Wasn't this banned 120 years ago?
This seems like an echo of the rules changes in the Teddy Roosevelt era to ban the flying wedge. The chance of injury seems way too high to allow this to continue at every level of football.
October 12th, 2023 at 6:25 PM ^
The Harvard Flying Wedge play is a lot different, but I can also see some similarities to the tush push. And why did they change the rules to allow players to push the ball carrier forward anyway? I hate the play and hope it gets banned.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:37 PM ^
End thread?
October 12th, 2023 at 9:17 PM ^
god, if only.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:45 PM ^
This. What Walter wrote.
The current rugby-ish scrum is bunches of guys pushing against each other. The Flying Wedge was dangerous—with serious injuries prompting a ban within a few years—because the guys with the ball linked together in a wedge running at the tacklers, and running over them.
It's VERY different.
October 12th, 2023 at 8:01 PM ^
It’s an entirely different play. Altogether.
October 12th, 2023 at 8:22 PM ^
Exactly! Had no one watched Haskins and Corum get extra yards the past three years?
October 12th, 2023 at 8:23 PM ^
Had no one watched Airplane! ?
October 12th, 2023 at 9:11 PM ^
It's an entirely different play.
October 13th, 2023 at 4:53 AM ^
" ... tell them to get out there and give it all they got and win just one for the Zipper. I don't know where I'll be then, Doc," he said, "but I won't smell too good, that's for sure."
October 12th, 2023 at 10:22 PM ^
Because when it was banned, it was happening and refs had to make a judgement call and whether it was intentional.
So of course coaches exploit it.
But how many times do you see Corum get in a scrum and the OL keep pushing him forward? Happens every game.
Is that a penalty?
So teams just started doing it intentionally on QB sneaks. But if you ban it, how do you ban it when it's truly within the run of the play?
We leaving it up to officials to judge what is intentional and what isn't? Good luck.
October 12th, 2023 at 11:07 PM ^
Maybe they can ban pushing the ball carrier from behind the line of scrimmage.
October 12th, 2023 at 6:26 PM ^
Brotherly Shove
October 12th, 2023 at 7:41 PM ^
The City of Brotherly Shove?!
Mr. 24—may I call you RobM?—you're brilliant!
October 12th, 2023 at 11:34 PM ^
You think he made that up?
October 12th, 2023 at 6:33 PM ^
I thought it was illegal when Reggie Bush pushed Matt Leinart at Notre Dame in 2005. When Bart Starr sneaked in to win the "Ice Bowl" in 1967, Chuck Mercein famously threw his hands in the air to let the officials know that he didn't push Starr. I have no idea when or why it became a legal play. Wasn't that basically the way the game was played when Bronko Nagurski played fullback for the Bears?
October 12th, 2023 at 7:07 PM ^
It became a legal play in the NFL in 2005 and college in 2014
October 12th, 2023 at 6:36 PM ^
How is the chance of injury too high? Its basically a rugby scrum with pads on.
There's probably a higher chance of injury on punt returns or cut blocks than something like this.
October 12th, 2023 at 6:41 PM ^
Players have been hurt. From the article:
"It has become one of the most controversial plays, and something that defenses are tasked with trying to stop in short-yardage situations. It has also sparked a new debate, as injuries come to the forefront have raised question on if this play will lead to more players getting hurt."
October 12th, 2023 at 7:08 PM ^
The quote you included does not say players have been hurt. It says that maybe they could be hurt. Is there any evidence it is more dangerous than a normal football play? I find it unlikely that it is any more dangerous.
October 12th, 2023 at 10:25 PM ^
The next paragraph said that two players on the NY Giants were hurt utilizing the play....
On Monday night, the New York Giants were not only unsuccessful at stopping the "Tush Push", but also lost two players due to injury after trying to utilize this play. Center John Michael Schmitz and tight end Daniel Bellinger left the game in the first quarter and did not return... Bellinger having sustained a knee injury, and Schmitz who is dealing with a shoulder injury.
October 13th, 2023 at 12:21 AM ^
I'd be concerned if the defense gets hurt by the play, as they are the recipients of the offense's decision
October 13th, 2023 at 8:17 AM ^
Players get hurt in football all the time. If this play was so dangerous, then surely the Eagles, who use it most, must suffer a significantly higher injury rate than other teams.
That does not appear to be the case.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:09 PM ^
This is where journalism gets real shady and downright lazy. I could be mistaken, but the only injuries that have resulted from a Brotherly Shove play was when the Giants, with one of the worst OLs in the NFL, unsuccessfully attempted the play without practicing it first.
If actual objective data supports the notion that the play increases injuries, I'd support a rule change. I'm against changing a rule just because one team does something consistently better than everyone else.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:39 PM ^
Sounds like Saban mustve got hit by this play and called up the hommies at the NCAA to think of the children.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:27 PM ^
The Simpsons have had many wonderful football moments.
October 12th, 2023 at 6:39 PM ^
It's a great play, and it takes real skill and timing to execute properly. Note the Giants' failed recent attempt.
I would nevertheless be fine seeing it banned, but only if there was real evidence that the injury rate on this play was higher than on other plays. That's why I've come around on cutting down on kickoff returns, for instance. A study was done and they really did find an elevated injury rate in a statistically significant sample size.
I don't totally understand why the tush push should be more dangerous than a regular QB sneak. Maybe others have an intuition as to why it is more dangerous, but I would like to see real evidence of an elevated injury rate before they change the rules.
As I understand it, one reason they changed the rules to allow this sort of pushing is because it was really difficult to enforce. Offensive lineman push forward running backs on running plays all the time, and it essentially never got called. The same with the Bush-Leinart thing.
I don't think we need to be further restricting what teams are allowed to do, unless there is good reason to do so. More rules just expand the zone of referee discretion, which, I think, is generally not good for the sport.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:00 PM ^
Spot on. I could attempt to add or elaborate, but what's the point.
A tangent to this discussion is the cascading debacle that is the New York Giants. The Giants have gone from thinking they were actual contenders to NFL laughing stock in astonishing speed. 2022 COTY (😂) Brian Daboll admitted to attempting the Brotherly Shove without actually practicing the play beforehand. The play failed (which is unsurprising given that the NYG OL is one of the NFL's worst) and two of their players suffered injuries. If I were a NYG fan, I'd be livid and demanding immediate accountability, especially given that outrageous contract they paid to Daniel Jones.
October 12th, 2023 at 8:23 PM ^
admitted to attempting the Brotherly Shove without actually practicing the play beforehand
Not sure how you'd really do that in practice. Most practices, especially at the pro level, are designed with an emphasis on avoiding injuries - usually just shells, avoiding pileups and tackling or going to the ground, etc. Doing much of that you'd have players revolting, lawsuits, etc. the moment anybody got hurt in practice.
October 12th, 2023 at 9:16 PM ^
Preseason.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:21 PM ^
It's a great play, and it takes real skill and timing to execute properly. Note the Giants' failed recent attempt.
How do you let me know you're from Philadelphia without telling me you're from Philadelphia.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:29 PM ^
I'm from rural Michigan, actually! I grew up about 45 minutes from Ann Arbor. I have never been to Philadelphia, but I would like to visit. I want to see the Liberty Bell, and I hear the sandwiches are good.
October 13th, 2023 at 8:37 AM ^
If you do.... make sure dining at Lolita is on your agenda. 106 S. 13th Street.
the food is outstanding
October 13th, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^
You can skip Philadelphia and make a cheese steak at home. Slice up some beef, any cut you like, cook it up in a pan with white onions and green peppers, lay that into a one foot long loaf of softish bread, put on some provolone and leave the cheezwiz at the grocery store.
Boom, you not only have an amazing sandwich, but you did not have to enter Philadelphia or eat cheezwiz as a grownup.
October 13th, 2023 at 5:38 PM ^
You're right. Making a legit cheesesteak at home isn't super difficult, especially if you have a flat top.
I disagree about using "any cut." The cut should be ribeye, sliced thin. Full stop. Most butchers will accommodate the request. You may have to call in advance. Fresh, local Italian rolls are important. Soft-style (Amoroso's) or hard-style (Sarcone's) both work well. I'm not a fan of when places outside of Philly used defrosted Amoroso rolls. Provolone is the way to go. American next. Cheez Whiz is for tourists or 2AM Geno's or Pat's debauchery. Grilled green bell peppers are not really a thing. Way too bland. That's a Subway recipe. I suggest either long hots or cherry peppers. For an authentic twist, you can make a Steak Milano, which is Provolone, fried onions, and grilled tomatoes.
Boom.
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October 12th, 2023 at 7:26 PM ^
Great play.
"Great play".
I fixed that for you.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:44 PM ^
Run the train formation with 9 olinemen + kenneth grant up front and Mullings carrying the ball. Have a lineman one each side and one behind. When he goes forward all 3 are shoving him over the goal line.
October 13th, 2023 at 12:07 AM ^
Lol "real skill." You must be joking. Shoving someone in the ass is not real skill. It's a ridiculous play and should be banned immediately.
October 12th, 2023 at 6:48 PM ^
When Michigan does it, then it will be a penalty.
When Michigan adds it to the playbook, then it will be band.
Depending on the teams that are involved, the NFL will pick and choose when it's a penalty.
Since it's the NFL, it will be banded when a star QB gets injured from it.
October 12th, 2023 at 6:52 PM ^
"When Michigan adds it to the playbook, then it will be band."
No. There is only one band of note in Michigan Stadium. The Michigan Marching Band.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:19 PM ^
Yeah. If I'm head coach, the player taking the snap on this play is some backup fullback, not the starting QB.
October 12th, 2023 at 9:10 PM ^
Sparty tried the Tush Push on 4th and short against Iowa a few weeks ago and the play failed. QB Noah Kim is of the diminutive QB variety.
If Michigan installs the play, I'd like to see Orji at QB. He is of the LARGE QB variety. Plus, then the play will get a whole new name.
"Orji Thrust" perhaps?
October 12th, 2023 at 11:10 PM ^
That means the backup FB doesn't have much rep taking live snaps and coaches aren't going to do it.
Beside Tom Brady was a master in QB sneak and never got hurt from it. Same with Jalen Hurts.
October 12th, 2023 at 8:45 PM ^
One of my favorite 60’s era rock stars are The Banned. Cripple Creek gets me every time.
October 12th, 2023 at 6:51 PM ^
Tush pushin illegal?
Nah, Supreme Court struck that down in 2003.
October 12th, 2023 at 7:02 PM ^
I also thought it was illegal. Seems fine to me but slight advantage to the offense. The NFL sometimes makes big changes for weird reasons like Shea McLellin timed this FG block perfectly and then the league banned jumping the line after the season.
October 12th, 2023 at 8:20 PM ^
I like that you can push your teammates and I’m all for it. Michigan does this all the time and it’s awesome. If they want to ban the brotherly love because the risk to the down linemen is really high, I hope they focus on that specifically, and not the broader act of pushing your teammate forward.