Interesting podcast from Ant Wright on the Juwan Howard hire
Highlights:
Says he will be the biggest Juwan Howard supporter. "A great dude, a UM legend, did great things for the Heat, is lauded by everyone around him, and is rooting for him like no other. Hopes he kills it at Michigan." Juwan needs the fan support badly.
Says UM is a top 10 program currently. "As high as 7 as low as 9."
Thinks Beilein's success scared away a lot of people, as they didn't see it as a good buy in opportunity. If Juwan fails in 3-4 years thinks you could see some big names want the job.
Said Warde Manuel really let him down and that it was underwhelming to have the final candidates be a guy with 1 NCAA win and a guy with zero college or head coaching experience. "The first two shouldn't be a thing at UM. Ed Cooley should have no shot at this job. He used Michigan." Doesn't understand how you can go from Beilein who has coached at every level to a guy with none. "It was an emotional hire, it was nostalgic, I don't care who's endorsing it (Lebron, D-Wade), those are his boys." Nobody knows what his philosophy is, does he know? Is he going to play 3 out 2 in? Blockers and movers? "Who cares if NBA teams wanted him, NBA is about getting guys to play hard and managing egos." Said there are a ton of college coaches who can eat NBA coaches up alive x and o wise but the difference is one can manage egos and the other can't.
"You know whose happier than Michigan fans, the rest of the B1G. Tom Izzo is thrilled." Has a top 5 roster in the B1G returning, so he will be ok next year.
"A lot of people are talking about recruiting but these college coaches can scheme the heck out of things and make all americans look silly." Talent is good, but what you do with it is way more important.
If Juwan doesn't succeed don't point blame at Juwan, blame Warde Manuel for putting him in a situation he wasn't prepared for. "NCAA is a different game halves, quarters, the way timeouts are used, different shot clocks, different talent levels, guys can leave after one year. Stop relating the two." Said Warde "really botched it."
"Anyone wants to bring up Penny Hardaway label them a casual and keep it moving. They know nothing. Google bluff city legends. He's been on the AAU circuit for years. He's been doing his due diligence and put himself in the perfect position to recruit at a high level."
This was a big topic. "Don't you find it interesting how so many people are concerned about keeping Yaklich? If that's your main concern you picked the wrong person." It should not matter what he does if you have your guy. No matter who the assistants are he has to trust them. "Juwan Howard is a crazy smart dude but you can't play NBA ball college or you will get eaten alive. There are counters, there's a zone you have to counter that, there are so many things that have to be done on the fly and in preparation."
"This was very irresponsible of Warde Manuel. If Juwan Howard never went to Michigan he would not be the coach at Michigan right now. I could sing that in the hills. No head coaching experience, yes it matters. No recruiting experience, yes it matters. No scheming experience or time to work on his philosophy after trial and error. His trial and error is going to come at a top 10 program. What? I hope he succeeds, I'm rooting for him like crazy. I want him to succeed so bad. I'm excited to see where this goes and what happens."
New pod is up.. I talk Juwan Howard for just 30 minutes
— ᗩᑎT ᗯᖇIGᕼT (@ItsAntWright) May 22, 2019
Apple: https://t.co/2PdBZf3ws1
Spotify: https://t.co/CMWuq2GngS
Who gives a fuck. He’s the coach and will succeed or fail.
Anyone who has a problem with warde during this process is a miserable person with completely unrealistic expectations. Lol at Michigan being the number 7 job in the country. That’s an incredibly stupid take.
Name seven jobs that are, without question, better than Michigan. It's at least top ten, which means naming it #7 is not "incredibly stupid" as you say.
Kentucky, UNC, Kansas, Louisville, IU, MSU, Duke, Syracuse are viewed as being more blue blood than Michigan for sure.
UConn (if not for their shitty conference) would also be ahead of Michigan. UCLA as well if not for their braindead AD. Villanova just recently pushed ahead of us.
Florida is probably ahead of Michigan too or tied at the least. Maryland, Purdue and Illinois have great traditions too.
Idk what to think of UVA.
That puts us around the ~12-13ish mark, which is hell of a lot better from where it used to be just a decade ago.
Please stop with this "blue blood" talk - it has no bearing on any of this...UM is a top program right now - some of those other schools are not even close.
Not a single non Michigan fan would rank it 7. That is being delusional.
unc, kentucky, Kansas, duke, UCLA, Michigan State, Indiana, Louisville all clearly have superior basketball histories and brands than Michigan (and if history suddenly doesn’t matter I have some bad news for what everyone here thinks of our standing in college football).
Michigan isn’t even in the top 20 wins of all time. Other schools with arguments over Michigan include Syracuse, Villanova, UConn, Maryland, Purdue, nc state off the top of my head. How you rate those programs is probably more personal preference than anything real.
i dare anyone to find a list of the best basketball programs in the country that lists Michigan in the top 10 not from a Michigan fan, because I can find a shit ton that don’t.
Lol at since 2010. You got me, I meant ranking period not a small subset but touché
The last decade actually seems like the fairest barometer.
I wonder how many upvotes these responses would be getting if this logic was being applied to the football team.
Seeing Michigan fans dismiss things like history, fan support, and recruiting as barometers of a program is a fascinating turn of events. I had no idea so many of you would rank Michigan state football as a program over us.
You speak of small subsets but then claim that MSU has a better history than Michigan despite most of that history occurring under their current coach. Pre-Izzo, MSU basketball history was basically two years of Magic Johnson and no too much else.
Would you leave Clemson out of top two football programs now because of the last 100 years, 50, 25? No.
UM basketball has been a force for the past decade. Top 7, even. Leave tradition out.
UVA is up there. Syracuse is not in top 10 anymore. Louisville is not a top program, either, thanks to stripper gate.
There is a BIG difference between what Clemson is doing now and what Michigan has done under Beilein.
Clemson football has been absolutely dominant, making it to four CFB Playoffs, the NC three times, and have won the NC twice over a dynasty program. All in just five years time.
Michigan basketball, while very good over the past decade, has not won a single NC over 12 under Beilein. They haven't had close to the same kind of stretch Clemson football has.
I really don't think you can compare to the two at all.
You’re right, there is a huge difference. Michigan has been as clean as Trey’s block. Clemson... probably not so much.
So I guess that means any sane Head Coach would look at UNLV, Utah, Arizona, Georgia Tech, Georgetown, Arkansas, St. John's as a better landing spot to coach than UM........along with those schools you named above. This sucks, I guess we're not even a top 50 job right now all because everything is based on history.
I think plenty of people would argue Arizona and Georgetown as better basketball schools than Michigan and id bet Michigan would struggle to ever poach a good coach from either spot. The inflated sense of this basketball program is out of control. We can’t even consistently sell out our tiny shitty arena during a stretch where we were consistently a top 10-15 school nor could we out recruit schools like Villanova or Virginia let anything resembling a blue blood but sure, elite program now. Having a great coach doesn’t make you an elite program, we had a top 5 coach in beilein so got top 10 program results, we aren’t a top 10 program to anyone.
those schools would struggle to poach a coach from Michigan too. Both went through HC changes during Beilein's tenure and would have hired him in a heartbeat if they thought they could get him but they wouldn't have been able to.
The dangerous thing about considering a program strong based solely on one coach is that you aren't separating coach from program.
Arizona was Lute Olson. That's it so far. Not sure they have enough lasting institutional momentum from that era to conclude they have a good "program" per se.
Same as Uconn. Uconn was Jim Calhoun and that's it. They are not a program. They aren't even in a P5 conference anymore.
Kentucky, UNC and Kansas are really the only true blue bloods that have had sustained success over multiple coaches and multiple eras. Mayyyybe Louisville going from Denny Crum to Pitino but Mack will have to keep them up there and Nova has had a nice run of sustained success.
UCLA was there but has fallen hard and just doesn't have the fan or institutional support. IU does have the institutional support but has gone through a Michigan football period of meh coaching hires.
Duke is almost certainly going to enter that tier or multi-generational success but until they maintain it after Coach K, they haven't totally proven they're not a one hit wonder.
MSU and Syracuse are mostly just their current coaches and when they leave, we'll see how much of a sustainable "program" they have. My guess is that MSU stays near the top, and Syracuse struggles to.
So I'd say the programs definitely above Michigan and could probably poach a coach from any school under this tier:
1. Kentucky
2. Kansas
3. UNC
4. Duke
Probably above Michigan:
5. Louisville
6. Villanova
7. IU
8. MSU (and this is really close, I'm just not sure if MSU lost Izzo tomorrow that they could hire anymore better than Juwan Howard)
The next tier of Arizona, Michigan, Florida, Georgetown, UCLA, Syracuse and Texas are what I would consider mostly interchangeable destination schools that have the resources to hire big time coaches and would be considered end stops for most coaches. The tiers above would probably only be able to take a coach from these schools if it was a Roy Williams to his alma mater kind of thing.
So I think Michigan as high as the 9th program or low as the 16th is about right.
It's dumb to consider MSU without Izzo. Where would Duke be without Coach K? I'd give them one or two coaching changes before they sink out of sight. How did UCLA do without Wooden? (answer, Gene Bartow lasted two years before getting shit-canned and ended up spending the rest of his career at Alabama-Birmingham).
You know MSU won before Izzo right? Jud and a strong program going.
They were nothing special. Middle of the pack in the Big Ten most years. The two years with Magic Johnson were a big outlier.
By that logic, the Michigan football job would have sucked by those standards before Harbaugh took over.
History, national reach, and donor & fan support matter whether you like it or not. It makes a difference for Michigan football so why wouldn't it make a difference for historic college basketball programs?
Michigan is not even top 50 in wins all-time in college basketball. I think they are an upper echelon program, top 20 for sure at this point in time, but they are not elite and calling UM a bluebood is borderline. There is still some work to do to achieve this status in basketball in Ann Arbor.
Football, on the other hand....
Michigan is a top program now, but it doesn't mean it makes it a top 5 or top 10 job. It was a top program in large part due to John Beilein. But that doesn't mean the job gets that much better after he leaves. The roster that Howard inherits has some issues. I would make the same case for Tom Izzo and MSU. I think the Michigan job is better than the MSU job (better academic institution, national appeal, proximity to Detroit), and MSU's program is a top program due to Izzo but not a top job.
I think the Michigan job is borderline top 10. You can make an argument either way. But I do think it is a level below programs like UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, UCLA, IU, and Louisville. I am not sure the Michigan job is better than Arizona or Maryland. Is the Michigan job any different or stronger than other schools with rich athletic departments and some recent history of success at college basketball (Florida, OSU, or Texas)? In fact, you could make a case that those schools have richer recruiting bases given the population shift in the last 20 years, but the perception may depend on the area of the country you are based in for this group of programs.
The way I see it there are only 4 programs that are CLEARLY a cut above everyone else: Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, and Kentucky. There are no good arguments for other programs to be ahead of any of them right now. After that it’s all very debatable. We have as good an argument as anyone outside those 4 to be a top 10 program, especially on the heels of the Beilein era. If we didn’t have the sanctions things would be a lot clearer.
First Paragraph, yes. Spot on.
The wheels kinda fell off when you stated UConn...? And Florida? Come on.
UNC, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, IU, Syracuse, & msu... yes. I’m not so sure on Louisville.
Louisville basketball is like a pro basketball franchise in that city. Their fan and donor support are some of the best in college basketball. It is now in the ACC so it can sell high profile matchups against UNC, Duke, Syracuse, and Virginia in addition to its rivalries with Kentucky and Indiana. And it is close to fertile basketball recruiting regions in Indiana, Ohio, and Memphis.
Team A: 5 final four appearances, 2 national championships, 1,432 all time wins
Team B: 6 final four appearances, 1 national championship, 1,504 all time wins
Team A = Florida. Team B = Michigan. Taking off the maize and blue glasses doesn't suggest Florida is as much of a "come on" as originally thought. I'd still lean Michigan but it's certainly debatable by two reasonable people.
Michigan has 8 Final 4 appearances, including 7 championship game appearances, if you include the 2 vacated Fab 5 tournaments. That ranks 8th in Final Fours and 6th in championship game appearances.
MSU only has had success from the void we left... we fell on our sword, and they filled the vacuum... make no mistake, they were nothing without the Webber scandal.. in fact, he should be in their Hall of Fame.
They started to become a force from the point when Izzo swooped in and got Cleaves.
You have ice cubes in your brains instead of your veins.
sweet holy hell.
this is pure fucking idiocy. indiana is about to run off yet another coach. syracuse is "blue blood" solely because of jim boeheim and will fall off the map when he does. uconn? seriously? when was the last time ucla was relevant?
fucking ILLINOIS?
two minutes of my life that i'll never get back. thanks, dumbass.
'Top X program in Y league/association' has always been an odd concept to me...mostly based on tradition but also recent success but what is the true equation to be one of the 'Top 5-10 programs on college bball'?!
Anyway....
Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Kansas I guess, Michigan St. mayyybeee?; Gonzaga but once Few is gone that ship is sailing; UCLA (not to me, not right now), Louisville?; could we honestly say Arizona right now?; Indiana would be tough to include; Uconn (lulz, an example of having the right coach make them very prominent but once gone, struggle bus); Syracuse?; MICHIGAN?!!;
Anyway, you can see what I'm getting at. I'm not so sure we aren't close to being a top-10 program with recent success, tradition, money, fanbase size, etc. Maybe that changes but Beilein got us to that status. The coach in place matters greatly as some of thr programs above and many not listed could very well be back to elite status if the right guy was in place.
i didnt listen (nor will i) so i can only reference the above text but it says top 10 program right now, not top 7-10 job. if thats what was said, i agree - beilein worked his team into the top 10 over past few years but michigan isnt viewed as one of the nations elite coach jobs. next tier down, sure. hopefully howard picks up where beilein left it and over time elevates michigan to that top tier with duke, kentucky, etc.
also, who is ant wright?
For having so many teams (330+?) the tier system seems a little messed up. We always reference the top tier and include the usual Duke, UK, UNC, KU...and honestly after that it gets a little hairy for me due to some of my reasoning above but because overall tradition or lack of recent success doesnt make a team fit exactly with those 4 I just listed. Back to a not very important point I was making, the fact that 4-6 teams out of 300+ makes up an entire 'tier' of the "Current NCAA Basketball HoF" seems a bit odd to me!
Well how many titles has Gonzaga won? Ultimately very few programs end up winning national championships. Hell, the Big 10 is a really good conference but last won a title with State like 15 years ago right?
*Technically speaking*, the Big Ten team to most recently win a national championship was Maryland in 2002.
/ducks
This is exactly right. Michigan might be a top ten program today, largely due to John Beilein, but it's historically more like a top 20 program.
Where the job rates today depends on who you ask. Nowhere near the top ten except for someone with a connection to Michigan or who wants to run their program like Beilein did. He's very hard to follow.
There are a lot of coaches for whom Michigan would be a nightmare job. You're expected to win. You can't get Jucos and a lot of other transfers past admissions. If you get caught using a bagman, Michigan will turn itself in and fire you.
Overall, is Michigan a better job than Auburn, for example? They pay Bruce Pearl about the same as Beilein. Hired him as soon as he came off a show cause order. Expect him to cut corners, have resources in place to help him in questionable recruitments. They'll protect him if he gets caught. Gave him a big extension as soon as he wins. There's a lot of schools like Auburn out there. No one would argue their programs are on par with Michigan.
I'm shocked—shocked I tell you—that this is a 1201 post.
The shit weasel can’t hdlp himself.
How did I know it was 1201 before I finished the 3rd sentence?
Can someone IP ban him already?
This was good though!
Ant's a funny guy. He's wrong on some stuff here, but that video is legit funny.
Ant’s just pissed he didn’t get the job.
There are good reasons to question whether this will work. But Manuel can't make home run candidates want the job. And as much as I like Yaklich, he wouldn't have been a home run hire. There would have been reasons to doubt him too. I'm not sure what Wright wanted here.
Yeah, Wright has been strongly against this whole coaching search, which is his opinion but seems based on personal feelings about stuff than anything beyond the usual concerns everyone has. Like, nobody but the laziest partisans are saying this is a no-doubter, but "in-demand NBA assistant who consistently gets praise from people who work with him" isn't a bunch of smoke being blown up a guy's ass.
If we wanted to know Anthony Wright's takes, we would've asked. -1
So just who the fuck is Ant Wright? And why should I care?
Anthony Wright.
He's usually a fun follow, but for some reason is acting like a dick about this coaching transition. He's coming off like he has an axe to grind with the Fab 5. Maybe stuff was said about them when he was here?
It seems like there's some kind of tension almost between the early Beilein guys and the Fab Five era (1991-98) guys. Stu Douglass had a rant on twitter yesterday about Jalen and Chris.