OT: NY Times Investigation on Athlete Preference at FSU
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/sports/ncaafootball/florida-state-fo…
I read the whole thing, hoping to come away with a holier-than-thou enhanced hatred of FSU after last year. Sadly, I came away thinking: "I'd bet my life something similar to this happens at every major D1 program in the country, except Stanford." The treatment of the professor's assistant was a bit over the top, but other than that, I just get the sense that so, so much is done everywhere to keep kids eligible who frankly have no business being in a rigorous academic environment. And no matter what is done, it will probably always be this way.
Have I grown cynical and depressing?
Sincerely,
Anxious in Ann Arbor
September 1st, 2017 at 1:16 PM ^
They don't go together.
They just don't.
/Rosen
September 1st, 2017 at 1:29 PM ^
Despite the flak Harbaugh has gotten for the Rome trip, etc, he's one of the few people trying to make the school experience for football players include more school and personal growth.
September 1st, 2017 at 1:37 PM ^
does NOT check out
That or we've found out Cardale Jones is a closet MGoBoard member...
September 1st, 2017 at 1:48 PM ^
Would it also surprise you that I tell most of my students not to go to college? :)
September 1st, 2017 at 1:55 PM ^
I fully understand college isn't for everyone (big fan of Mike Rowe and his foundation for skilled trades).
September 1st, 2017 at 1:59 PM ^
Because that's not your call and I am surprised that's not considered unprofessional.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:26 PM ^
Are you kidding me? Parents and kids ask me all the time for advice on that stuff.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:54 PM ^
No no no.
How are we going to keep fueling the higher education industrial complex if teachers aren't telling students that they are failures if they don't go to college?
September 1st, 2017 at 8:07 PM ^
Exactly.
September 1st, 2017 at 9:16 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 1:22 PM ^
We should use them to test your theory on floating
September 1st, 2017 at 1:31 PM ^
This stuff happens at community colleges. One of my long time friends is a professor at a michigan community college (I won't say which) and in his previous position as a teacher at another community college was pressured to give a basketball player a C so he could remain eligible. This basketball player rarely turned in any work and rarely attended class. He initially stuck by his guns and said the player would get the grade he earned, but then a higher up in his department called him in for private meeting and my buddy said "f*ck it" it isn't worth jeopardizing my career over this and changed the grade to a C.
So if that kind of stuff happens for community college basketball you know damn well it is happenning for D1 athletics.
In the realm of a cool starry bra story: my sister initially had freshman english with Mitch McGary in her section. He said he was majoring in basketball for what thats worth. But one day after they had gotten their first graded assignments back a woman stayed after class with the GSI and Mitch. All of a sudden McGary was no longer in my sister's English section. Now this is totally my conjecture but I imagine that they had a conversation along the lines of this:
Woman: so long as Mitch shows up to class and turns in all his work you will give him a passing grade right?
GSI: I'll give him the grade his work reflects
Woman: Ok, we'll find a more compliant GSI and move him into that section. Or find him a different class that we are sure he can pass.
Honestly, I love Michigan football with a passion but after hearing stories like this I wonder if maybe the Ivy League has it right when it comes to athletics. I'm all for granting athletic scholarships but it shouldn't be a way to get kids into school that have no business being there. Too bad money corrupts everything.
September 1st, 2017 at 1:54 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 9:22 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 1:58 PM ^
Knew a guy who was a grad student at MSU and had Bubba Smith in his section. Bubba failed the class. My friend was going to fail him, but was told "you don't fail Bubba Smith" by his bosses.
My freshman year a two highly recruited basketball players were on my hall. One of them went around having different people write parts of his English 125 essay. When I got it there was seven paragraphs each in a different handwritting. Kudos to Michigan students for not wanting to cheat more than one paragraph.
There are a lot of scholar athletes out there, but when you're elite, you don't have to go to class. It's sad because it cheats the kid more than anyone.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:33 PM ^
Some of the elite athletes choose to do something with the opportunity.
I was at UM during the Fab Five era. Used to see Juwan Howard in the B-School library at night at least once a week as he was taking a business communication class. Also believe he made a promise to his grandma to get his degree which he did even after leaving early for the NBA. Can't say the same for the other 4 though...
September 1st, 2017 at 3:59 PM ^
To be fair to at least two of the other four, it's not like they needed the education. Chris Webber and Jalen Rose were/are extremely talented people who were always going to be rich based on talents that they weren't going to learn in a classroom. While I think it's a good idea for kids that are going to become millionaires at the age of 20 to have some classes to teach the basics of personal finance and such (I believe that was Trey Burke's complaint, if I remember correctly), I'm not sure those types are truly benefitting from being forced into 2-3 years of a full course load.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:51 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 2:56 PM ^
So people are naive to think that it doesn't happen at every college across the country.
September 1st, 2017 at 3:12 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 3:53 PM ^
Damn. That is a passive agressive way of letting a guy know that you know he cheated.
September 1st, 2017 at 3:54 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 1:26 PM ^
even though this word gets used frequently to describe academics, it really does not apply in nearly all instances.
September 1st, 2017 at 1:31 PM ^
What always disturbs me the most about these stories (and yes, I also believe some version of this happens almost everywhere) is the cutting corners, and unfair breaks, which simply reinforces a sense of entitlement and encourages bad behavior in life.
I think the student-athletes would be much better off in the long run if they could take courses that were at a level suitable for them and would prepare them for life after sports.
A college may feel too prestigious to offer what is the equivalent of a middle-school English course. But if that is the right level for a student-athlete, it would be a meaningful accomplishment to succesfully complete the course. (By actually doing the work, passing the exams, etc.)
Many high schools have a "college prep" track and a middle or lower track. The lower track is not about cutting corners, it's about aligning the curriculum with the ability of the students. I guess I am suggesting something like this might work even at big name schools.
This is far too complex a topic for a Friday afternoon right before Game 1, so I am going to return my thoughts to getting pumped up for tomorrow's action. Beat Florida!
September 1st, 2017 at 1:34 PM ^
I don't think it is that colleges feel to prestigious to offer "middle-school English". I think it is that they don't feel it is their job to remediate. IMO If a kid needs to take middle school level English classes he probably has no business being on a college campus.
September 1st, 2017 at 1:42 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 1:48 PM ^
I agree. It is one thing if a kid needs to take pre-calculus. It is a totally different animal if a kid needs to take "middle-school English".
September 1st, 2017 at 2:20 PM ^
At minimum, perhaps athletes should get credit for the huge amount of work they are doing within their sport. Obviously, only a few players will get an NFL contract but many will go on to careers in coaching high school, college or the pros. As student athletes, they put in a ton of time learning the playbook, film study, training, etc. all of which will be useful in their professional careers. What is that worth? 6 credits? 8 credits? Maybe then their academic workload could be manageable to take classes that are not watered down.
Nobody complains if a pianist or artist spends hours practicing or sculpting for their major yet cannot handle a calculus class. Athletics is an industry and there are career paths other than being a professional athlete, for which their college practices them.
Or let's dump the whole concept of student athlete and reverse the affiliation: They are a sports team first, hired by the university to increase the university's profile and school spirit , and in return, the university allows the athletes to take free classes and receive a salary.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:24 PM ^
Coaching in high school doesn't pay enough to be your primary income source. Most coaches are teachers or in the education industry in some way.
September 1st, 2017 at 5:32 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 8:46 PM ^
My high school football coach taught AP physics...
September 1st, 2017 at 2:15 PM ^
"I think the student-athletes would be much better off in the long run if they could take courses that were at a level suitable for them and would prepare them for life after sports."
This is where I criticize people who say if an athlete is serious about academics they would go to Michigan instead of Alabama or wherever. Elite athletes who are not elite students are probably better off going to an OSU/MSU/Florida than they would be going to a Northwestern Wisconsin or Michigan. If they don't fall into the "not showing up" trap, you can get a really good education at a second tier school if you try. I went to Michigan, a top 50 school for an MBA, Eastern for teachers ed and a community college for C+. The community college was actually the hardest of the schools (and I had Fortran at Michigan). the B school and Eastern were definitely a notch below Michigan, but I had professors with Phds from Ivy league schools instead of TA who were getting their PHd's from Michigan.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:23 PM ^
Arguably Hand chose Alabama over Michigan for academic reasons. Michigan wanted him to major in sports management, while Alabama was willing to let him major in what he wanted which was Civil Engineering. I can't blame the kid given how much STEM has been emphasiszed over the last few years. I do wonder if he is actually majoring in civil engineering though, it isn't listed on their roster page.
September 1st, 2017 at 1:36 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 1:44 PM ^
Except that this expectation is ridiculous given the gap between school systems throughout the US. In spite of the favoritism athletes receive, which is less than ideal in society as a whole, even athletes with preferential treatment who don't "make it" end up in a better situation on average if they don't go pro in their sport. If you tell kids who aren't as smart academically that they have to meet certain requirements, you create another hurdle for them on top of the many hurdles they are born into. I'm not saying this isn't an issue, but funding public schools, the rising cost of secondary education, and the shrinking middle class are all problems that if they got better, the issue with athlete favoritism would get better as well.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:04 PM ^
Philisophically speaking, the solution to our country's education woes isn't to dumb down college. You don't build a house starting with the roof.
The fact that athletes are basically getting free credits, by having online courses that they don't have to do any work for and the admin pressures teachers into giving them passing grades is ridiculous. I'm all for giving kids academic support through one on one tutoring, academic centers, etc. All the stuff that athletes already have access to. But giving away free credits is a practice that has to stop. Otherwise just admit that when these guys are in season they aren't "traditional students" and don't make them take any classes. But make sure that the classes they do take in the winter, spring, and summer are real and that they are actually progressing through the course work.
September 1st, 2017 at 1:46 PM ^
Seems as if schools basically fall into two buckets:
- Laughable admissions (2.5 GPA min) and very little pressure to succeed in the classroom, which only leads to cheating and teachers turning a blind eye. This is the majority of the SEC, FSU, Clemson, and a lot of other schools not worth mentioning. They openly talk about how school doesn't matter to each other--see Last Chance U--and only go to school to play football.
- Admissions standards set high enough that the school can rest easy knowing players can at least handle easy, general-studies types of course loads. They also dump huge amounts of money into academic advisors, tutors, and facilities dedicated to student athletes, making it difficult to fail. This is Michigan, Northwestern, and basically any school with legitimate admissions. Often times these players still only care about the NFL; at least they're held to a standard that would still see them learn something and get a degree.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:13 PM ^
Michigan and Northwestern/Stanford aren't the same when it comes to admissions.
If Michigan wants a player bad enough they will get that player in with the NCAA minimum requirements. What seperates Michigan from the SEC is that Michigan won't let every football player in at minimum standards. As I've had it explained to me the admissions people enforce an average on UM coaches. So you can have kids at the NCAA minimums so long as you get enough kids to raise the average to meet the admissions people's standards. Which is why you see a few 3 star recruits each class with high academic scores that nobody gets excited about.
My wife is friends with some coaches at stanford and they say that recruiting is incredibly hard because Stanford admissions won't automatically accept a kid because you offered a scholarship. All their kids have to get admitted on their own merits. It makes it very hard because you don't know if a freshman or sophmore is going to end up with the grades and test scores to be admitted.
September 1st, 2017 at 3:19 PM ^
Interesting. Great insight.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:06 PM ^
Why can't we just let these kids major in sports the same way other kids major in music/drama/art? Make them take basic english, calculus, etc. as part of the curriculum, but then let them focus on sports-related classes and earn course credits for games, practices, and team meetings. Many of these kids will go on to have careers as coaches, assistant coaches, scouts and trainers anyway, if not professional players. We already have high schools like IMG Acedemy where sports are the primary focus. Let's stop kidding ourselves and just make this an option at the collegiate level. Not everyone will choose it as a major but many will. If you this this is a bad idea, then explain to me the distinction between music/drama/art versus sports such that it makes sense to allow kids to major in the former but not the latter, because I've never been able to come up with a good reason.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:06 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 2:16 PM ^
One could make the argument that majoring in Kinesiology, sports management, or general studies is majoring in sports...
September 1st, 2017 at 2:25 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 2:51 PM ^
One challenge I see with it is that college majors have to be available for any student to take. What if jack and jill decide they want to major in football at UM? Will they be able to attend team meetings, lifting sessions, practices, etc. even if they weren't recruited? You can't have classes that only athletes are allowed to take.
And if you reclassify them as "employees" it kind of ruins the pageantry in my mind. What football in America needs is a juniors system like canadian hockey has. But the NFL isn't going to invest in a juniors developmental system when they can get it for free from the NCAA.
September 1st, 2017 at 5:36 PM ^
September 1st, 2017 at 2:41 PM ^
But they don't earn college credit for all the time they spend over four years practicing, watching film, learning different concepts, learning how to coach the younger players who come behind them, and playing in games, etc. I think all of that should count towards college credit.
September 1st, 2017 at 3:04 PM ^
Given that sports is their life, design curricula that will help them (and which won't require fraud in order to succeed). There are players that can, and do, handle the normal academic workload. Others who have different abilities should be given the option of taking classes that will help them achieve future career goals. Business basics, sports marketing, money management, sports and ethics, health/nutrition, sports in pop culture, also how about giving credit for volunteer hours - there are already classes where people get credit for volunteering at local hospitals, nursing homes etc.
Although, the one distinction I'd draw is that music students also tend to do well academically (certainly not always) so it's less of an issue. Art and drama I'm not sure. Overall I really like your ideas.
September 1st, 2017 at 3:47 PM ^
Wrote a diary on this very topic back in May:
http://mgoblog.com/diaries/way-forward-ii
Seems germane to the topic at hand. TLDR: it's possible to make an analogous degree but you have to get creative. Stats, business, psychology, education.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:27 PM ^
the problem is the hypocrisy. stop pretending these amateur athletes are "students". most wouldn't have been accepted if they weren't athletes and they cumulatively bring in almost a billion dollars per year for the NCAA. They are given a pass by administrators, professors, and often law enforcement. if we just treated them like University Football Apprenticeships, a lot of the perverse incentives go away
September 1st, 2017 at 2:23 PM ^
Universities have becoming a breeding ground for INTOLERANCE and Bullying, group think and "Safe Spaces" ..Love the sports but a education? meh...noty sure about that any more..little relevance to th real world..seems like a big waste of money these days..