and 5 star players) was 3-4, their players would be revolting too. Just the name of the game at the top of the sport. NIL has nothing to do with it
October 27th, 2022 at 3:51 PM ^
Exactly. You are looking at one case study example of NIL. You can do the same thing and look at one place that doesn't value it like Iowa and say gee they should probably develop more collectives to not be 3-4.
October 28th, 2022 at 8:27 AM ^
But are they going to be 6-1 if all of their best players are playing for Team Bag rather than TAMU? Can you get cohesion out of a bunch of mercenaries? It remains to be seen. TAMU seems to be a chicken and the egg problem. Is the record causing a lack of cohesion, or is the lack of cohesion causing the record?
October 27th, 2022 at 12:45 PM ^
Distraction from the fact that Jimbo Fisher is an average football coach on most Saturdays.
October 27th, 2022 at 2:00 PM ^
Most? I guess that's a fair point, since the Aggies did defeat Bama last year.
October 27th, 2022 at 12:51 PM ^
No shit…think of the upper class man that haven’t received anything close to what these incoming freshmen receive, and trying to get them to buy in to the culture!? Good luck.
Add the booster who will likely put pressure on the coaching staff to play their player.
not a good recipe but they made their bed.
October 27th, 2022 at 1:44 PM ^
I wouldn’t want to go to school at a pseudo military academy unless someone paid me a shit-ton of money.
October 27th, 2022 at 1:56 PM ^
A&M was always a pay-for-play spot for a lot of those guys (as it is at a lot of schools) and so when bad times happen a bunch of them aren't going to be too attached to your school and be willing to leave. These kids want to win and when the coach is calling an offense that simply doesn't work they're not inclined to hang around.
October 27th, 2022 at 2:13 PM ^
Well, that's probably one of the reasons Harbaugh wants a transformational, not transactional relationship with NIL, and is probably happy he doesn't have to deal with this.
If all you're looking for is to get yours and cash in as much as possible, that's your right to do so at this point, but Harbaugh will likely tell you that Michigan isn't the place for you. That'll undoubtedly cost him some recruits that could get Michigan closer to OSU's talent level, but if the flip side to that is creating culture problems in the locker room with players who are only there for the money and the fancy cars, then maybe its worth it in the long run.
Who knows? OSU has a stupid NIL budget and last I checked they don't have culture issues so what do I know?
October 28th, 2022 at 8:32 AM ^
But if we beat OSU at home this year will there be some culture issues? Winning can pave over a lot of problems, but if they miss the playoffs again then questions will start to be asked. Culture is most important when there is adversity. Anybody can put on a smile when everything is going their way.
October 27th, 2022 at 3:03 PM ^
I called this last summer haha
October 27th, 2022 at 3:32 PM ^
How do these players have energy to fight? Shouldn't they be exhausted from two-a-days on a dusty field ending with a 45 minute Okie drill then wind sprints until everyone vomits followed by six hours of carrying refrigerators up six flights of stairs? I'd think they'd be too busy doing their nightly 2000 pushups or at least rubbing dirt on their knees.
October 27th, 2022 at 3:47 PM ^
For every Texas A&M, there is a Georgia or Ohio State who seems to have knocked NIL out of the park. I will repeat what I said in July. It isn't about avoiding NIL totally. It is about figuring out who has good character and then targeting them with NIL money.
October 27th, 2022 at 7:59 PM ^
Michigan has had some recruiting flaws, but Jimmy isn't a snake oil salesman and he's been invested in culture from the jump. I remember the concerns on the lines and it seems that they're mostly fixed and being addressed.