OT: Abusive Parents/Coaches and the Umpire Shortage in Little League
Article relates some high-level statistics on umpires leaving the youth sports business at least in part because of abusive behavior from parents/coaches.
Since 2017, the number of baseball and softball umpires in the Babe Ruth youth baseball and softball league has been on the decline — with 6,229 in 2017 falling to 4,995 in 2022, according to the National Umpire Association. Between 2018 and 2022, youth sports lost nearly 20,000 umpires at the high school level, according to the National Federation of State High School Associations.
Hard to say what proportion is due just to lack of civility at games, but let's agree bad behavior isn't helping any. Some leagues stop games, suspend parents, etc., but the old theme of adults ruining children's activities may have also dovetailed with the much-discussed lunacy all over the country that spiked during Covid (plane incidents, fast food restaurants, Target, government state houses).
“The kids are the victim of their parents’ actions. The kids don’t like it. They’re totally embarrassed,” said John Dugan, president of Ramsey Baseball and Softball Association in Ramsey, New Jersey.
Dugan says he’s never had a physical altercation between an umpire and a parent at one of his games — but situations have gotten heated. He’s had to step in between a parent and an umpire and has suspended parents up to several games to the entire season for bad behavior.
So, two questions:
1. What behavior from parents/coaches are you seeing these days at youth sports in your area and at least in your experience has it been trending downhill?
2. If you were an organizer/official of a youth sports league, what threshold for bad behavior do you set before suspensions of parents, coaches, or entire teams start getting doled out?
I coach my kids' teams but they're still pretty young. There are some teams/groups that take their stuff pretty seriously and think their kids are Olympians and that's a recipe for some weirdness.
Same. I coached 12-14 little league for a summer in college, and it was amazing how entitled the parents were. The kids were awesome, but the parents were insane.
Especially the parent who couldn't get their kid to any practices who would then show up and scream about their kid not being in the starting lineup on game days.
See i think that's part of the problem: starting lineups for kids. I coached all three of my kids, and they were 4-5 years apart so it was 15 years of flag football, and during the regular season, everybody played the same umber of plays and everyone got to touch the ball at least once. I would call timeouts at the end of not close games to make sure everyone got touches. Wins did not matter. Until the playoffs, and then it was on, gameplans were a ruthless exploitation of the otehr guys' weak link on defense with our best player. And so no one bitched about playing time, getting touches, any of that. ANd we won a couple titles in 15 years. When I had good players.
[not a reply to this comment dircetly, I can't reply to OPs for some reason]
I'll say this, my kid played travel and house league for a long time. I coached. It was great, but yes the parents always want more. You can't have 11 happy players/parents on a team b/c only 9 play at a time. I'm insulated from the worst of it b/c we live in the "north country" but I'll say this re: ref issues.
If my daughter wants to ref for some extra bucks, I'd be at every game making sure the crowd and coaches keeps their shit together re: chirping at the ump.
Ehhh just let her grow some thick skin and learn to stick up for herself and assert her authority if needed. Now YOU sound like the crazy parent, lol….
I officiated for 10 years fresh out of high school, varsity, jv, middle school, and youth. Developed a lot of character because of it and it taught me how to stay professional in the heat of any moment.
Ya WrestlingCoach - I wouldn't classify any parent going to protect their teenage daughter who is umpiring a game from over aggressive assholes as "the crazy parent". Give me a break.
Or maybe keep your opinions to yourself about how to raise someone else’s kids.
Maybe keep your opinions about my opinions to yourself then! /s
This here is a message board buddy, filled with opinions. Sorry you don't like mine man. Have a great Friday, nonetheless!
Ya'll so sensitive!
Went through the same thing in hockey, only I'd have to wager hockey parents are worse. Because of the extra cost of ice time and equipment, they're so invested they feel that they deserve a return on that investment. As a coach, it's a little easier to try and be more equitable with ice time since you're rolling lines and changing on the fly.
I'll say this though. A bit of a tangent, but I remember playing Little League, we had this one umpire who did our games and was really good. A bit of a character, he stood out from the rest because he was so passionate about his part-time job. Every call he made, ball, strike, whatever, he made with conviction and maybe even a little theatrics. Sometimes when calling a strike he'd follow with a repetitive staccato, "It caught the corner! It caught the corner!"
Just thought I would mention it because he made the games more fun. He cared so much about doing his job with excellence that it made our pretty inconsequential Little League game seem like the World Series. I'm sure some thought he was too much, a bit of a showman. I just think he was passionate and invested. I'll take that over indifferent and aloof any day.
In addition to the cost, hockey also involves checking, which is an acquired skill. There are going to be bad hits in bantam that are not malicious, simply because kids are trying to learn where to draw the line. There can also be a pretty wide talent range in mid-level travel, which further impacts the checking game.
I was at one of my daughter's games when a parent took umbrage at a borderline hit by one of our kids and threatened to kick the kid's ass when he gets to the parking lot. This is an adult threatening a 12-year-old with physical violence.
There is a major shortage of refs in hockey right now, and unhinged parents like that one are a big reason for it.
Your last sentence is where the problem arises from. Parents all think their kids are going to get DI full rides and most will never make a high school varsity team. So if something doesn’t go their kids way they lose it thinking you’re going to hurt their kids chances for a ship. It really is sad and pathetic how parents ruin sports. Parents are one reason why I stopped coaching. They can’t even listen to reality
Kids are just soft today
*entire article about adults*
*concludes it's the kids*
how would you like to be the next US president? you fit a certain theme we want to keep going
it was a joke calm down, also, this is what you just did ……
*post was a joke*
*drags politics, kicking and screaming, into it*
Ah, the DTS is strong with this one. Unnecessary inclusion, but what the heck.
Rubbed dirt on it and got back in the game.
The Great Santini. One of Robert Duvall best. He had many bests, one of my fav.
Book was great movie disappointed me.
I fervently hope to every divinity under the sun that I'm wrong, but it's only a matter of time until some Little League parent shoots a referee because of a borderline strike three call or something else. And that's assuming that hasn't already happened and no I don't care to Google that right now.
I could never condone this but after "Spartan Bob" I know what turns Mr. Hand into Mr. Fist.
I believe Aqib Talib's brother shot an opposing coach over a peewee football game score rather recently
not sure about baseball but i know it occurs in football and hoops. as it does overseas with prominent sports like soccer, baseball. people take sports seriously, without even considering gambling aspect.
re dearth of umps - curious if the same applies to football, bball since theyre more popular.
several friends of mine played college baseball and umpired thru high school and college though if i recall it was mostly youth or legion ball - not sure if that still occurs as much. high school umps are little different as most games occur after school during work day. nice side gig for teachers, retirees, etc looking to pick up extra cash or stay involved. apparently thats not the case anymore? plenty of asshole parents out there though so im sure that contributes to some umps hanging up spurs
Lets be honest. Its America. Itll happen soon enough in a parking lot after a game (I'm sure it's happened a few times already)
We've seen bad behavior with youth soccer. What we've seen more of, less noisy but equally disturbing, is parents living and dying with every play their kids make. Or counseling them from the sidelines. The joy of flying around and playing can get drained quick for kids.
Soccer parents are miserable. My son is 16 now and asked about being a ref. I was like "nope." The best part about the parents is almost universally the loudest ones having the weakest understanding of the rules.
You absolutely nailed it.." The loudest ones having the weakest understanding of the rules"
That is true of just about any sport, I have found. I helped out coaching little league baseball and softball for many years (in an assistant role basically), and even at practices, the number of parents willing to quote rules that were not rules or describe scenarios that were borderline bizarre as if they happened in every game were quite astounding.
I actually had to tell another parent to stop coaching my kid at our game a couple weekends ago. You want to look like an ass and yell directions at your own kid (which he does incessantly), go for it. I told him we pay the coach to do that, not him. These parents don't realize they are removing opportunities from their kids to learn from their mistakes. Really hoping he and his kid go to another team next year.
There's very little a kid is going to learn during live game action, especially being yelled out while trying to process what's going on.. It usually does more harm than good. I was a goal keeper growing up/ high school and the position my daughter plays. I've caught my self a time or two over stepping my boundaries and noticed In her tone that it was more harmful than good ( even tho it was useful information ) I save the correction for after the game when we can talk about it in detail. Ive also had a few situation where I've had to speak up with parents yelling at her,often times the wrong information. Teaching a young girl goal keeper to be aggressive is hard enough, parents discouraging it in live action is pathetic! especially when it was the right idea just not executed correctly.
This past weekend, I could of blew a fuse. We were shorthanded on refs ( this is u11 travel ) a parent from the other team stepped up and helped on the sideline ( did a fabulous job) . A parent from our team yelled several times and then felt the need to interrupt halftime to inform the girls that the volunteer ref has no authority to make calls.. What's wrong with people ???
It's actually kinda sad, ive coached on and off for years and i probably swallow 90% of the instructions i think of because I know yelling instructions usually dont help except in specific situations. And it's my freaking job to yell instruction. If im not the listed official coach of that game, I don't say a word to the players that isn't something generic like "great job".
Some of these parents literally have to yell 100% of every though that runs across their mind when watching their kids play.
Oh my God yes. My daughter is 8 and plays on the travel soccer team. The majority of parents are reasonable, but the few that aren't ruin it for everyone. I genuinely like going to the games and watching my daughter play, but my experience is soured by those few bad apples if I don't go out of my way to sit far away from everyone else. Yelling at their kids for missing plays, degrading their kids out loud, coaching from the sidelines, and criticizing strategy (again, they're 8, they're going to mess up)...you name it. It's absolutely infuriating and it's getting harder and harder to hold my tongue.
Fortunately, we will be coming up on our last season of travel next year with my son heading into his senior year this Fall. I learned a lot by getting my coaching license, helped me be a better fan for sure.
who is the sanctioning body that issues these licenses of which you speak?
US Soccer. Got my F and E license. Did all online. E I had to go to a weekend clinic and run sessions with other coaches I was going to continue up the ladder but decided I would prefer to watch my kids. Going to continue coaching after my son graduates.
Being a youth sports official has to suck, but I imagine baseball is the worst. Every ball/strike call can be contested and it’s relatively quiet so you hear all the complaining.
I agree with this. I think basketball can also kinda suck, because the parents are sometimes 5 feet away from the officials. People get really heated about football, but at least the officials are usually relatively far away from the stands.
My first job was as a youth umpired when I was 15 years old (doing tee ball, coach pitch, and some younger games) and some of the parents/coaches were dicks. Based on one coach who was terrible all the time, I still remember thinking in my head as the plate umpire, "I swear to God, I don't care where this next pitch is, I'm calling it a strike against his player." Sure enough, the pitch came in about neck-high, the batter didn't swing, and I called strike three.
I felt kind of bad for taking out my frustrations on a 12-year-old kid - I still remember his name - but as a 15-year-old, I didn't need a 40-year-old dad screaming and whining about every pitch call or semi-close call at first base or whatever.
I try to remember how it felt to be an umpire when I talk to football officials these days. It's rare that I fly off the handle, because I know they're generally trying to do their best.
I agree 100% unless it's John O-Neill. Thank Christ he retired.
As a soccer ref from the time I was 12 through an IM ref in college, I would put a vote in for soccer parents/players. It's not as quiet, but there seems to be a mob mentality amongst the parents and some more subjectivity to the calls that makes them prone to losing their minds (I mean, the Premier league can barely describe what constitutes a handball and yet all the mini-Messi parents are expecting a 14yo ref to call it every time the ball glances off the other team's shoulder. Which it does about 20x per game). I once reffed a team the week after their parents surrounded a ref in the parking lot by pulling a car behind his car and berating him through the windows. In my game, those coaches "only" lost their minds and pulled their whole team off the field and quit the game about midway through the second half, so I got off lucky! I mean, it wasn't that long ago that a men's league ref was killed in a game in Rochester. https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2014/07/31/testimony-in-death-of-michigan-referee-provides-disturbing-glimpse-into-incident/
We were having this exact discussion a few days ago. Little League baseball parents are the absolute worst I've had to deal with. Coached soccer, football, basketball, and all had some bad parents, but baseball was the worst.
Interesting profile picture, Stu. Is that a Christmas tree ornament, or maybe an onion wearing a blue sweater with a butt in front of it?
I had an experience when I was an umpire about 14 yrs old, and that was in the late 70's calling a game of 8-9 yr olds alone. It was a weird interference play, which I called a double play and the coach of the team whose baserunners got the two outs just exploded. He was swearing like a sailor for like 5 minutes. I ejected him but he still continued to heckle and coach from the stands. He acted like such an ass hat, all over one extra out in a stupid game with a bunch of 9 yr olds. And this was 45 yrs ago. SMH.
Here's a video of a guy who sucker punched an ump at a high school game, who was disabled: https://news.yahoo.com/disabled-veteran-umpire-punched-athletes-211619555.html
Just for kicks - you make the call. Not that his behavior is acceptable regardless if I am right or wrong. Again, I was 14 at the time and the baseball rule book was not memorized, but I just used common sense:
Runner on first, batter hits grounder to first baseman who is in the basepath of the runner on first. Runner on first (no lead offs) takes one step, makes no attempt to avoid the fielder and plows over the fielder before he fields the ball, which goes into RF, runners are circling the bases, much cheering, etc. He mistakenly thought only he was entitled to the basepath and it was open season to destroy the fielder. I obviously called the runner out who was on first for interfering with the fielder before he could field the ball. And I called out the batter because it could have been a double play, which although unlikely for 8-9 yr olds, the runner prevented the attempt. It did not seem right to give him first base, so I called it a double play.
I've researched it and I'm convinced I made the correct call. Too bad I didn't know I could have ejected the runner for it.
Offensive interference
...If interference is committed by a runner with the obvious intent of preventing a double play, the batter-runner will be called out in addition to the runner who committed the interference. If interference is committed by the batter-runner before he reaches first base with the possible intent of preventing a double play, the runner closest to scoring is called out in addition to the batter-runner. If interference is committed by a retired runner or by some other member of the offensive team, the runner who is most likely to have been put out will be called out.
Under Little League (LL), high school (NFHS) and college (NCAA) rules, if interference is committed by a runner with the effect of preventing a likely double play, regardless of his intent, the batter-runner will be called out in addition to the runner who committed the interference.
Also under LL and NFHS rules only, all runners are required to attempt to avoid collisions; if a runner fails to do so, he is guilty of malicious contact, which is one kind of offensive interference. Malicious contact carries the additional penalty of ejection from the game.
15 year umpire here just working high school and some college ball so I’m not going to pretend I’m Angel Hernandez or CB Bucknor (I know /s). The issue you’ll have with this play and call of a double play at that level is that you have to be certain when you explain the call that the runner was intentionally trying to prevent a double play which at the Little League level is a tough bar to clear. The most common application for this rule would be a malicious take out slide at 2nd base. You’re not necessarily wrong in how you’re thinking but my guess is the argument from the coach would be that his kid has no clue about the double play part. The likely call would be runner is out, batter takes 1st on an immediate dead ball and no other runners advance.
Not being Angel Hernandez is a GOOD thing.
/no s
I get what you're saying about the kid maybe not knowing about the double play. But at that age, usually one of your best players is at first bc you need someone who can catch pretty much everything. My 7 year old (mostly plays second base) has already made a few attempts at tagging a runner going from 1st to 2nd then trying to make the throw to first. So at 9 and likely being one of the better players on the team, I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he knew he could make a double play.
I dont think that the question in the call lies with the fielders ABILITY to complete a double play. it lies within the runner's INTENT. If the runner accidentally interfered with the fielder, the runner is out. If the runner is judged to have interfered with the INTENT of breaking up a double play, then we have two outs on the play.
Its hard to imagine a 9 year old runner having the presence of mind to try to break up two by interfering.
We had a similar situation in the fall. Our team, which is 9u and very good, was playing a team that was squaring up the ball on what seemed like every swing. There was an inning run rule so the score didn't get out of hand too early. Well, it's the 2nd or 3rd inning and we're down by 8 runs or so and they had a runner on 3rd, two outs. Something happened and the runner was heading home but the ball was by the backstop. The catcher didn't pay attention to where he was standing and he was right in front of the plate, no play imminent. The runner completely ran over the catcher who was in a vulnerable position so the ump called him out. The parents started going nuts talking about how it was a terrible call and he hadn't been making good calls all game. Then they said our guy shouldn't have been standing there implying he deserved it. This got our coaches and parents upset and then the yelling started at them from our side. I do get bothered by our parents because they argue with umps as well, definitely leading up a sense of entitlement from the players. When they hear that, the get the sense they were screwed out of a win, completely ignoring their own contributions to the loss. If my son complains about umping, he gets corrected right away that the ump isn't the reason you win or lose.
As a 30-year umpire, I will say your instincts were correct in your ruling. And if you believed the runner at first intentionally interfered with the first baseman making a play on the ball, and that is crucial, then you could rule both runners out. But the rule actually penalizes the offense even more significantly by calling out the runner closest to home out on that play as well. So, good for you.
There is no instance in which a runner ever has right of way of a fielder making an initial play on a batted ball. It is always interference on the offense, the ball is dead, and the runners who are not called out, must return to their origin base.
Now, when a infielder spectates on the base or in the baseline of any runner without any possibility of a play being made on that runner, and the runner collides with that defender, then we have obstruction, a delayed dead ball call. At the end of play, you direct the runner to the base you think they would have reached if the contact hadn't occurred. The runner is protected from being called out in that situation.