OT: Wimbledon to bar Russians and Belarusians from competing
I'm not sure how I feel about this.
“In the circumstances of such unjustified and unprecedented military aggression, it would be unacceptable for the Russian regime to derive any benefits from the involvement of Russian or Belarusian players with The Championships.”
I get that organizations are trying to make a moral statement with actions like these, but still...
Now, should the NHL decide to bar Russians from participating in the Stanley Cup playoffs...
April 20th, 2022 at 11:04 PM ^
Russia may well be in the process of following the same process with Georgia and Moldova. Perhaps the results of their Ukraine invasion may discourage them from proceeding with Georgia and Moldova.
As much as it sucks for the Russian athletes (especially Medvedev who doesn't support the war), this is absolutely necessary. We need to isolate Russia, the Russian economy, and unfortunately the Russian people from being able to participate on the modern civilized global stage until they stop the war. This isolation will put pressure on Putin and hopefully motivate the people to stand against him. Unfortunately this isolation may push more Russians to become nationalist Putin supporters as well (Russia vs the World mentality).
So you're already admitting that your strategy will fail?
April 20th, 2022 at 11:07 PM ^
Perhaps you should reread the comment. He did not say it would certainly work. He said it could fail. That is reality. There are few sure things in life. especially in such complicated situation.
When I read the tread title I thought it must be due to doping. What a dope I am.
I have no idea how I feel about this or what the right "move" is here. I can see a logical thought process on how people can conclude this is good or bad, great idea or stupid idea.
I do think it is completely in vain either way and it will have zero effect on Putin's decisions.
On one hand this is definitely unfair, as just being Russian doesn't mean you support Putin.
On the other, if the world had stood up to the Nazis earlier instead of appeasing them and even celebrating them (see Olympics Berlin 1936) maybe things would have gone differently.
For all of you moaning and groaning about economic sanctions impacting Russian citizen pro athletes from tennis to hockey to basketball: What are you doing to stop the ongoing deaths of Ukrainians and Russians caused by Russia’s attack on Ukraine? Western economic sanctions against Russian officials, businesses, businesspeople, cultural figures and pro athletes are preferable strategies to military escalation by NATO and its partners. Like all wars, this one is a horrible tragedy which will result in death an destruction and very little which is positive. The sooner it is brought to an end, the better for all impacted innocents, whether Ukrainian or Russian. After the war is ended, those who initiated and/or facilitated this war must be tried for their international crimes against humanity.
Unfortunately, I don't see any scenario where the West will be able to engage with Russia on any level again until Putin is gone. Dude wants to be the next Stalin/Hitler and won't stop until he's dead.
Yea this seems racist. Punishing Russians bc they’re Russian.
Pretty sure Russian is not a "race". This is absolutely anti-Russian, but not racist.
Then again, all the past anti-Irish, Polish and Italian stuff is probably catalogued as "racist' so who knows?
racism could be extended to ethnicity dude.
Ok, but was banning Russia from the Olympics for mass doping "racist"? Or was it a punishment for breaking the rules?
The Russian Government right now is breaking the rules of the world by basically committing genocide. I'm not sure punishing all Russians for this is the right call, but I'm pretty sure it isn't racist.
The problem is, Russia's leaders and corrupt oligarchs want to have it both ways. Putin's quest is to recreate the geographic footprint of the Soviet Union as a fascist empire and isolate its citizens in a closed, totalitarian society; and yet he and his billionaire oligarch buddies want to continue to live lavish lifestyles in their Mediterranean villas and cruise their hundred million dollar yachts to stylish Western ports. Europe is saying no, this time you've gone too far: by invading a country whose citizens had a Western-style independent nation and overwhelmingly want self-determination.
If it's a closed society that Russia wants, then fine, the door needs to be closed to its athletes, musicians, and other performers who have enjoyed free access to the rewards of Western culture and lifestyle, but who still support Putin. Supporting Putin is supporting literally thousands of targeted cruise missile and artillery strikes on Ukraine apartment buildings, hospitals, and theatres, where thousands of innocent civilians are now dead, and for which there is absolutely no moral justification.
Deuces Russia. I guess Wimbledon has no LOVE for thee. Game. Set. Match.
(sorry)
Yes, Russians should be banned from all activities outside of Russia
wow very short sighted and dumb
Anyone questioning this move by Wimbledon has their head up their ass. Putin has such a hammer lock, coupled with an impregnable nuclear option that leaves only one viable path to having this end favorably any time soon and that is that his people, every last one of them including rich oligarchs, tennis players and hockey players, be banished home to put as much pressure as possible on that maniac to alter course. Otherwise, that they declare themselves independent of Russia, remove their families as needed, and join the side of reason on openly, and vocally condemning that son of a bitch.
Anything in the middle is a slap in the face Ukrainians, and freedom lovers everywhere.
April 21st, 2022 at 12:12 PM ^
Death is rather absolute for most us. I support any action that stops the unnecessary death. If banning Russian athletes gets us closer, then by all means proceed.
April 21st, 2022 at 12:35 PM ^
Reread his comment. It wasn't just about banning athletes.
He explicitly says that all Russians, "every last one of them"..."be banished home" to put pressure on Putin. This would also include the people that came here fleeing Putin. You might believe this is a good idea. I do not.
He then says that otherwise they can leave Russia with their families to join the side of reason to openly condemn Putin. That's great and all, but most Russian's just don't have the luxury of doing that because they can't afford it. And if they stay and openly oppose Putin, they lose their jobs and end up homeless and starving somewhere in the countryside.
These are the options that he put forward. And then he ends with the gem that "anything in the middle...is a slap to freedom lovers anywhere". This is the absolute I was referring to. Personally, I think it's a slap in the face of freedom lovers to send someone trying to escape Putin back to his country.
But whatever. People want simple solutions to difficult problems and don't bother to look at the nuance or the negative consequences of their policies.
You do realize that this is not necessarily different than the policies during the heights Cold War, I assume. People still fled/defected to the West & spoke out about it even though it could lead to reprisals against their friends and families back home (this is still happening with North Korean defectors). Barring entrants that are coming for some form of financial gain - especially when it is likely that the proceeds of which could help support their regime - is also nothing new. Similar policies were in place then, although the Soviets were restricting those who could travel to the West in those days so it was not as obvious.
I know all of this. None of this or what you write here or in other places is new to me. And for some reason you are attributing comments to me that I didn't write. Let me explain one more time:
He was talking about kicking people out of the country. "All Russians...every last one of them...be banished home"! That would, by necessity, include people that came here to escape Putin's shit. Please tell me how any "freedom loving person" (in the poster's words) could stand behind this. And yes, this would be different from the policies during the height of the Cold War. When did we expel all Russians during the Cold War?
He also makes the glib comment that anyone can leave Russia and join the freedom loving peoples and speak out against Putin. How many people can simply afford to pack up and leave their country? If they could leave, how many of them would be able to get Green Cards/Work Permits in the US or other western countries? We don't just hand them out, you know. So the common person stays behind in Putin's shitty Russia and he expects them to speak out against Putin. Great. They lose their jobs, homes, and die in the fucking cold. You may or may not be willing to expect that sacrifice from the common Russian person, I don't know. But I won't.
I said nothing about defectors leaving their families behind. Yes it happened/happens. Yes, they get treated like shit. Nothing new here. Yes, we bar people from entering if they are associated with particular regimes. Yes, we bar people from making money here if that money will be used to support the regime. Again, nothing new here. But I was not talking about any of this.
I've got nothing against you personally, but I really think people are losing their minds. It was fine that people disagreed with my position on Wimbledon. I gave my reasons and my position was based on my knowledge and research in this area. Many people disagreed. That's great. Not everyone thinks alike, nor should they.
But now we have people that are advocating kicking all Russians out of the country (see also the comments toward the beginning of the thread). When did we become a country that kicks all people out because of their nationality?
You are also taking his (the poster's) comments in partial context: he basically qualified later in the post that Russians should be compelled to return to their country if they choose not to dissociate or otherwise disavow the actions of their government.
Not that I necessarily agree with this stance, but that is a more reasonable position (especially with events such as performances and sporting events).
I don't see that anywhere in his comment, but fine. I still disagree with it.
Otherwise, that they declare themselves independent of Russia, remove their families as needed, and join the side of reason on openly, and vocally condemning that son of a bitch.
That was how I distilled the gist of his comment shown here.
Yes, bar Russians from playing in the NHL. The Russian people need to feel the pain and work to change their leadership.
edit: stop working with them on the Space Station. Let it crash.
I'm sure all the freedom-loving, antiwar crowd here will support banning all Israeli tennis players from Wimbledon, since Israel has been bombing the Gaza strip this past week.
April 20th, 2022 at 11:12 PM ^
In your world does violent provocation or lack thereof hold no value in arbitrating just response?
Was Ukraine shelling the Donbas not provocation?
April 21st, 2022 at 12:13 PM ^
Did Ukraine start said conflict in the Donbas? No.
April 20th, 2022 at 11:13 PM ^
Again, a completely different situation. Not at all comparable.
You're right. The American government actually has a lot of leverage over Israel and could actually force them to stop Palestinians. Not much they can do about russia at this point.
April 21st, 2022 at 12:17 PM ^
It seems that just about every military action by the Isrealis against Palestinians is in *response* to an attack by Palestinian militants. The Israeli government has much it needs to change about how it treats Palestinians (and other non-Jews), but... they aren't the instigators of any of the modern conflicts (which is one reason why so many of the moderate Arab states have been willing to open up relations with Isreal).
Collective punishment is a warcrime as defined by the United Nations. They are absolutely instigators of the entire conflict for continuously stealing Palestinian land, jailing, beating and murdering Palestinians since '47. They've made Gaza an unlivable open air prison and they continue to full the West Bank with illegal settlements.
And which Arab states do you consider moderate? The UAE? Saudi? Does moderate just mean allied to the US?
You are injecting a great deal of subjective opinion into your assessment of that situation, such as what is considered "collective punishment". Your accusations of "stealing" and "murdering" also give doubt to objectivity. As I said, there are numerous policies that the Israelis need to change, some of which you touch upon (e.g. settlements) - although they are not necessarily fully to blame for everything you claim (e.g. Gaza - Hamas has made that situation worse as well).
As far as the "moderate" states - just look at those that are/have normalizing relations with Isreal: Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Bahrain with full relations as well as numerous others (such as Oman) that are mostly open.