grounding, grounding, it's all grounding [Patrick Barron]

Mailbag: #AllGroundingOffense, Consolidation, 12 Man Audio Comment Count

Brian September 17th, 2019 at 12:57 PM

#AllGroundingOffense probably doesn't work as well as #AllPIOffense, but…

I have a question for the football brain trust at Mgoblog.
Should the quarterback always intentionally ground ball to avoid a sack?
It seems like a good idea to me. What is the downside?

Phillip

Uh. I mean… he's not wrong? Since the penalty is "lol no this is still a sack" without anything extra tagged on, grounding is a penalty that's not really a penalty.

The main thing keeping quarterbacks from attempting any desperate chuck to avoid a sack is the potential for a turnover. I'm pretty sure Patterson's first fumble against Army happened because Patterson was trying to get the ball out after he saw the guy coming, and later in that game the MTSU QB's attempt to ground the ball should have been a pick six punt directly at Lavert Hill.

FWIW, I think grounding should be harsher. If you're in someone's grasp and you aren't making a genuine attempt to complete a pass that should be grounding. That includes booting the ball six yards OOB, throwing the ball to a running back in pass protection, and throwing the ball aimlessly in the middle of the field with no one within five yards.

[After THE JUMP: MSU twelve-man-on-the-field radio call]

Age of consolidation.

Brian,

I'd love to read your take on whether college football is broken (or damaged) in a way that is historically anomalous.   Thinking to the very chalky results of last year, how the playoff participants have been such a small number of teams over five seasons, and how 2019 (so far) feels like we're all biding time until some mild variation of prior playoff brackets.

Thanks,

Mark

In some ways, yes. In other ways, no. There have always been teams that go on extended dominant runs, whether it was the Bobby Bowden Seminoles, the mid-90s Cornhuskers, or Oklahoma back in the 50s. The long-term dominance of Alabama isn't even the first time Alabama has done this.

What is starting to break the model is the recruiting dominance of an increasingly small number of schools. Economist Andy Schwarz recently followed up on a Deadspin article he wrote in 2014 about the increasing consolidation of top recruits. CFB continues to see its blue chips go to a smaller and smaller number of schools:

 tumblr_a29e62b3429bd8066af5b8d30969f0d4_af90085e_500

Why? There are probably a number of reasons but probably the foremost one is the combination of amateurism with the proliferation of a polished, smart Saban system in which players get paid with the approval of but without the direct involvement of the head brass. We have wiretap proof of Clemson adopting a similar model:

And Georgia started recruiting like Alabama as soon as they hired a Saban assistant who had access to gobs of money. Ohio State had one year of meaningful sanctions after the whole Tressel thing and then hired Urban Meyer—if anything that incident allowed them to skip some Tressel years a lot like the Dantonio fade MSU is experiencing now. So if you have a culture of DGAF, the resources to spend, and a pool of recruits who increasingly look on NCAA amateurism as a scam, you can overcome previous barriers like distance and the fact that Alabama already has six five stars at your position.

The difference here is the level of professionalization—for lack of a better word—that the under-the-table system has taken on. If you're dumb and stupid like Ole Miss it falls apart. Saban hasn't had a peep of trouble, and nor has Dabo, for whatever reason.

Liberalizing compensation regulations for athletes would help this a bit. Several schools who aren't going full-bore ignoring NCAA rules, whether that's because they have ethical objections or they are just too incompetent to make it work, would enter the playing field. Shoe money would also help even things out. 100k plus a good shot at starting might be a winning argument in a way that 0k plus that is not.

Even that would only open it up a bit. The sport is increasingly national, so little regional miracles like Nebraska are probably dead and gone forever. What might help more is a period of coaching churn we might be coming up on. Saban is 67; Ohio State just hired a guy with no head coaching experience. If we get lucky both those schools will recede from recent peaks. 

The hero we need.

He also has some additional aftermath. If there is a frat that manages to get this audio played at the Spartan Stadium gates for next year's game I will move it into the Very Good Frat category.

But different.

NFL RPOs don't look like college ones because you only get a yard downfield in the league, so they have to be outside zone almost exclusively. This was an interesting example and thus got tweeted to me:

For reference, this is the stretch RPO Michigan ran against Army with a similar backside slant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZIAZc0lwDg

So it's not a "better" version of the play, it's pretty much the same thing. Army drops a LB into the slant so Michigan hands off; if Army had played the RPO like the Jets did the throw would have been on. Instead Army covered the slant and won a block at the LOS with a surprising dive inside.

Hypothetically a stretch that reaches the backside DT could break big because this backside LB is staying back, but Army slants so hard playside that a reach is not realistic. So you get this giant gap on the backside…

image

…and nothing to do with it.

If you're getting this a lot (and your QB doesn't have a rib injury) you could convert this into a QB keep where the slot receiver bashes the dropping LB. There's always a counterpunch. The worrying thing about the Army game was the ratio of plays like this where Army covers the slant and has a good plan for dealing with the 5v5 blocking surface to the frontside* and plays like the Bell flare screen that was a free nine yards.

*[that could be trouble for them but they have a thing that works against stretch and probably does even if the LT and LG don't get split.]

The very last Special K mention.

Since football isn't so fun to discuss, what are your thoughts on Special K so far?  Old Town Road was trotted out at opener to an underwhelming response and there was no repeat for Army. 

Honestly I don't even think about it anymore except as a source of generalized physic oppression. I remember when going to Penn State was a shocking assault on the senses, and now it's just another football game.

I'm doing my best to ignore it and only answered this question so that there's some explanation for the fact that I've completely stopped mentioning the in-game environment. I don't want to bother crabbing about it when nobody cares.

Comments

triguy616

September 17th, 2019 at 1:52 PM ^

Isn't it a spot foul? I don't recall there being a 10-yard penalty. Unless you mean your altered rule has the yardage tacked on.

That's why Brian is partially agreeing with it being kind of better than a sack. Since the penalty puts the ball where the QB was when he grounded it, you get the effect of a sack without the potential for a strip fumble.

Mr Miggle

September 17th, 2019 at 3:14 PM ^

There's always a downside to making huge penalties for judgment calls. And grounding will often be a judgment call. 

That's why I prefer the college rule for pass interference over the NFL's.

Making a smart play that could result in a penalty doesn't really bother me. That should be part of the game. Save the big penalties for dirty and/or dangerous plays.

befuggled

September 17th, 2019 at 2:50 PM ^

So intentional grounding on third down would cause a loss of possession? Currently you'd lose a down and it would be fourth downs, and to lose another down we'd have to go to fifth down. While there's historical precedent for that (ask Bill McCartney and Colorado), I'm not sure it would fly.

The other option is to treat an intentional grounding penalty differently on third down versus first and second downs, which I don't think makes sense either.

Edit: I don't think a lot of refs would ever call it on third down, which kind of defeats the purpose.

andrewgr

September 17th, 2019 at 6:36 PM ^

I don't see any reason why the defense is entitled to anything more than a sack.  Intentional grounding avoids the sack; it's not like it gains the offense yardage or anything.

Furthermore, given the current emphasis on protecting QBs and limiting unnecessary contact, if the QB knows he can ground the ball to avoid a sack, he's likely to do so when he can and then not get hit.  The defense gets the same result as a sack, but the QB doesn't get drilled; in today's game, I think that's what the rules are aiming for.

Mongo

September 17th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^

And the NCAA is in the SEC's hip pocket.  That is why California is out to break the monopoly. 

“Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely” (1887, Lord Acton)

1VaBlue1

September 17th, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^

The California law won't take affect until 2023/2024, and then the courts would take a year, or two, to sort things out.  However, the NCAA will come to some agreement that allows NIL payments to the players before then.  They won't let it get to court, and whatever agreement is struck will preserve the status quo as much as possible.  Everyone involved will talk up the 'helping the student athlete' angle.  And the big money will continue to be protected under the table.

Color me cynical, but I don't see the NCAA, P5 conferences, or big money baggers, letting their sweet scheme get nerfed.  They'll changes things from an outward perspective while keeping the infrastructure (more or less) intact.

Newton Gimmick

September 17th, 2019 at 1:28 PM ^

Was in the car a lot on Saturday and listened to the MSU broadcast on WJR.  Holy God, it was non stop blubbering from Blaha and (especially) his sidekick regarding the officiating.

I rewatched the game later and noticed that the officiating was indeed rough but went both ways.  They didn't make a peep about the bullshit PI call to extend MSU's final drive.

evenyoubrutus

September 17th, 2019 at 1:31 PM ^

Good lord Sparty's broadcast team is so atrocious. Blaha is obviously a seasoned professional, but their color guy is like so many fan boys in their media. "You can review penalties now?" Wtf, are you kidding me? You were unaware that certain penalties are reviewable, as it's been for at least a decade now?

Newton Gimmick

September 17th, 2019 at 2:31 PM ^

Against Army, Brandstatter got all excited on the first punt of the game, declaring that DPJ was back to receive.  When that was corrected, he countered, "but I did see DPJ dressed on the sideline."  Then Karsch corrected him saying DPJ was not dressed.

That was right after Army ran a 3rd down play in which he said they gained yards but "not a first down."  OK, 4th and what then?  It kind of matters, especially against Army.

I thought he would get better, but those are pretty bad errors.

stephenrjking

September 17th, 2019 at 3:07 PM ^

Agree. I love Brandy, but he’s an OL being asked to cover a 4.3 receiver in the PbP booth. It’s not what he’s good at. It takes a unique and relatively rare set of tools to be good at play-by-play, and Brandstatter isn’t so equipped.

I think a contributing factor to the choice to put him on PbP was the absence of a readily credible alternative and the possibility of getting Dierdorf (who I think is great and has fantastic credentials for this) in the booth next to him. 

So the equation was: unknown guy plus familiar Brandstatter in his familiar place, or familiar Brandstatter in a different role with well-known, well-respected, and beloved professional next to him. 

I understand why they made the choice, but Brandstatter just isn’t a good PbP guy. I maintain that they should go to a three-man booth for as long as Brandy and Dierdorf both want to work. One may argue that 3 guys is awkward on a radio broadcast, but I’d suggest that it’s less awkward than firing a beloved personality and considerably less awkward than the current PbP. 

stephenrjking

September 17th, 2019 at 5:16 PM ^

Not remotely possible. College football PbP is not a full-time job. Remember when Frank Beckmann decreases his role at Michigan to work the Tigers? That’s a full-time job. Michigan football is 12 Saturdays a year. 

It’s one of the challenges of getting the right guy. The really good broadcasters are already working full-time somewhere else. MSU has, in Blaha, a credible voice who can also easily fit his duties around his more permanent and well-paying Pistons duties. Beckmann had a full-time job at WJR. Brandy and Dierdorf are both, literally, semi-retired. That’s the kind of arrangement you’re looking at. 

And it needs to be someone who is good at it. Doug Karsch fits the bill as a guy with some side work who is familiar to Michigan fans... but he’s not good at PbP. His occasional dalliances with it in his WTKA days were not impressive. 

Left field suggestion: might be tricky with how ridiculously early his season starts... but Ken Cal would be fun to try. 

CRISPed in the DIAG

September 17th, 2019 at 6:40 PM ^

I don't think it needs to be a full time job. With College pbp, the announcing crew doesn't arrive at the game site until late Thurs/Early Friday. Game prep is basically completed before arrival with the exception of a few cursory interviews with staff/player or some other university figure. You leave immediately after the game.

I don't think Eisen would ever happen in large part due to his lack of pbp experience, otherwise he'd be a great fit in a few years.

Grampy

September 17th, 2019 at 8:30 PM ^

Listening to it in real time was a delight to the senses. Blaha and his color guy, Slappy McSlappyface, were quick to point out that the ref picked up the flag, switched to disbelief that the body count was being reviewed, then lapsed into silence while producers/spotters were counting and frothing over the TV replay. They never acknowledged that the penalty was upheld, just that the game was over because the refs were leaving the field. Spartan tears indeed tasted like sugar. 

Booted Blue in PA

September 17th, 2019 at 1:59 PM ^

Not referring to intentional grounding, but when the QB is scrambling to the sidelines and is being chased, unable to turn up field.... I never understand why they don't just heave the ball out of bounds over everyone's head, rather than stepping out a yard or two behind the line of scrimmage.  As long as they're out of the pocket and the ball passes the line of scrimmage, it's not a penalty.

Richard75

September 17th, 2019 at 3:38 PM ^

Regarding college football being broken: Recruiting/cheating plays a part, but the sport has always had that. It’s hard to believe that only now have teams figured out how to keep it quiet.

What’s different about college football today is the offenses—that is, the ability of the best teams to weaponize their talent advantage into unstoppable offenses. 

In the olden days, you had a chance against the top teams because it was possible to keep the score down. Now it isn’t: You have to score 30+ to have a shot against Bama/Clemson/UGa/OU/OSU, since (unlike in the past) they’re too adept at both running and passing to slow down. And scoring 30+ on them is brutally tough, since—save for OU—they have elite defenses. 

L'Carpetron Do…

September 17th, 2019 at 4:00 PM ^

Well-put Mark. I thought for the first time yesterday "does college football suck now?"  It's a two-team game these days and the dominant teams aren't the least bit interesting. There's not even a lesser of two evils among them (I mean, I guess Clemson?).

The games have been ugly and matchups have been boring so far. And major upsets seem like a thing of the past. The game just feels like its missing something that it used to have, something that made it really special.  

The season is still young though and  anything can happen but it seems highly unlikely that an outsider will crash the party and claim an unexpected national championship or that there are any major upsets along the way. Here's to hoping it doesn't go chalk again.

Alumnus93

September 17th, 2019 at 4:14 PM ^

Day seems to me like their Gary Moeller, who took a humming program and went vertical...now it'll come down to the game with us.

BlueInWisconsin

September 17th, 2019 at 4:55 PM ^

The PA was jacked up so loud at the Army game that Carl Grapentine’s dulcet tones were giving me a headache. When is enough enough?  It’s kind of not fun anymore going to games since you can’t talk to anyone else while you’re there.  All you can do it just sit and take the audio beat down. 

Bando Calrissian

September 18th, 2019 at 10:51 AM ^

Didn't you get the MGoMemo? The point of going to a game is no longer to watch, nor enjoy it, much less converse with your neighbors. It's to stand and yell indiscriminately to create a totally lit atmosphere, without regard for anyone around/behind you, and even when there is literally nothing happening.

I'm going to three games this season, probably. I'm going to be wearing the earplugs I wear to rock concerts. Because that's where we're at now.

Bando Calrissian

September 18th, 2019 at 2:06 AM ^

And yet, in my most charitable of hearts, one would think that just not saying anything anymore about in-game environment reinforces to the Athletic Department that everything is fine.

But then I remind myself that they legitimately do not care. Michigan Stadium is going to be an oppressive hellscape of noise and stupid videos and garbage from here on out, and anything that made it special is irrevocably gone. There is no more silence to enjoy the beauty of the day. Only LET'S GET ROWDY BRO RED HAT MAN IS ON THE FIELD UP IN BACK1!11!!

GoBlue1969

September 18th, 2019 at 9:33 AM ^

I am still cracking up at the State fans complaining about the non jumping over the center no-call on the last kick fail. They still forget about blowing up the long snapper in the 2016 punt fumble-

of course that was a John O'Neil crew, shocker. Sparty noooo!