OT-LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
LeBron might still have 5 years left of playing at the level he is right now. His game last night was another incredible display. Relevancy bias aside as I am 47 years old Lebron has the best combination of athleticisim and physichal dominance I have ever seen in person.
MJ had to get past the bad boy Pistons. He also had to play against Magic, Worthy and the Lakers as well as Larry, Parrish and McHale for the Celtics. Though no fault of his own Lebron never faced the level of competition MJ did. MJ had Pippen but MJ helped create Pippen I am not sure the same can be said for Dwayne Wade.
Defensively I will take MJ over LJ all day and this is where most people forget the dominance of MJ.
Interesting comparison here:
http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/j/lebron_james_vs_michael_jordan.htm
Watching MJ and now LeBron is special. The next 5 years will sway many opinion no doubt but it is highly unlikely LeBron plays AAA baseball and comes back for another Championship.
Scottie Pippen says the only player in the league with the mindset of MJ/Kobe is Westbrook. Thought that was interesting.
It's a different game today, so it's hard to compare. Disclaimer: I don't watch the NBA any more, but of course I see Lebron highlights like anyone who isn't living in a cave. He's amazing, but he's playing a very different game than MJ did and one that is more favorable to a dominant player. MJ practically had to fight his way to the basket.
I've always wondered if LeBron wouldn't have been even MORE dominant in the Jordan Era. First of all, his size would have been a bigger advantage (since there would have actually been contact). I fully believe the rumors that he was nearly 280 LBS the past few seasons (before slimming down this past offseason). If that is true, he would have out-weighed Bill Lambieer by 30 lbs. Further more, he would have been forced to use his post game alot more, and I think he would have been one hell of a point-forward (for proof, see these playoffs).
OK, you can hate the argument, but can you argue against it with anything but a one-sided hypothetical? How about putting MJ in today's game? Whoever he plays for, wins the championship, year in, year out. As others have pointed out, MJ was stopped by the Pistons early on, but he overcame that by adding a new dimension to his game - physicality. He grew bigger and tougher and still had his game.
I believe today's game is more favorable to a dominant player and that MJ was the most dominant player the league has ever seen.
and just add that It's more favorable to a dominant WING player. Also, I disagree that MJ would win EVERY title playing in today's NBA. For one, he could be on the Kings and not have a super-high quality roster that could win 50 games without him. Secondly, LeBron, Duncan, and Kobe would have had something to say about how many title he could win. Six in the past dozen years is doable, but I don't know that it is set in stone. Third: the most dominant player the league has ever seen was Bill Russell (though the comparison is a little unfair, since the league was much different then).
Laimbeer would have bitch slapped LBJ for the shit he pulls.
LJ is a beast and is the best of his generation, but he'll never be MJ. It was pure magic watching MJ play and I am extremely fortunate to have seen him play.
Plus no one camps for days to buy Lebron's shoes, let's get real here!
Andy, Love & Kyrie out. Lebron is somehow managing to drag this beat-up team of NY Knick cast-offs (yes, Mozgov was a Knick along with Shump & JR) plus Delly to within two games of a title and that's nothing short of incredible.
I'm extremely thankful he's back in Cleveland. At this time last year I was wondering if Kyrie would sign the extension and who our coach would be this year. We were coming off another horrible post-decision year and the only thing we really had to look forward to was yet another #1 pick in the draft and who we would take. Anthony Bennett was widly considered the worst #1 pick in NBA history, Deon Waiters just wanted to shoot and the team looked hopelessly lost.
So it doesnt matter to me who's considered #1. Without Lebron my Cavs were the Sacramento Kings East, irrelevant and going nowhere. With him we are now two games from a title and he's doing it almost single-handidly. Jordan never had to do that.
Shumpert, Mozgof, Smith and Delle have all had games where they were LeBron's "Robin." The biggest play in crunchtime was made by Delle, after Lebron gave up the ball late in the shot clock, when he pushed the lead back to four with a 3 point play.
Jordan always had Pippin with him. Pippin was a top 5 player at that time. If Lebron and the Cavs win this series, I have to consider this the best championship run of his career and cements it that he can do it by himself
I think it's a testament to LB he is going to do the same for his teammates (remember Irving last year in the playoffs? Didn't think so. He's your Pippen).
So while I think the initial feat LB has pulled off in the last couple of games has been hof worthy, mj is the BOAT.
To me LB is clearly passing the likes of Kobe and Duncan now. He is approaching Magic and Bird now. He pockets a ring ir two in Cleveland it's a debate.
Series ain't over yet though and he is still jacking up shots and making choices that his team's defense has so far allowed him to get away with. I am guessing this won't last much longer.
Lb does not have a pippen type. It that is where the differences end. Kerr, Armstrong or Paxon!? Jordan made those guys.
Those guys won 55 games and made the eastern conference finals without Jordan.
Do you think LBJ current supporting cast wins 55 games and makes the eastern conference finals without him? Really?
right now we're talking about 2 games. I dont think anyone is gonna say the Cavs current healthy roster would win 55 games. can they win this way in the finals? yes. would they win 50 games in the regualr season no.
Take LBJ off the cavs roster with a healthy Love and Kyrie, i think there a top 3 seed in the east.
Yes, Jordan had Pippen. He also had Steve Kerr, Bill Wennington, Bill Cartwright and BJ Armstrong. Those players were made because they played with MJ.
Also, I will disclose my bias that I hate the "backing down" offense that never gets called. I hated it with Shaq and I now hate it with LBJ. No doubt, he has developed into a great shooter but he still basically backs down and dislodges guys on half of his possessions. That's why the NBA has basically drifted off my radar.
Kerr's numbers were about the same on the Bulls without Jordan as with. Wennington was pretty much the same player wherever he was. So was Tony Kukoc (essentially an 11 points and 4 assists type player). BJ Armstong's best season was after he left Chicago and went to Golden State. Bill Cartwright was significantly better before Chicago than with Chicago, he was about a 17 ppg and 7 rpg type player when Chicago added him.
And lest we forget Dennis Rodman and Horace Grant, both great defenders and rebounders and great players to have as a third (or lower) scoring option.
I'm not ready to crown LeBron yet, but he's much closer than many Jordan diehards want to admit. Any talk of Jordan's supporting cast being anywhere near LeBron's from his Cleveland days is misguided. I'd argue Jordan's supporting cast was better than LeBron's in his Miami days (outside of Bosh, Wade, and Allen, LeBron's supporting cast in Miami was pretty awful; hence why essentially the same starting lineup mustered like the 20th best record in the league).
Well you make some good points but I was really not going by numbers but more the visual test. For example, Cartwright was pretty much on the downslide of his career when he joined the Bulls but became a decent player for the Bulls. Same for Wennington. And I think Kerr's Chicago numbers are significantly better than his others, despite playing with Tim Duncan.
Haslem in Miami was not awful. Also, Miami with Wade alone (not James or Bosch) was a playoff team and seen as a riser in the East.
If we want to just go by numbers than we can say JR Smith is a freaking all star since his numbers earlier in his career bear that out. His numbers are generally down from his Denver days. But I give LBJ credit that his presence has made JR Smith a tougher matchup.
Anyway, I think both of them made players better. I was a Pistons fans so I didn't root for MJ but I think he is clearly the more accomplished player at this point.
"I was really not going by numbers but more the visual test."
I'm concerned with stats. Mike had a better supporting cast but LBJ is getting a lot from his as well. Tristan Thompson has made himself a helluva lot of money these playoffs. After MJ and Pip, can you name me 3 better defenders than Tristan, Delle and Shumpert?
Hoarce Grant, Bill Cartwright, Dennis Rodman and Ron Harper were all known to be very good defensive players for the Bulls during Jordan's era.
Cartwright and H. Grant won rings together then Harper and Rodman won rings together.
So you're saying Jordan & Pippen are better than James??? You can't forget Pippen as your fourth great defender on those teams.
Pippen was named one of the 50 greatest players of all-time........ I wouldn't lump him in with the supporting cast. I'm talking about role players.
I think you just made a stronger argument as to why Lebron is doing well with lesser talent around him.
what I don't agree with is that LBJ is getting next to nothing from his supporting cast. Someone is stepping up damn near every game giving LeBron help. Last night, for example, T. Thompson had 10 pts, 13 reb......Delle 20 pts 5 reb 4 ast............J.R. Smith 10 pts 4 reb. That's good help.
It's not that James does it with no help. Unless you are Wilt Chamberlin and score 100 in a game, you always need help. The difference is consistency. This is an area the game is really different today vs. the 80's/90's. It was much more of a team game then.
You knew Ron Harper was going to give you at least 15 points, you knew Grant was going to give you at least 10 points & 8 boards, you knew Armstrong or Kerr were going to hit @ 3 three's in every game. You knew Cartright then Will Purdue then Luc Longley were going to give you 12 & 8. Yes, any one of them could go off for 20+ in a single game, but you also knew the minimum you would get from them almost every game.
Now, Delle(whatever) could just as likely not even score in the next game after going for 20 last night. Smith is just as likely to put up 30 as he is to put up 5 taking the same number of shots.
Inconsistency from the supporting cast puts a bigger strain on the star player. That is evidence in the number of shots James has had to take through the first three games so far. Yes, he is putting up 40 a game, but he is also taking 40 shots to get there. I doubt Jordan ever took 40 shots in a playoff game.
Agree Jordan was never asked to do this. However against a Golden State team that has lost it's way having never been this deep in the playoffs are you contending that MJ could not do the same?
As for LeBron coming back can you please explain this picture and how you gave up smoking...
1. Golden State has "lost it's way" thanks to LeBron IMO.
2. Never burned a jersey but I sure as Hell did throw a LOT of shit away. And yes, for the past four years I rooted like hell AGAINST Lebron & the Heat. I was pretty upset at the way he left and don't think I was alone.
3. I wish I had those biceps.
Jordan WAS asked to do this. And he didn't win squat. His first championship was far from his rookie season; he was a 7-year veteran by then. Chicago steadily added help -- Grant, Pippen, Jackson, Rodman, etc. -- throughout his career because he couldn't win it all by himself. By the time he was "willing" Chicago to something other than getting pummeled out of the playoffs by Detroit, Chicago was a 55-win playoff team without him.
Jordan was a great player, but GenX's compulsion with trying to exaggerate a legacy that needs no exaggeration is annoying.
They won championships before Rodman joined Chicago.
He's not the only one on the list. The point is they were adding help before Jordan won anything, added help when he started winning, and never stopped adding help. And given the Bulls were pushed to 6, 7 games in the playoffs despite this strategy, Jordan needed every bit of it.
Now if I ever have to explain such a simple, trivial, easy-to-understand point as this, I'm going to tap the keys on my keyboard slightly harder in frustration.
Well if your point is that Jordan didn't win it all as a rookie and they had to mold the team around him, then yes. But he got better as a player, it wasn't all due to added pieces.
I almost went blind this morning when I heard some jackass in a neighboring cubicle claim that LeBron was "arrogant" (his King James tattoo was his proof) and wasn't nearly as good as he said. Another person said, "yeah, he's a little better than average," and the Jackass agreed.
Even though Jackass #2 may have meant "a little better than the average star", I still couldn't believe it. Watching LeBron drag this team to a 2-1 advantage in the finals is proof that he's in the "club" of all-time players: Cousy, West, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Oscar, Kareem, MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and now LeBron. I feel like I might be missing a player or two, but that is the Pantheon.
You have some stupid coworkers.
I strongly disliked LeBron for a little while, but he is unquestionably the best player in the NBA. Nobody else has an argument at the moment. Certain guys may have better seasons (Currey, Harden, Durant....maybe), but LeBron is on his own level year in and year out.
If you were to create a team today to complete now and in future seasons, LeBron is the #1 pick every time.
You might want to ask to move your desk.
I doubt that stupid is contagious, by why take a chance?
for shitting out 45 points in OT to beat the pistons in 07(?)' I do have to say that I think that he is better than MJ.
This is dumb
The league is much more athletic now, so that's a nod to Lebron.
The old Jordan Rules would eat Lebron alive, nod to Jordan.
One on one, Lebron is a tougher match up due to the combination of size and skill set. Jordan is the best mental player ever.
Fact: LBJ creates more contact than he takes.
lets not forget traveling..
IMO the NBA has let that got waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far. 2 steps has turned into 4. id be curious when the last travel was called on a superstar in the NBA
and he had a supporting cast, unlike LJ. MJ's last year they won 57. The next without him, they won 55. Cleveland would be lucky to win 20 games without LJ.
Who are the other 8 players on the floor?
Weirdos......