OT: Talking Cars Tuesday - Modern Muscle
There was an interesting bit of car-news from Q1, in that the Dodge Challenger (an 11 year old model on a 15+ year old platform) sold more vehicles in Q1 than the Chevy Camaro (a 3-4 year old model that just had a refresh). Of course, the Ford Mustang is still the modern American Muscle King, selling more than either of the other two main contenders. This got me to thinking.
For today's Talking Cars Tuesday which are you taking? Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger? Which version? Why? For the purposes of this internet discussion, let's say that you are getting car X magically for free and at 0 cost. Magically your garage will have an extra spot to fit this car. Also magically, you'll only pay for the same equivalent $$ in gas as if you were using your regular vehicle - same with insurance, maintenance, and yadda yadda. And let's say you can still have your regular vehicle, so this is a purely "when you want to drive it" magical question.
So - would you go Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger? Or is there a better option for you in the "Modern Muscle" realm? Let's keep it to new cars, but legit competitors. You think the ancient 370Z is better? Sure... But let's not act like your dream Ferrari fits this discussion.
Daaaamn... are you allowed to post pornography on MGoBlog?
Okay. That's tough. I'm assuming we are talking relatively 'base' models? Not the Demon or Hellcat?
For me it's between the Challenger and the Mustang. The Camaro is a hell of a car; but I don't like the cramped interior or shitty greenhouse (yes I'm old).
The Challengers interior is way better, IMHO. Uconnect is nicer. It's a car I can drive all day long, take on a trip, and still rag out.
On the other hand, my buddy brought up a Mustang a few years back. 5.0; 400 odd HP. 6 speed. Convertible.
That was damned fun.
I'd go with the Mustang with the Challenger as a close second.
Please do one next week comparing pick-ups!
April 30th, 2019 at 12:31 PM ^
Forgot in the OP - are you going Hellcat? SS? GT350? Scat Pack? ZL1? Bullitt? Demon? Z28? GT Convertible?
For my 40th my wife got me a day at an SRT exhibition. I drove the 392 Challenger, SRT Charger and 300, and SRT Jeep.
Those had about 475 HP so that's an amount of power I'm comfortable with. Any more and the car becomes something you need lessons to drive, IMHO.
I had a buddy wreck his dad's viper once by sneaking it out and mashing the throttle. Ends swapped. Wheels hit things.
April 30th, 2019 at 12:32 PM ^
So my real life Fusion Hybrid doesn't count?
I'm going with the Mustang. It lead the entire field with it's remake a decade ago - everybody else is just following, at this point. Great entries for Chevy and Dodge, but they're still just following...
I don't think you quite have your timeline correct. The 6th generation Mustang came out in 2015, which was well after the Challenger showed up. The 5th generation was not a pretty car.
April 30th, 2019 at 12:34 PM ^
Whatever John Wick is comfortable driving works for me.
April 30th, 2019 at 12:40 PM ^
Gt350 - for nothing other than its glorious naturally aspirated flat plane crank 526 horse V8 that screams to around 8500 and sounds like demons unleashed from the torment of hell.
The Camaro probably fastest (1LE I think is the model, other than the demon, which isn't really a daily) and challenger in my book probably best looking although long in the tooth since release. But I'll take the gt350 bowl of porridge.
A guy at work has a GT350 - just brought it back out last week. I try to leave when he does just to hear it. The sound really is that good.
I'll admit I might not even particularly care for the front end or interior, but as you say - it just sounds *so* good.
YES YES YES GT350!
Oh man, I forgot about the sound of that flat plane crank motor.
the kids asked me a similar question a while back: what muscle car would you get. i told them i had no desire or use for one, it wouldn't be able to get to the farm many days if i did get one, but if 'forced' i'd get a corvette.
of the 3 listed, based on looks alone, i think i'd pick the camaro. no idea about performance, visibility, etc, but i like the look. i'm sure they're all pretty cool.
Much has been made of the Camaro's visibility, which is bad. But not that bad! I had a 2019 V6 as a rental a month or two ago for a work trip Chicago - Detroit - back the next day. It was a fine highway cruiser despite the small windows & large C pillar. Set the mirrors right and it wasn't bad. Was also red, so very visible. I even got 30MPG with the cruise control set at 77mph.
I think the Camaro's main issue is that the interior is quite claustrophobia-inducing. It could really benefit from a glass roof to let more light in.
what do you think of the new corvettes? i'm old enough that i remember the old ones made in the '70's, the fiberglass ones. they were cool looking too, but terrible to drive and probably not that safe. but the new ones look like they'd be a lot more livable to drive and i'm sure they are smoking hot.
Depends on how tall you are... I'm 6'3 and I couldn't get comfortable in the coup and in the convertible the top of the windshield casing was right in front of my eyes. Bummer.
I can't remember how I fit in the Mustang and never tried the newer model Camaro or Challenger.
I'm 6'2" and have a huge amount of head room in my Challenger without feeling like I have to lower the seat to the floor.
Luckily I hail from the Shire
April 30th, 2019 at 10:23 PM ^
I am 6' 3" and fit fine in a 2005 Corvette. I had it 7 years, at which point I got a 2013 Shelby GT500 as 662 hp seemed crazy to me. So I guess I would say Mustang for me although I love the Hellcat Challenger. If I didn't own the Shelby, I might go for the Hellcat.
I love them. To me they are an amazing sports car bargain.
However, I'm ashamed to say my rear didn't fit into the recaro seats of the one I sat in.
Mustang for sure. I may be partial though. I've owned 5 different mustangs in my life. Currently my daily driver is a 2017 GT and I have a 1969 GT with the 351W in my garage. If I could add one more it would have to be a Coyote swapped IRS Fox coupe or a new GT350. I'd probably lean towards the fox though since I sold my 89 to be able to get the 17.
April 30th, 2019 at 10:27 PM ^
I have had 5 too. Love Mustangs!
1979 Turbo Hatchback
1986 GT
1990 LX 5.0 Hatchback
1995 GT Convertible
2013 Shelby GT500
I'm a bit biased, seeing as I've had my 2010 Challenger R/T since it rolled off the delivery truck.
That being said, I'd love a new SRT 392 if money weren't an issue. I think it splits the difference nicely between what I've got and the useless power of the Hellcat and Demon. I'd probably opt for the paddle shifters instead of the manual I have now though.
You couldn't pay me to drive the Camaro anywhere but a track because it's so damn ugly.
While the Mustang is a beautiful car, and I'm sure I'd enjoy driving the convertible version, I don't want people to think I'm driving a rental.
Yeah, the 2019 refresh front end is a bit off -what's that black bar doing? Who signed off on that?
That said, I like how you think 485HP is much more usable than 707 :-)
After driving around for nearly a decade with 400 HP under my foot, 485 doesn't seem like a huge jump. I'm pretty sure I can keep the car straight if I put my fut down. On the other hand, 707 seems like I'd be destined for a bad day.
As for the Camaro, I've yet to see a single one that looks better than the last Trans-Am Firehawk. None of the proportions make any sense to me, and it seems like it was designed specifically for the track. When I was living in Wilmington, I could do the 12 hour drive to my parents' house in one shot and not be sore when I got done. I highly doubt I could do that in the Camaro.
Actually the Hellcat is suprisingly drivable. I'd say it mostly feels like the 392 while you're driving around town. You definitely notice the extra power when you go any further than 50% pedal, but as long as you stay out of it, its actually quite managable.
I'll take the camaro but I gotta say, as someone who grew up hating the mustang, I would take a new one in a heartbeat. They are really nice looking and as I get older I find brand loyalty less of an issue.
I have a 2018 Challenger RT with the 6.4L and it's a blast. I haven't driven the Camaro or Mustang so I can't really comment. I'm a Dodge fanboy so Challenger or Charger all the way for me. They're boats, but fun boats.
Did you comparison shop at all? I mean I get that a 6.4L isn't a rational buy, but still. Before I bought my GTI I went and drove a Focus ST... just to be sure.
Nope, didn't need to. Had my heart set on it. Used to work at a Dodge dealership so had "the hook up" there as well. Basically blind brand loyalty to all things MOPAR so... easy choice.
Not saying it's the best of those three, but styling wise for me, there is no comparison.
To me, Camaro just looks kind of cheap, and everyone and their brother has a Mustang...
That said, great time to be a HP fan - back when I was a kid 300HP was "crazy!" and limited to supercars (looking at you red Countach!) but lots of cars in the mid12s to low 13s now running 350-400HP+. Getting my time in now before it all goes autonomous and burnouts and a little drift here and there become a thing of the past.
"That said, great time to be a HP fan - back when I was a kid 300HP was "crazy!"
Amen. Things have changed.
When I was a kid I remember my uncle buying a 5.0 liter mustang with a V8 and a five speed. I was so amazed. I think it had like 180HP
Later on I was a Dodge Boy and fell in love with another uncle's GLH. 146 HP. 
Then there was the Mustang SVO. IIRC it was around 200 HP and I LOVED IT.
Then we had the 'new' fox body GT in '88 or so. Pete Elezovic went to my HS and I think he had one. I lusted after it. Cheese grater headlights and all. What tipped me over the edge? 225hp and a 5 speed. Almost as much as the Corvette of the day, but alot cheaper.
People, especially some of the kids I talk to nowadays, that complain about the infotainment systems on their car need to re-adjust their perspective. My original car was a Ford LTD II with a 351 and I think around 135hp.
(like this. With alot more rust). No handling. Slow. Tons of gas usage. Infotainment was an AM/FM Radio with dials and a speedometer that went 'rrrrrrRRRRrrrrrRRRRrrrrr' as it spun up.
I remember the reviews of the Omni GLH. "Make sure you have a firm grip on the wheel while turning." That sucker had torque steer like crazy with all the HP being delivered to the front wheels. It was a fun toy, but could do scary things.
April 30th, 2019 at 10:31 PM ^
I got my 1986 GT used in Fall 1989 when I was at Michigan. My roommate and I drove around for an hour amazed at how fast it was. It had 200 hp which is probably less than the average crossover these days...…..
I think the Camaro is the most technologically advanced and best performer. Challenger offers the great temptation of pure, raw power. Mustang may be the best all around. So, tough choice. But I'll take the Camaro.
I'd go with the Mustang Bullitt. The nostalgia factor does it for me. Steve McQueen was a cool dude. I'd like to be a cool dude too in this iconic car.
I really like the Challenger when it came out, but they've really done nothing to tweak it's looks and it is based on an old platform. Mustang has evolved and the current model looks very nice.
If modern muscle doesn't imply "affordable for the masses", I think I could make a case for the BMW M5 or M2 Competition. They are highly evolved muscle cars. I almost bought an M2. Very fun to drive.
There was a great article in one of the car mags where they did a competition between a GT350 and an M3. GT350 won but they were very, very close. The GT350 was cheaper though.
ZL1 Camaro
I've driven at least one version of each and, for my zero imagined dollars, I'd go with the Mustang first, then the Camaro, then the Challenger.
3. The Challenger was super fun and fast, but that thing is also huge - it has about 10" in length on the Mustang and Camaro. I'm a fan of lighter, shorter, and more nimble cars. The Challenger was not it for me.
2. The Camaro has a good look - although the front end on the most redesign is fugly. However, it's pretty claustrophobic and has terrible sightlines. I wouldn't call the sightlines in any of these cars particularly good, but the Camaro's was particularly bad.
Sidenote: Saw an 80's IROC Z Camaro the other day. I forgot how much I liked that body style.
1. The Mustang wins it for me. I think it's the best execution of the retro design, is the most liveable day-to-day, and handles most closely to the way I want a car to handle. EDIT: Oh yeah, Bullitt for me, also.
I want what doesn't exist now. The Chevy SS type. A GM sedan with a NA V8. There were a million of them when I was young and they are all gone. I know half of the sedans I remember were technically coupes. But when your front door is 6 foot long, well, it's a back door too.
And no a Dodge Charger wouldn't suffice. If I wanted a 25 year old Mercedes derivative I'd buy a 25 year old Mercedes instead.
I get it. I do. But those old cars, while they look amazing and sound fantastic just aren't as good as the new ones.
A new Charger with a 392 will destroy nearly any old muscle car in any category you can mention. Heck, so does the 'average' Hemi.
A Taurus SHO could take on my Uncle's old 440 six pack.
I'd love one of those cars for fun, and for the artistry of their build. But to drive? I'll take something new any day.
Just my $0.02
No, you are right. The average Camry of today probably could outdrag my old Bel Air with its early 70s 454. But can you imagine what a modern ATS/Camaro platform with a Chevy V8 and 4 doors you could see out of would feel like?
That's what I want.
Does the CTS-V count? I've always loved the way they look and it's hard to beat 640 horses.
Charger Hellcat for me. All the power of the Challenger but a much more livable car day-to-day.
And, in my opinion, Kudo's to Dodge for taking an ANCIENT design and making it not only palatable with a nice interior but drop dead gorgeous.
There's a choice other than a Mustang?
I've had all three as rentals. Cannot see shit out of the rear of the Camaro. The Challenger is only slightly better. LOVED the Mustang (a convertible) except for the interior. Felt cheap and too many buttons in places which didn't make sense.
I'm too cheap. Anyone wanna go the sporty compact sedan analysis? I'm looking for a cheap, sporty, compact/midsized sedan for under $25k. I currently have a 2017 Honda Civic Sport Hatchback on a lease. It comes with a 1.6 L turbo 180 hp engine. It's has OK pickup, but nothing special. But, it's really sharp looking with the dual exhaust in the middle of car, sporty tires and rims, a body kit, etc. I may give the new 2020 Hyundai Elantra Sport a try as it's pretty sporty, comes with 201 hp 1.6 L turbo engine, and is under $25k. I really like the Toyota Camry XSE V6 and Honda Accord Sport 2.0T, but I'm not sure I wanna fork out an additional $10k for them.
Biased, but...
Add the Golf to your list, and the new Mazda 3. both are pretty great. If you want more power look for a used GTI. The MK7 is great.