OT: Thoughts on Rumors of Rose to Pistons?
Surprised I hadn't seen a thread on it yet (unless I missed it) but what do people think about the rumors of Rose to Detroit?
I'm not a big NBA fan so I don't know how much of a factor he would be with his injury history but are people generally excited or is it seen as a bad move?
What’s it going to hurt? I like the move. Makes things a little more interesting.
What is to hurt is the obvious direction of tanking they need to go. But since they have a refusal to rebuild properly; sure, why the hell not.
People act like tanking is some kind of guaranteed contender in 2 or 3 years. It's not. If the Pistons tanked and got the number 1 pick that player would play their rookie contract and be out of town.
The Pistons needs to get clever. The 04 team was a collection of spare parts that clicked and made every player better. I really liked their draft and I would like the addition of Rose. Time to take some chances and see what they can put together.
So there are one of two ways to succeed in the NBA today (And I'm not going to recognize the 2004 team as a viable way to win in 2019, because it's not; that is why it is continually cited as one of the most unusual champions in the NBA):
-Lure free agents to your city. That won't happen because Detroit is not a free agent destination.
-Rebuild through the draft by picking in the top 5.
Option two is the only logical way for Detroit to win again. And they keep messing it up by being JUST good enough to make the playoffs, but will never win a playoff series.
The bottom line is that this model of the Pistons is built with guys that just are not good enough to win. Reggie and Drummond have proven over the long haul that they cannot bring you success. Blake had a great season, but how many more times do you think he's going to bust his ass for this franchise, only for them to get broomed away in 4 games? He's not going to waste his last few years playing for this downtrodden franchise.
Drafting well is more important than drafting early. The San Antonio Spurs won five NBA championships from 1999 to 2014 and did not draft earlier than 20th during the entire stretch of time. They have not had a lottery pick in 23 years.
The Golden State Warriors haven't had a draft pick higher than 7 since 2002 and won the 2015 NBA championship without notable free agency signings and before signing Kevin Durant.
Well... yeah. When you pick guys like Curry (7th), Klay (11th), Duncan (1st), that leads into your organization being elite and not having to worry about picking high. When would GS and San Antonio, programs that were generally elite for massive stretches of time, pick in the lottery? That's a weird point.
You need to get a high level pick in order to turn destitute franchise around if you are not a destination city. Sure, there is a little luck involved in finding the right guy, but would you rather this team continue to poke and prod and see if they get lucky? Or put themselves in a position to get a mercurial talent? Because the stats are massively overwhelming in terms of players being great in the early parts of the draft vs the guys after the lottery.
Because what they are doing right now is stale, boring, and not working. This is a horrible product to watch and one that continues to spin its own wheels.
Tim Duncan wasn't "Tim Duncan" for the last ten years of his career. You want to base it on a 23 year old draft pick? They made savvy moves through the draft and with low-key trades and free agency moves while not being a destination city for free agents.
My point about the Warriors is that they drafted organically. They did not tank, they were just not very good until they made some very good drafts outside of the Top 5. Neither Thompson nor Curry is the kind of player that you get by "tanking." That is just drafting well.
Yes, those are players you get by tanking. You'll rarely (I know it happens) land guys of that ability when you are constantly picking 15-20.
The tanking/losing will happen organically with the Pistons when they get rid of these players that have no winning acumen (Jackson, Drummond) and Blake, who is not going to waste his last few years busting his butt for this crap organization.
The Bucks had the best record in the league despite picking in the top 10 exactly 4 times in the past decade, 3 of those #10. They got the bulk of their core via trades and good drafting later on in the lottery and just outside. The Nets were able to build a team without a single lottery pick stemming from their terrible trade to the Celtics that looked appealing enough to attract big free agents. The Raptors aren't a FA destination but kept putting out good teams and were appealing enough that they got Leonard in a trade and won a title. GSW got Curry and Thompson but neither was a slam-dunk selection and it wasn't like GSW was trying to tank; they just weren't very good.
People point at Philly as if that "process" really made any damn sense. It wasn't. It was "let's be terrible and collect assets and then if by some stroke of luck all those guys played well at the same time then it worked", which it only sorta did and then Hinke was (rightfully) fired and now the 76ers are, what, the 3rd-best team in the East? Their idea was to follow the "model" we saw with the Thunder, which was to draft 3 straight HOF players, which is FAR harder to replicate than "be good and try to sign some guys/get disgruntled stars in trades". That's what always drove me crazy about their plan.
Detroit isn't particularly good, and their future doesn't look particularly bright, but even though I find Rose to be a pretty bad guy who is a shell of his former self on the court, he's still a functional PG who gives them some depth at a spot where Ish Smith was clearly the first option but they were paying Reggie Jackson too much money to not give him minutes. And maybe that gives them a shot at the 6 seed in the East (they were basically there before Blake got hurt), and then who knows.
Philly is the shinning example of how tanking works. They didn’t even draft well and it worked. The Pistons need to have the worst record in the league the next 3-5 years. Then as those young players start getting older you make your move to compete.
And you sign a big free agent right before you have to pay your new stars the max.
Tanking works. It is clear. Anyone who says otherwise ignores reality.
Didn’t Philly get bounced in the second round in like 5 games?
With restricted free agency, it's actually pretty easy for teams to retain their top free agents after their rookie deals expire. The player can take a 1 year qualifying offer to enter unrestricted free agency faster, but that's a significant financial sacrifice. Really the only case of a somewhat desirable player signing the qualifying offer was Greg Monroe for the Pistons in 2014 or 15ish.
If they don't overpay I like the move. They don't have much to build on right now anyway, if he can stay healthy he could at least elevate them to a middle seed playoff team.
$15M over two years seems like a bargain based on the other FA contracts being doled out... yes, Rose has a lot of injury baggage, but he was a MVP about 7-8 yrs ago
Just curious...do we still have Arnie Kander working his magic with guys to keep them healthy?
Yes, they brought him back last year.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2018/07/17/detroit-pistons-arnie-kander/792070002/
I didn’t even know he was still playing. I hope this isn’t their big splash.
He actually had a very nice rebound season with the t-wolves this past year . At least we can’t say their last big free agent signing was Josh Smith
Baby steps...
Charlie V.
Unfortunately it is. The team is up against the salary cap. This team is a middle of the pack team with a top 5 payroll.
He is a Piston ,has been for a few days now .I wonder why it hasnt been reported yet....
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3456/derrick-rose
No free agents could sign until July 1st, so he has not been a Piston until today
Jalen Rose?
Pass, he is way past his prime.. oh wait, Derrick Rose. I stand by my previous statement.
He is a very good mid level player on a great contract. Better to have him on that deal than Bullock. He’ll be the best PG they’ve had in quite some time. With him, Blake, and Andre they could end up a 5 or 6 seed depending on how the east shakes out and Kawhi goes to the west as expected.
Would be much better to be 15 than 5 in the East.
What the heck, why not, but they're way over the cap, so this is probably going to be their big splash. The Bucks, Nets and (maybe) Raptors are the forces in the East, so it probably won't matter much.
The Celtics, 76ers,and Pacers are all better than the Pistons as well. The Pistons are a 7-8 seed at best. The signing is fine but doesn’t change much.
Considering the fact that Ricky Rubio and Terry Rozier, two players who are inferior to Rose, got close to $20M/yr each, this is an incredible signing. Huge upgrade on Ish Smith as a backup and this gives the Pistons freedom to go out and trade Reggie Jackson's expiring contract without wondering who's going to start at PG.
Perfect. Dude can’t go six games w/out being injured.
He did play in 51 regular season games last year for the t-wolves. Not great, but the most he’s played since the 2015-16 season.
I want “paid someone to take the s.a.t for me Derrick rose”. Not injury prone Derrick rose
Honestly, none of it matters until Jackson and Drummond are out of town and the team gets to draft someone in the top 5.
The rest of the East and the NBA are so in front of the Pistons, it's pretty bad.
I can see this moving us all the way up to the 7th seed. This team is garbage, I wish they would quit acting like they are contenders and just start over already.
It's not that simple. Once you have anchor contracts, you can't shed them very easily.
Aside from his whole gang rape past, it's a good signing.
"No, but we men. You can assume."
https://theundefeated.com/whhw/derrick-rose-and-friends-cleared-of-gang-rape-charges-in-los-angeles/
This story makes me sad and angry, but what makes me sadder and angrier is that so few people are talking about this in the wake of his signing. It's embarrassing to know that millions of people will be cheering for this man while the woman he raped has to watch him be praised by fans and media alike. I hope future generations will right our wrongs and look back on today's rape culture with shame and embarrassment.
Only if he promises not to bet on the games.
Every Rose has its thorn...
This move would have been interesting about 10 years ago.
Now, the Pistons have another guy that can't shoot.
He did have one of his best years last year in terms of shooting the ball. Some of the highest 2pt and 3pt percentages in his career. Also went off for 50 in a game. Might not be vintage D Rose but he can still shoot it...as long as he stays healthy.
D Rose sucks. Just as a whole package, he sucks. He's cheap, yes, but he sucks.
Don't forget about the cloudiness of the rape charges. At a minimum, this guys so fucking stupid he doesn't know what the definition of "consent" is (which is different than not knowing you need to be told "yes" before a sexual act, but still....)
Pistons are in a bad place. It's gonna take a while. This signing will not help. Gores is clueless.
Not sure why some are so down on this signing (other than his lack of knowledge of consent). It’s a short term, inexpensive contract. If he stays healthy, Pistons have a good backup PG that can be flipped at this deadline or the next for some draft picks or young players. If he does poorly, he isn’t a long term anchor and one of the young guys will get a chance.
Theres not a real downside here in terms of on the court product and cap hit. He’s not the Derrick Rose of old but he’s not getting paid like it either. Pistons aren’t going to be contenders unless their draft pick ends up a steal like Giannis. But this helps them sneak into the playoffs again, which is fine with me as I grew tired of a decade of missing the playoffs. Won’t be able to tank for at least another two years, so might as well win some games.
Why can't they tank ? All they need to do is give away Griffin and they would be awful.
How are you going to get anyone to take that contract? Only way to trade him is to take other bad contracts in return - no point in that - or to give up some assets of your own to sweeten the pot. The latter doesn’t make sense when you’re tanking because you want to keep your picks to build for the future.
Cant trade him or Drummond til they’re in the last year or two of their contracts. Teams might be willing to take those hits with massive cap relief in sight within a season or two.
I did not think there was a single organization that would ever take on Prince Fielder. But it happened.
If you want it bad enough, and you have a clear intention, you can find suitors for Drummond. But they don't. Gores loves him.
No salary cap in baseball. Much easier to eat a bad contract and not affect the rest of your team (unless you’re a penny pinching team)