A serious discussion about re-opening a state's economy (using OH as an example)

Submitted by crg on April 22nd, 2020 at 4:27 PM

Note: This is not meant to be a political (read: partisan) discussion, but a practical discussion about how states are/can/should approach the issues of re-opening.  I believe that the board is (mostly) mature enough to limit the discussions to reasonable facts and opinions and not lapse into a political flame-war... maybe.

 

I just watched today's COVID update press conference from OH governor Mike DeWine (playfully known as "Wine with DeWine Time" around these parts - if only since the man is so bland when talking if nothing else).  The conversation was mostly about his plan to re-open businesses (to some extent... TBD) starting on May 1 and has been a bit... underwhelming.

For context, DeWine (a Republican) has been (possibly surprisingly so) one of the more pro-active governors in the nation about getting ahead of the crisis.  One good example:  on Sunday March 15th he ordered the closure of bars & restaurants statewide (well before most states had taken any significant action at all - I happened to be back in MI visiting family that weekend and they were shocked to see that such a drastic action was taken by anyone, let alone a Republican in OH).  DeWine received a great deal of criticism (in OH and elsewhere) for that action at the time (and other similar actions shortly after), but was vindicated by late March when much of the rest of the country had taken the same steps (he was even called out for praise internationally by the BBC, among other outlets).

 However, his current actions in pushing for a re-opening of non-essential businesses on May 1st seem in stark contrast to his prior string actions to secure public health.  In his press conference today, he (and his Lt. Gov) outlined various economic reasons why the state economy needs to be re-engaged yet failed to address many of the immediate health issues raised in doing so (let alone why the May 1 date was being strictly pushed).  Just a few of the issues that I saw (and some of the reporters called out in the Q & A):

1)  DeWine earlier this week said that OH would adhere to the guidelines issued by the White House, which include 2 weeks of declining daily COVID cases and deaths before a state economy can re-open.  As of yesterday, the 7 day average of both for OH are slightly increasing (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/ohio-coronavirus-cases.html) and thus could not mathematically meet that criteron - and the re-open date is 9 days from now (he said they have "flattened", which is not strictly true, but also his med chief said today that ICU admissions are trending up again).

2)  A question was asked if the supply chain (masks, disinfectant, etc.) would be ready to support businesses and individuals returning to work by May 1 - especially considering that people are having high difficulty in finding masks even now.  He had no answer to this.

3)  Another question was regarding child care and the practicalities of having working parents leave home when child care centers might not be re-opened to sufficient levels (let alone being deemed "safe" health-wise) and with all schools closed until Fall.

4)  Much attention was given to the financial/economic risks of maintaining the shutdown yet absolutely no numbers/models/estimates were provided about the expected increases in cases/deaths that were likely to be incurred with a May 1 re-open (let alone modeling how these increases would change as a function of changing the re-open date).

5)  Coordination/comparison with other states was not really addressed.  He has in the past emphasized coordination with IN and KY (which have lower cases than OH), yet hardly mentions any coordination with MI and PA (which have higher cases) - yet even in today's Q&A a reported remarked that a Jeep plant in Toledo is scheduled to re-open May 4th and a large contingent of its workers commute from Detroit.  DeWine commented that the plant would be monitored by the OH Dept of Health to keep safe operation but made no mention/discussion about the movement of possible cases across state lines (and how to address it).

6)  A day or so ago, DeWine said he had been approached by small businesses that it was greater concern to them about re-opening soon only to be forced to close quickly again upon any cases resurgence - a later re-opening date would be an easier pain for them to accept than a series of starts/stops.  No information/discussion was provided today (or thus far) about how this would be addressed and how a May 1 date is or is not optimal to avoid this.

These are simply the issues my wife & I noticed while watching today (I'm sure there are others), but it is rather concerning that the state officials seem to be pushing blindly (or perhaps half-blindly) toward this re-open date without crafting a more deliberate and coordinated response.  I know other states are facing the same issue (some more agressively, such as Georgia and S.C., and others more cautiously, such as most of the northern eastcoast, WI, IL and CA), but it just seems foolish to have such a patchwork level response to this issue nationally.

Also, I know that many on this board live/work in OH, may be from OH or have family there, and am curious what their opinions are of DeWine's response and how they would like to see the state government proceed.

Apologies to all if this seems too ranting, but I had been relatively impressed by Ohio's handling of the crisis to date  - yet this seems like a significant risk to take that could cost 1000's of lives unecessarilly.

Sopwith

April 22nd, 2020 at 4:32 PM ^

I believe that the board is (mostly) mature enough to limit the discussions to reasonable facts and opinions and not lapse into a political flame-war... maybe.

You must be new here.

crg

April 22nd, 2020 at 4:39 PM ^

No... just optimistic that most of the responses would reasonable and without the vitriol.

 

If the thread goes down in flames, so be it.

 

Besides, many of the regular posters here have identified as business owners in OH and I am very curious to hear their opinions on the matter.

Tools Of Ignorance

April 22nd, 2020 at 6:34 PM ^

Much of the reason that Ohio's numbers increased is because they began testing entire prison (prisoners and guards) populations.  Marion tested the entire population and found 73% had been infected, zero deaths as of print date.  So while technically the number has increased in Ohio, it's not an accurate representation of citizens who would impact the partial opening of the economy.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/20/838943211/73-of-inmates-at-an-ohio-prison-test-positive-for-coronavirus

 

 

 

Tools Of Ignorance

April 22nd, 2020 at 8:27 PM ^

Metaphorical comparisons aside, there is no comparison between prisons and office buildings.

Personally, I've been working through this entire thing. Unable to take a day off, I've been commuting to the (cubicled) office 40-50 hours a week. I also have a family that I'm worried about bringing "it home to." 

I think, absent of hoping for 100% containment, there isn't a scenario that can't conclude in a slow opening of the world. People are more educated than they were when this started. It is possible to trust humanity to be more careful than they were 2 months ago..

Tools Of Ignorance

April 22nd, 2020 at 9:40 PM ^

Unfortunately, my line of work is essential and wouldn't be feasible to do remotely.  I'd jump at the opportunity to work from home. I just can't.  That being said, I'm able to see how society has changed in the last couple of months...at least in Ohio.

I think most people think, "let's go back to restaurants and bars!!!" when they hear people mention a gradual lifting of restrictions. I'm not that guy yet. I am the guy that says open up mom and pop shops, stop shaming people who want to do work around the house, let people play some euchre with neighbors.  Let some people get back to work to have the same opportunity to support their family that I have.

Out of curiosity, Hatter, what do you envision as an endgame for this? We already know it's not going to be "normal" for quite some time. But when do you think it's a good time for some semblance of normalcy to begin?

TrueBlue2003

April 22nd, 2020 at 8:13 PM ^

Uh no.  A prison is essentially a single large household with shared everything.  Not to mention a lot of different workers coming in and interacting with inmates all day.  So they get exposed to a lot of different sources then just infect one another in a veritable petri dish.

MgoHillbilly

April 22nd, 2020 at 9:28 PM ^

I deal with a lot of incarcerated folk. You speak the truth. Inmates aren't given ppe either in any of the jails and prisons I've been in.  I've seen precautions taken to limit visitation everywhere, but that does little good when it's already spreading inside.  Most places are on lockdown or have otherwise kept inmates confined to their cells to limit exposure. 

MichiganStan

April 22nd, 2020 at 4:39 PM ^

Open everything up outside of hotspots like Detroit and NYC. Keep social distancing. We'll be fine. All of this has been blown out of proportion. It makes no sense to destroy peoples livelihoods all over the state all because Detroit fucked up.

When the real mortality rate is exposed to be around .3% or less people are going to be pissed

Watching From Afar

April 22nd, 2020 at 6:15 PM ^

Dr. Phil (a psychologist) was on Fox News and said we don't close the economy for car deaths or swimming pool drownings. He said 360,000 swimming pool drownings when he meant (giving him the benefit of the doubt for no reason) 3,600. But even that is wrong. 3,600 is the number of deaths not at lakes or ponds IIRC. So it's basically water related deaths not at large bodies of water.

Regardless, anyone bringing on that guy as a "medical" voice should be shot into the sun.

Alpaca

April 22nd, 2020 at 4:55 PM ^

People keep blaming big cities as the source for locking things up. But the rural areas are one of the reasons why this lockdown is necessary.  Lets say a small town in northern michigan gets a delivery from an urban area and somehow this small town gets a case of Covid. They may get lucky not to spread it but once it is spread the hospital in that area does not have the means to take care of everyone that gets sick. They all are not gonna get transported to a bigger hospital either because they won't accept the transfer. And now they will die because the hospital does not have the resources to care of the patients. This is why the lockdown is important for both the rural and urban areas. 

Cc2010

April 22nd, 2020 at 5:59 PM ^

Great point except for the fact that not everyone is going to get sick and then not everyone will need hospitalization.  One of the problems in this is that worst case scenario has become the accepted version of every event.  Not been proven anywhere

Alpaca

April 22nd, 2020 at 10:38 PM ^

It doesn't need everyone. How often do you think a rural hospital needs actual ICU care? Imagine if they get even 10 cases? Does the hospital have enough and proper PPE? Imagine the number of ventilators available at that rural hospital. Imagine the staff available. The hospitals in urban areas are unable to staff their own hospital in this situation. Medical staff have their own co-morbidities and some don't want to risk it. There's a lot of things that can fuck up a rural hospital and it doesn't  take much. That's the issues we need to consider. Just like issues the OP raised in opening it up. White house guidelines don't even have solutions for the issues the OP brought up. And they are legit issues that need to be taken care of before we open up. Otherwise in 2 months we will have to lockdown again. And that will only hurt us more. It was proven in Italy just weeks ago. When hospitals get overwhelmed we saw what happens. Elderly giving up ventilators for younger people. People were crying when they would hear that Italy had 800 deaths in 1 day. Guess how many we had today?

OP raised a lot of great issues that don't have solutions and they are factors that will make opening up worse. There is a way to do it. 

J.

April 22nd, 2020 at 8:51 PM ^

You do realize that masks do virtually nothing to protect the wearer, right?  N95 respirators, maybe, if they're used properly (and even then, you can still get sick).

As far as I'm concerned, a "reopening" that includes mandatory mask usage isn't a "reopening" at all.  I will stay home before I will go out in public covering my face like a criminal.  Masks are going to exacerbate the schisms in this country by contributing to the fear of "other" and I will not participate in it, especially when the science is as faulty as it is here.

The theory behind masks is to keep the wearer's germs from spreading to others.  Surgeons do not wear masks to keep from getting sick.  The purpose is to prevent their immunocompromised patients from getting sick.  Even then, these homemade cloth masks aren't going to do very much except maybe slow down a sneeze.  The idea that asymptomatic people are spreading this disease through breathing is implausible in any but the closest quarters.  (Think Seinfeldian close-talker).  Aerosolized breath falls to the ground pretty quickly.  Realistically, most people get COVID the way they get the flu: by touching an infected surface and then touching their face, especially the mouth or eyes.

We cannot function as a society as long as we are all convinced that everyone else is a lethal threat.  This germophobia will do none of us any good in the long run.  There is absolutely no question in my mind that the cure is already worse than the disease.  The longer we wait before opening the world back up, the greater the number of deaths we're going to have from the damage we're doing to the world economy.

LewisBullox

April 22nd, 2020 at 10:19 PM ^

Nah man, it doesn't work the way you describe. It's not a question of virus size vs. mask pore size. It's how effective a mask is against aerosols. You're right in that wearing a mask is not 100% effective. Let's say only 50% and then you encounter another person wearing a mask. Guess what, you're 4 times less likely to get the virus in that encounter.

J.

April 22nd, 2020 at 11:21 PM ^

Your misconception is a common one, but it's still a misconception.  This is the source of the original CDC recommendation not to wear masks.  (Well, except for the "hundreds of years" part.  That's not even remotely true. Pasteur's germ theory is barely 150 years old).

The problem is that the pores in the masks are big enough for a virus to pass through easily.  What the mask does is slow the virus down.  If the virus is on the way out, it is slowed near the wearer's face and likely drops to the ground prior to infecting anyone.  If the virus is on the way in, it is slowed just as it's entering the wearer's mouth, where it proceeds to infect the body.

If you see a doctor wearing a mask in a non-surgical setting, it may be because the procedure is expected to create large amounts of larger biowaste, or it may be that the person has been diagnosed with a highly transmissible bacteria (although they'd likely wear a biohazard suit in that case).  Bacteria are large enough that masks are much more effective against them than they are against viruses.