OT: NBA Play in game structure and general rant
The NBA is beginning their playoffs, with the “play-in” games taking place.
I’m no fan of the NBA - particularly because of how their approach to drafting has impacted college hoops. My preference would be a choice for high school players - 1) enter the NBA directly and make a team’s roster or play G League, or 2) commit to two years at the college level.
The play in games appear to be structured to do a couple of things. First, have more teams compete for the playoffs - which creates a greater degree of excitement as the regular 82 game season ends. And, by making four more teams compete with n a one game playoff - to draw more eyes on them.
it appears the one game “play-in” sets up the 7 vs 8, and 9 vs 10 in each conference. This doesn’t make sense to me. I think the matchups should be 7 vs 10 and 8 vs 9 to provide a bit more equity for the regular season record.
I understand the current structure, as I understand it - favors the 1 and 2 seeds - since the one seeds is guaranteed to play the 9 /10 winner, while the two seed plays the 7 / 8 winner.
It doesn’t matter to me, since the odds are very low that I’ll watch any NBA playoff game.
Any thoughts?
A glance at the 7-10 teams shows roughly the same nearly .500 record, so changing to 7 vs. 10 and 8 vs. 9 probably doesn't change much.
I do think the NBA has copied some of the drama of college playoffs.
Otherwise, I don't much care.
But when the Pistons get in next year . . . (I thought people might like a joke to start their day).
OP is incorrect in their understanding of the play in structure.
Which is not surprising, since they mention they aren't a fan of the NBA and won't be watching despite wanting to rant about it.
Yeah, this is very much a "I hate this thing because I hate the NBA because reasons" post.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
Exactly. These are the types of posts that drive me insane.
"I dont like the movie the Godfather and I especially hate Godfather III. Now, I'll admit I've never actually watched the Godfather or any of the sequels but it appears Godfather II was released before Godfather I which makes no sense. A better approach would be to release Godfather I first, then Godfather II and finally Godfather III instead of mixing up the order. But again, I've never watched any of the movies because candidly I dont like Italians and these movies appear to make Italians super heros who can fly and save entire cities and they're clearly not."
April 13th, 2023 at 11:35 AM ^
"It's an opportunity to rant I couldn't refuse."
April 13th, 2023 at 11:50 AM ^
And the Dutch Mafia doesn't exist.
April 13th, 2023 at 12:51 PM ^
FWIW - I love a couple of The Godfather movies - 1 and 2, specifically. I've watched 3 - but, it just isn't the same - or, as strong of a story, IMO.
April 13th, 2023 at 12:59 PM ^
I'm not sure the board is ready for such a controversial opinion.
But when the Pistons get in next year . . . (I thought people might like a joke to start their day).
It's not entirely out of the question. Next year the team should get back Cade Cunningham, add a top 5 draft pick, probably get something in the free-agent market, and may actually try to win every night (as opposed to the tankfests of recent years). That could be enough to finish in the top 10 in the East.
You're right. I'm just stuck in Detroit-teams-suck mode since . . . .
That isn't quite how the play in structure works.
The winner of the 7/8 game is in the playoffs.
The loser of the 9/10 game is out.
Then, the loser of the 7/8 plays the winner of the 9/10 for the final playoff spot.
Then, the best seeded remaining team plays the 2 and the worst seeded surviving team plays the 1.
My understanding of the point of this, which I think is cool, is that if you come in 7th or 8th, you get two shots to earn your spot. If you come in 9th or 10th, you need to win two in a row to make it.
I like this structure. It's well thought out and adds excitement to the early playoffs and lower seeded teams.
April 13th, 2023 at 12:41 PM ^
Careful, a lot of people take offense to well thought out things. You trying to call them stupid or something?
Excellent explanation!
April 13th, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
You almost have it Kilgore, but it's not the best remaining seed that gets the 7. The winner of the 7/8 game gets the 7. The winner of the game between the loser of the 7/8 and the winner of the 9/10 gets the 8
April 13th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
Exactly
OP just doesn’t like the NBA.
One of the teams the 7th or 8th seed Will be guaranteed to be in the playoffs. Which makes sense
The loser of the 7-8 match up needs to win 1 of 2 games to get the 8 seed
The 9th and 10th seeds need to win two consecutive games in order to make the playoffs
It lends interest to the late regular season.
At some point a play-in team is going to make the NBA finals - hell that might happen this year
You are not understanding the structure correctly.
The 7 and 8 seeds play. That winner earns the 7 seed.
The 9 and 10 seeds play, that winner advances to play the loser of 7/8. The winner if that game is the 8 seed.
7 and 8 seeds need only to win won play in game to earn a playoff seed. 9 and 10 teams need to win two.
One part of this that I'm not sure I quite have right. Say the 8 beats the 7, but then the 7 wins the next game against the 9/10 winner. Who is the 7 and who is the 8? Based on what I thought I was hearing on the broadcast last night, the original 7 still gets the 7 even though they lost to the 8. I may not have that right though.
Whoever wins the 7/8 game is the 7 seed.
If the 7 loses to the 8 and wins the final play in, they are now the 8.
This exact scenario may happen in the east, as Miami was 7 and lost to Atlanta and now has to beat Chicago to be the 8th seed.
That's not how the play in works. The winner of the 7/8 game gets the 7 seed. The loser plays the winner of the 9/10 game for the right to be the 8 seed. If you're in the 7/8 game, you get two chances to get into the playoffs.
This will probably never happen, but I think the NBA would benefit from cutting the amount of regular season games. If there were only 60-70 regular season games, some of the load management would dissipate. We also don't need 82 games to determine the best teams. It would also make each individual game that much more important, which means higher intensity and thus better basketball. Do away with divisions and just have everybody play everyone home and away.
While I would love a rule similar to baseball, the NBA has no incentive to change the one and done rule. College serves as a free minor league system for the NBA and they don't have to take on the risk of drafting an 18 year old. They get to see them in college or the G league for one year before drafting. Decreases the risk in drafting. Owners don't want more risk and current players don't want younger and cheaper players pushing them out.
April 13th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
Amen to cutting games. 50 would be perfect but 60 would still be a vast improvement in quality/excitement of regular season games. 82 is awful and yields too many back-to-backs with stars resting, and a longer end of season tank-a-thon for the crap teams.
I imagine Dallas would've preferred the season to end 30 games ago...those halcyon pre-Kyrie days. When will teams learn to stay away from this guy? WTF was Cuban smoking?
April 13th, 2023 at 12:11 PM ^
I can't believe I'm defending Kyrie but....
He wasn't really the main problem for Dallas' implosion. As in, he didn't crater the team because of his characteristic opening his third eye bullshit. He just wasn't the solution. He made their offense near elite, but it was already pretty good. The problem is that even a sane Kyrie is at best a mediocre defender, as is Luka Doncic; and the rest of the team was even worse after the trade.
April 13th, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^
I think 58 would be the perfect number. Everybody home and away. But that's probably too drastic of a reduction to even contemplate. If they keep divisions, 66 is the number for everybody home and away and an additional home and away for your division counterparts. No point in conferences in that format, however. And if no conferences, why do divisions?
you don't understand the structure.
- 7 plays 8...winner becomes the 7 seed, loser plays the winner of the 9 v 10
- 9 plays 10...loser is out, winner plays loser of 7 v 8
- loser of 7 v 8 plays winner of 9 v 10...winner is 8 seed, loser is out
So basically, to make the playoffs, the 7 & 8 seeds have 2 games to win 1. The 9 and 10 seeds need to win 2 in a row.
I think the above posters adequately described the correct structure of the 7-10 play-in format. I don't see any particular beef with it, it's really not that much different from the NCAA play in opportunity for some of those teams on the borderline.
And while I know the I-don't-care-for-the-NBA view is pretty pervasive around here (and it's one I used to hold for a number of years), I think you're missing out if you genuinely value watching high quality basketball. While it doesn't have the emotional connection that most of us have to watching Michigan basketball, the NBA game is so far superior to college in terms of athleticism and shot-making ability.
NBA PLAYOFF basketball is highly entertaining and is high quality basketball.
I find that regular season NBA is boring and, outside of maybe 10% of the games, means very little.
I enjoy the NBA and I'm not afraid to admit it. :ducks:
April 13th, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
You should, it's fun and despite what people say here, good basketball.
The overall talent in the league is amazing and while it does have a lot of issues at the moment, it's enjoyable to watch.
People here don't watch games and just parrot the same tired stuff about "defense, fundamentals, loyalty" and pine for the days of the Pistons beating teams 74-66.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
It was actually the 2004 Pistons and build up to that era that made me a big fan. The Billups/Wallace team was one of my all time favorite. Now I love prop betting, but I can't pick a game winner against the spread for shit.
I haven’t watched the NBA much at all this year.
That’s not because it’s somehow bad. I just don’t have time and energy for every sport. Some years I can plug in more, some years I can’t. It’s ok not to follow every sport intently without bagging on it.
I think a lot of people feel like they need to justify *why* they don’t pay attention to something. As if “I have limited free time and I’ve chosen to pay attention to something else” isn’t a good enough reason. Kind of a reverse FOMO.
Because the fundamentals/defense arguments are always brought up, and always by people who don’t actually watch the games. The level of play, the level of work and development by players, the level of defense… is *way* more intense than “back in the day.”
Yes, scoring is up from the era of the 2004 Pistons, a team we all love that played a brand of basketball that was considerably less attractive. That has changed because rules have changed and the understanding of efficient basketball has changed, too (look at 3-point volume!).
But people have been griping about “FUNDAMENTALS! DEFENSE!” for 30 years without regard to what’s actually happening on the court and it has generally been incorrect.
Side note: I see this a lot in Lebron/MJ arguments online. The most intense arguers are ones who don’t actually follow basketball closely. I’m a natural MJ guy, but some of the arguments against Lebron are made by people who clearly never actually watch him play. (An easy tell: some people think Lebron is a more selfish player while MJ was a better team guy. If you know anything about their games, you know what kind of argument that is.)
"Yes, scoring is up from the era of the 2004 Pistons, a team we all love that played a brand of basketball that was considerably less attractive."
Attractive is subjective. I'd guess your average guy who prefers old basketball actually finds it "more attractive".
April 13th, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
Agree. I thoroughly enjoy watching the NBA. Wish the stars would play more, but when they do, the product is really interesting and high quality. College basketball, on the other hand, is basically unwatchable for me. I think i watched roughly 10 Michigan games this year and legitimately not a single other college game until the final four. The quality of play is generally terrible. I don't recognize any of the players. It is boring.
The "I hate the NBA" take is absurd, imo.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
Are you talking about the high quality b-ball where the stars get to talk about 4-5 steps without dribbling
April 13th, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
if your biggest complaint is officiating, i'd love to hear your take on B10 refs!
April 13th, 2023 at 11:46 AM ^
> the NBA game is so far superior to college in terms of athleticism and shot-making ability.
That's the most boring part of basketball to me. I enjoy seeing teams executing high level strategies, there's only a handful of teams that do that, and some of those don't necessarily do great because they might not be the best athletes and shot makers.
Usually conference finals is when I start watching, those final four teams are almost always executing at a very high level.
Idk, yes it's cool watching people do crazy dunks, but growing up watching Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal and Shawn Kemp, there's not much that blows me away anymore in that respect.
And make more money. The play in is designed to make more money for the league and players.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:38 AM ^
In your view, how much "more money" do you believe the NBA is making off of four additional games?
In the very broad sense that the NBA is a for-profit business and every action and activity is designed to "make more money", yes 1234 is more than 1230 games, and therefore "more money" is assured. But that's not the reason for the play-in. The reason for the play-in is to do what people have already mentioned on here. Create an NCAA-style one-and-done type atmosphere leading into the 2 month grind of the NBA playoffs. It's also an attempt to keep teams from tanking at the end of the season and have something for the 12-9th place teams to be fighting for at the end of the season. (PS it worked)
April 13th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
I don't think it quite prevented tanking. See Mavericks, Dallas.
April 14th, 2023 at 12:04 AM ^
And the main reason Dallas mini-tanked their way out of the play-in picture was to max their chances of keeping a top-10 protected pick. John Hollinger at The Athletic (former Grizzlies GM) often argues that the worst tanking isn’t for the best lottery odds, it’s for trying to finish at a spot in the standings where you’ll stay within the protected range of a pick you traded away. It was a logical move by Dallas, but a very non-competitive one. The league office probably put in a call to ‘Ol Cuban after that.
April 13th, 2023 at 12:41 PM ^
It's also an attempt to keep teams from tanking at the end of the season and have something for the 12-9th place teams to be fighting for at the end of the season.
Aside from Dallas, this was 100% true.
The last couple of weeks in the West were crazy. There were scenarios on second-to-last day of the season where teams could finish anywhere from the 5th seed to the 10th seed. It made for great drama.
Also, viewership of the Lakers/Wolves game was higher than all but a handful of regular-season games which indicates the popularity of this format (to some degree!)
I appreciate the clarification of the play-on structure.
To those who will watch / follow the playoffs … enjoy.
One tangential point. There are comments which note the quality of play at the NBA level - comparing it to college. I agree the professional level sports ALL reflect a higher quality of play than college. In football, the “window” a college QB must deliver the ball is far larger than in the NFL. The same is true in basketball. My perspective is - while both college football and basketball have undergone changes, college football seems to have advanced which raised the level of play - and, college hoops seems to have reverted - with its quality of play declining over the past few years.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
What about the quality of play is declining?
I think fan buy in is declining because it's essentially turned into FA every offseason. But I don't think the quality of play is actually declining. If anything, with a bunch of guys getting 5th years due to COVID, the overall talent is probably better top to bottom.
April 13th, 2023 at 12:59 PM ^
IMO, a lot. Turnovers, possessions, running set plays effectively, back door cuts, ball movement, movement off the ball, turnover assist ratios, alternate defenses - switching between man and zone, lack of fundamentals, etc.
Your point - about "older" players - fifth year particularly (with the CV impact) - reflected something about experience and player development. Four or five years - between 18 and 22 /23 - provides an opportunity for a lot of growth. And, the parity in college hoops - reflected in the NCAA - Illustrated that.
I think teams of "veterans" - third year players, or older - will continue to do well, and - I believe, outperform less experienced squads.
Lol. All you did was name terms with nothing but your subjective opinion they are worse.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:09 AM ^
In my opinion this is mostly due to the talent disparity between the two sports.
Look no further than both 1st round drafts. Count how many seasons the players played in college collectively. Sure there are 2 more NFL teams than NBA. But football players can't enter the draft until their 3rd year in college. Basketball players only need one year out prior to being drafted.
Look no further than this year. The top 9 projected NBA picks are either college freshmen, G League players, and a Frenchman.
Conversely the top 9 NFL projected picks have one RS Sophomore, 5 juniors, and 3 seniors.
April 14th, 2023 at 12:07 AM ^
Any decline in college hoops quality is solely attributable to the lack of John Beilein and Jay Wright coached teams
April 13th, 2023 at 10:00 AM ^
This is not how the play-in structure works at all, lol.
7v8 gets the 7 seed...the LOSER gets a home game against the 9v10 WINNER for the 8 seed.
You can still get 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5.
-----
It's awesome and leads to better games down the stretch AND the play-in games are great.
My ONLY beef with the structure is that I think there should be a "games ahead/behind" limit.
If the #7 team finishes the regular season 4 (or more) games ahead of the #8 seed...I don't think the #7 should have to play in a play-in game. The battle should be for the #8 seed only that year (unless the #9 isn't within 3.5 games of the #8).
This wouldn't have mattered this season, everyone was bunched up. But I do think they need to put a rule in before it happens and causes issues in the future.
If I play 82 games and finish 4 games ahead of the team behind me...that's enough. My spot should be secure.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
College basketball would really benefit from a college hockey draft and follow approach. It would make both the NBA and college basketball products better while allowing players to develop at a customized pace. Players could still get paid in the NIL era so they could still make money. The biggest issue is that players would have to wait for the second contract. That could be solved with a rule that allows players to pursue their second contract 6 years after high school, regardless of when they entered the NBA.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:09 AM ^
Just the opposite for me: NBA is more watchable and college hoops (outside rooting for Michigan) is not that interesting with diluted talent and players frequently switching teams, NIL, G league, etc.
The difference in the level of play between the NBA and the Big10 ( and most collegiate leagues) is huge and getting wider each year. I really like the new NBA playoff . Bulls- Raptors /Thunder- Pelican games were very entertaining.
April 13th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
A mandatory 2 years in college will lead to some ridiculously talented teams at Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, UNC, etc. I'm not sure that's what you want as a Michigan fan. They should just get rid of the 1 year rule. With NIL, there's money to be made with either path now. Let the athlete choose if they want to have classes and a (possibly brief) college experience along with their money.