OT: Nick Ward Declares for NBA, Won't Return
See that staredown in the banner? It's going to have to continue next season in another league. LINK.
Winston will stay for senior year
https://twitter.com/mattcharboneau/status/1119336805315358725
I know we knew Winston staying was already happening....but I just don't get it and damn if it isn't frustrating. I think myself and many others here just need to get over the fact that Izzo just handles this whole thing differently than Coach B. Coach B is looking out for the player, Izzo is looking out for himself/the program. Time to just accept that and expect MSU players to come back 9 times out of 10, even to their detriment.
I mean, Simpson is coming back too... The issue is we've had some guys that are both skilled and prototypically athletic. Winston is skilled but not super athletic. Most of MSU's guys that have been ready to go have gone to the NBA.
I mean, looking at this year as an example, I'd say Tillman has quite a bit more potential / is more ready for the NBA than Poole is and he has a young kid (I only bring this up because it was a criterion folks kept giving time and time again about Higdon and his daughter). The other obvious example is Bridges.
And sure, Simpson is coming back too and for his defense and mastery of Beilein's system, that's obviously awesome but obviously, offensively, Simpson and Winston are lightyears apart.
Bridges isn't really an example there. Izzo actually told Bridges he should go pro, but Bridges wanted to come back. As for Tillman, he could maybe get drafted this year, but if he comes back and shows a consistent jump shot, he could maybe move into the first round and get himself significantly more money. He's not a sure NBA player right now and can improve his chances with another year.
Neither is Poole. In fact, he's more likely not to get drafted at all than he is to ever see a minute in the NBA. Izzo's guys stay a head scratching amount of times. That's a fact.
Izzo's guys do stay a head-scratching amount, but it probably has to do with two of his best NBA players in the past decade: Green and Valentine. Both were four year guys that could have been drafted as juniors, yet improbably improved their stock as seniors.
You could even throw in Bryn Forbes who wasn't at all on NBA rosters after his junior year, came back and had a great senior season and is still in the league.
Their stories can be sold even if it's not at all the norm overall for guys to improve so much later in their college careers.
I also think people are way off on the idea that Izzo only cares about himself and not his players. If that were the case, don't you think we'd hear more of his guys speak about regrets at MSU? Yet they're all overwhelmingly positive.
Contrast that to guys like Trey Burke that bad mouth Michigan after they leave (he said Michigan didn't prepare him for the pros).
Don't get me wrong, Tom Izzo is a horrible, rape enabling person. But he is that way because he puts his program above all else and that means his players above all else (to the point of protecting them against the law). A lot of programs talk about having a "family" culture. The Spartans have that and their players love him for it (right down to handling criminal activity internally instead of doing what a paid employee of the state should legally and ethically do).
I believe that he truly does love his players as a father figure and wants what's best for them, which is completely inappropriate for his position but goes a long way towards recruiting and player loyalty.
- Bridges probably hurt his draft status a few notches by coming back. He lost millions by not going pro when he first had the chance.
It's true he didn't really help his draft stock, but that's not really relevant. The post was about Izzo advising his players, and he told Bridges he should go pro after year 1.
April 19th, 2019 at 11:09 PM ^
From my understanding, he wasn't coming back to earn more money, it was to win a nation championship.
They obviously failed miserably at that goal, but having a net loss by coming back was implied when he decided to return. It's not as if he was unaware that was going to happen
That’s likely true for the majority of second rounders yet you’ll likely see two or three Michigan players in the second or later. Ugh.
They both have had 9 players drafted over last 10 years, but Beilein has had 7 first rounders vs Izzo's 5 over the last 10 years. Izzo had 4 seniors that were drafted (2 first and 2 second). I believe Caris Lavert was the only player to stay through his senior year.
I'm not sure what it means with a small sample, but Izzo has kept his drafted players longer while Beilein has gotten his guys drafted into 1st round more consistently. Very few one and done players for both coaches. (first for Beilein will be year Iggy who is not considered in these numbers) (Izzo had Jackson and Davis).
Jordan Poole has significantly more upside in the nba than Tillman unless Tillman gets a lot more athletic because he’d get toasted guarding 4s in the nba and doesn’t have the size to be a center.
Poole is also likely making a poor decision because it’s relatively clear he and the coaches clashed this year
Comparing Simpson and Winston is kinda stupid imo. Winston is the B1G PoY can score from basically anywhere and is an elite passer. Simpson is good for our team, but comparing them in terms of NBA readiness is comparing apples to oranges
It's not as crazy a juxtaposition as one might think. Both have gaping holes (shooting/scoring for Simpson, defense for Winston) and overall physical (both undersized) and athletic limitations that greatly reduce their pro potential. Obviously Winston has a better shot, but both would be longshots to carve out lengthy pro careers.
April 19th, 2019 at 10:13 PM ^
Simpson has a hook shot; Winston does not.
ummm except that Winston eats Simpson for breakfast when we play them, hardly an even trade off
What player doesn't want to play for a coach who will cover up everything for you, including gang rapes?
One who realizes that $5,000,000 a year covers up a lot of shit too.
They stopped requiring algebra. And presumably math in general.
It would be crazy for Ward to return. Would he even start? Tillman is a better player and Izzo doesn't like playing them together. Good luck to him. He has some skill, even if not NBA level.
No, he wouldn't start. This is a setback... for us. Tillman is clearly the better player and MSU played much better with him on the floor. There is no reason for that not to continue; Ward is better off giving the draft a shot, even if he winds up in the G League, than getting backup minutes to Tillman where he is a clear downgrade.
EDIT: BTW, Tillman's emergence is another clear piece of disheartening evidence of the quality job Izzo did in coaching his team this year. Ward got hurt, Tillman was an upgrade, and Ward never got back into the starting lineup. Contrast with Jaren Jackson sitting on the bench against Syracuse for an idea of how Izzo changed his style. Now, if only he'd keep guys out of games for committing sexual assault.
You lost me as a setback for us. How is that a setback for Michigan? Either way this ultimately does not readily affect our team.
April 19th, 2019 at 11:12 PM ^
I really don't see how this is a setback for us.
Moe was a massive matchup problem for MSU, specifically Ward. Wagner is long gone now.
I'd much rather face Kithier than Ward, as Ward is a much better player than him
April 20th, 2019 at 12:51 PM ^
I am not going to give Izzo a ton of credit for waiting until Ward got hurt to see the value in Tillman starting. The fact he didn't change back to Ward when he was healthy is the same reason he didn't use Tillman before: he's a creature of habit and won't change up his lineup unless he has to.
Izzo did a good job coaching this team, but waiting until basically the last 6 games of the year to put out his best lineup isn't it.
Ummm it took an injury to Ward for Izzo to realize Tillman deserved those minutes. That’s not good coaching that’s luck.
Ward getting hurt was the best thing that happened to Sparty.
Both Tillman and Wrd started last year.
What you just said definitely does not apply to Ward leaving and Winston staying. Neither of these guys are NBA talents.
If anything, this goes against your assertion. Nick Ward is a G leaguer or over seas talent and he's leaving early
Would he be leaving early if Izzo needed him though?
Winston had an All-American season and couldn't crack any NBA mock drafts. That should say something to people.
It still isn't clear to me why that is. He's one of the best pgs in the country. His turnover issues are more decision making than a bad handle. He isn't terribly unathletic or short.
Not quick enough to make up for his lack of athleticism. From what I’ve seen he struggles with creating his own shot. Those driving lanes available in college aren’t there in the pros. He’s better in transition than the half court. Need to be solid at both to be a contributing NBA talent. He is fringe at best and after the year he had to not even be mentioned in the draft is a big deal. Kid was all over the tv in March and nothing draft wise happened for him.
Winston is extremely crafty, but even at this level, I'm not sure people notice how hard he has to work to get to his spots and score. Those athletic limitations you referenced would be greatly magnified at the next level, and this is before you get to his largely nonexistent defense.
Right- he actually secretly sucks, just no one knows it.
April 20th, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
I agree. Winston is a marvelous college player but not close to NBA talent. He starts his outside shot at waist level and will struggle to get a shot off in the NBA. He does not have elite quickness to compensate for that either. He needs to try to entirely remake his jump shot.
LilPenny: This^ Everybody is salty about him staying when nobody has talked about him going pro or getting drafted. This isn’t even close to a discussion of Izzo convincing a kid to stay.
This... As others have said he struggles to make his own shot.. and can any of you see his style of running into the defensive player and waiting for the foul to work in the NBA?
I'm gathering that folks are disagreeing with my take above. I'm really just trying to say that Coach B and Izzo handle the process of folks putting their name in the NBA differently. I think Coach B's is the right way, I really do. But it's the frustrating way, as a fan for sure. Izzo's way seems to be a bit selfish to me but as a fan, I can see how players coming back, even when they should go, is a bonus. That's really all I was trying to say. Hope folks didn't take this as me taking a dig at Coach B at all. I think he's been a miracle worker and brought this program back from death's door.
I don't even know if Beilein and Izzo really approach it differently, though. Beilein has said he wants a system like baseball has where you go pro out of high school or stay 3 years in college, and has also said that if you declare for the draft the assumption is you're going pro. It's not a "go check it out" type of deal. If you declare, the goal is to go pro. Beilein will recruit to replace you. If you decide to come back, that's great.
Two years ago, I was floored by Bridges coming back, and I assumed the same thing many people here assume (Izzo pushes kids to come back). But everything about that situation looks like Miles went against Izzo's advice to come back. Apparently Izzo pushed him to leave even after Bridges said he was thinking about coming back. And he also said he was pushing Ward and Winston to declare.
I don't know. There is definitely an element about the two programs that is different when it relates to kids returning to school, but I don't know if it has to do with the coaches telling the kids what to do. I need some evidence besides the act of a kid returning to school
I'm not saying it isn't true though. I just need some evidence.
I hear you. There's certainly something different when it comes to the programs and this topic. I'd be curious if you have a guess if it isn't what the coaches are saying, what it might be.
April 20th, 2019 at 10:20 AM ^
Izzo said in a press conference that he doesn’t like players going through the draft process just to go through it. It can be understood that Izzo wants you to either declare or stay, but he is not a fan of kids going through the process and coming back to school. So he absolutely has a different approach than coach B.
April 20th, 2019 at 10:50 AM ^
That's not true actually. He actually recommended that Winston and Ward go through the process to get feedback. He said in this article (and others quoted him as well) that Winston had some unfinished business and Ward probably wanted to leave, but he recommended that both test the waters and get feedback.
April 20th, 2019 at 12:44 PM ^
It is actually true because he said it. He can tell kids to go through the process but not like them doing it. It is extremely disingenuous of a coach to tell someone to go through the process, then state publicly that you “have some business to take care of.” That is Izzo’s way of saying he cares about kids getting to the NBA but also not-so-subtly telling them he wants them to stay at school so he has a better team. It’s talking out both sides of your mouth.
And since Ward was flirting with the idea of leaving last year, Izzo loses nothing telling him to check out the draft process because in his own words, he probably wanted to leave anyway.
I think the comment about Winston having some unfinished business was referring to Winston's feelings, not just Izzo's. He was saying that Winston felt that he had some unfinished business, while Ward wanted to go pro. As for "just going through the process", I think his problem would be if a guy knew he was going to come back but went through the draft process anyway. I think he would prefer that guys who have already decided to stay skip the process. He recommended that Winston go through the process because he actually thought Winston should look into going pro after this year. However, Winston decided that he wanted to come back and try to win a championship and improve his body, which is why he's not even testing the waters. Izzo certainly isn't opposed to guys testing the waters and coming back, he just wants them to actually be thinking about going pro if they're going to go through the process. Personally I don't think it's a problem if guys go into the process knowing they want to come back, but that's just my guess as to what Izzo's feelings are. Obviously I can't say for sure.
Yeah, Beilein has stated that if youre declaring, that's the goal. It's not "go check it out". If you declare, we're planning our future without you
That's why people like Livers, Teske, and Simpson didn't declare. There's no point in them declaring because they know they're coming back.
April 20th, 2019 at 11:56 AM ^
I don't think Beilein encourages kids to "just go through it" either. He said if you declare, your goal is to go pro
MSU lost two guys early last year. Guys leave when they can.
What does seem to help Izzo is he sometimes gets these guys with limited pro prospects who just keep coming back and playing well. Appling is a great example; good college player, no chance as a top flight NBA, so he sticks around.
It happens. UM will have to compensate.
He's a great college player, but yeah, where was he gonna go if he left MSU?