Great article on how MSU started the ugliness
Mods please delete if this has been posted. I hope I got the link to work. Anyways I thought this was a great take on how MSU started most of the hate or bad bad blood in the rivalry and it started with the Ahole Mark D. I found it to be great that there are facts that bring this to light that not both sides created this mess and it was mainly the MSU side.
https://www.on3.com/teams/michigan-wolverines/news/tuesday-thoughts-jim…
November 3rd, 2022 at 3:27 PM ^
Do you see the correlation between your feelings of hatred and their success?
It was always a rivalry. Maybe you feel it more now because they got better for a bit and Dantonio really played up their resentment, but that’s always been a foundational piece.
I am not saying it’s not worse now, but it was always bitter and emotional. The dynamic included is being dismissive of them.
Dantonio turned up the physicality and rhetoric.
November 3rd, 2022 at 4:00 PM ^
I'm o.k. with them having some success...it's the pride in success at the hands of something improbable that really gets to me.
Look, if I hit the green on a par 3 and you don't want to even acknowledge the good shot...that's fine. But when you proceed to shank it into the woods and the ball ricochets off a tree back on the green to within inches of the pin, at least acknowledge that the golf gods are smiling on you, but don't dance around and taunt me like you hit a great shot.
November 3rd, 2022 at 9:12 PM ^
1973 - MSU voted to send OSU to the Rose Bowl
1978 - Darryl Rogers calls the people and players in Ann Arbor "arrogant asses."
That's where it started for me, but it was fairly tame until Dantonio came around,
November 3rd, 2022 at 3:22 PM ^
We were saying Little Brother to them back in the 80’s. Stateeee pea brains don’t go back that far it seems.
November 3rd, 2022 at 3:28 PM ^
Sadly, many UM fans also struggle with this.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:22 PM ^
Sparty forgets their coach's disrespect and public embrace of The Horror and his "moment of silence" comment spurred Mikey's "Little Brother" jab. Just because he performed some kind of emotional alchemy, turning it into a redwood sized chip on his and the program's shoulder, doesn't erase the chronology of events. THEY made it a big deal despite it being a relatively benign and oft-used pejorative. Good for them, but to equivocate some disrespekt as justification for the increasingly sinister motivational responses and violent in-game impulses - not so much.
Having to parse MSU insolence is a loathsome, but illuminating, exercise since their Pravda chamber seems to have an alternative facts problem.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:27 PM ^
That’s not what spurred the little brother jab. They were the ones bringing up little brother before and during the game. That’s why he said it. He even said they said at the press conference where he said it. It had been in the news and everything.
I don’t know why I bother. This is a losing battle for me. I know at least one other person on the board knows what I am talking about.
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:12 PM ^
It's not that I don't believe you, but I've never heard that before. Do you have a source showing that?
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:23 PM ^
It has been scrubbed from the Internet. Another mgo poster recently said he had a newspaper article bookmarked that he’s linked many times but is now gone.
I think Hart’s comment in the press conference was something like:
Reporter: Do you think of them as your little brother?
Hart: Yep. That’s how they talk about themselves so that’s how I think about them.
Good luck finding the video after the “yep.”
They had been saying they would show us who’s little brother and during the game were saying Who’s little brother now?
But this is, of course, because we have always called them little brother forever and ever.
Edit:
Okay, easier to find the video than I thought.
https://youtu.be/0GCEOuJ_GCM
He’s not explicit in his press conference but it makes sense when you understand the background of them bringing it up before the game. Otherwise his comment makes no sense.
November 3rd, 2022 at 7:52 PM ^
It used to be on YouTube- it's not there anymore?
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:17 PM ^
Yes it was Javon Ringer.
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:44 PM ^
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:58 PM ^
Perfect. It certainly isn’t antagonistic sounding coming from their end in this piece. Oh, what quaint and innocent times those were. They honestly sound humble and respectful.
But proof that being called little brother was in their minds before the game.
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:28 PM ^
Man, I think you just nailed the historicity. Ratcheting up the hate and violence was a Dantonio thing, but it also would not have taken if he hadn't also been very successful. That's pretty much the story with any cultural adoption: the behavior doesn't have to correlate with the success, or even affect it, but because it was there when they had the success it became associated with it.
Look across history and those associations are very difficult to break. European aristocratic culture adopted chivalric violence in the process of subjugating the Romano-Celts, and held onto it all the way into the mid-20th century. The Romans bought so hard into the male chauvinism of their Equestrian class that it's still embedded in the Catholic Church. The racism of the colonial era still plagues New World society.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:03 PM ^
i think the best way to punish msu is to kick the football team out of the b1g. i know that won't happen but i'd be ok with it.
michigan could still choose to schedule them in the non-con if they want.
this isn't a "one off" incident with the football program. it is a pattern of malicious behavior and criminal activity going back over a decade.
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:59 PM ^
I'm with Craig Ross (on today's discussion), take MSU out of regular rotation. Play them as often as we play Purdue or Minnesota.
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:40 PM ^
You know it's bad for MSU when Finebaum praises Jim Harbaugh.
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:54 PM ^
Same thought here for a guy who doesn't care about JH he is actually sticking up for us. Also there is another video of a MSU coach lowering his shoulder into Jim Harbaugh. It is on ON3 I think but it is in the paid subscription part.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:05 PM ^
I saw that on twitter but there is no indication that it was anything but incidental IMO. The video provides about as much proof of intent as the "McBurrows skipping = he was going to in the tunnel to taunt people" BS that MSU folks are trying to speak into existence.
On a side note - In the various videos it sure seemed like a LOT of the MSU support staff were woofing and gesturing even more than the majority of the players. I am not sure if this is common or something that M staffers tend to do in similar situations but in a vacuum it sure seemed to indicate a program-wide culture of M hatred from those that are supposed to be supporting/leading/mentoring the MSU players.
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:43 PM ^
I read this the other night and agreed with the article. It's still my belief that the majority of guys on that team just want to win and have a crack at the NFL, without all the nastiness we saw last weekend. Sadly, there's a vocal (and physical) minority casting all of them in a bad light.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:28 PM ^
Single most dangerous thing about social media is the amplification of very small, but very loud, groups of people.
November 3rd, 2022 at 3:00 PM ^
Maybe the second most dangerous thing? False info seems worse.
November 3rd, 2022 at 3:43 PM ^
That may be true.
But this isn't just a few bad apples. We are up to *eight* indefinite suspensions right now. And with MSU players and staff everywhere in that tunnel, there was maybe one or two MSU guys who tried to break up the "fight". Most everyone else was just watching or cowardly running away.
This deserves program-level punishment by the Big Ten. It's not enough just to suspend or eventually expel some of the players involved. The Big Ten really needs to come down hard on MSU and send a message that this will not be tolerated. I have my doubts, of course...
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:45 PM ^
I don't know what the BIG is going to do or really have any insight into the criminality of the actions, but I don't know if there is anything MSU could be doing that they haven't. Neither the coach nor the administration have hedged at all in their statements condemning the actions, and they have suspended eight (!) players indefinitely. Tucker was not completely transparent immediately following the game but saying more there could do a lot more damage than saying less and it was clear he had not witnessed everything that occurred.
A lot of Michigan State fans have completely left the reservation but there hasn't been any ifs, ands, or buts from the actual program. To the extent that they could reach out to Michigan or the victims it has been made very clear from Harbaugh and Gemon's lawyer that they are not particularly interested in "conversations."
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:57 PM ^
Depends a lot on what "indefinitely" means. Some coaches use that to sound tough initially buy the player's suspension somehow ends before the next game.
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:58 PM ^
Old Lynn Henning did an Interview with I think Tim Stout and says there is no way criminal charges should be filed. He is a State Homer and if it was on the field of play when the game was still going then I don't see it being a criminal case but since game was over and they were in the tunnel then criminal charges imo should be filed. This needs to be taken seriously so we never see this BS again in college sports.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:29 PM ^
It would still be an outlier. I think the closest analogy would be Lagarette Blount and there were no charges there.
November 4th, 2022 at 1:01 AM ^
I honestly have no idea how there can not be criminal charges for at least the helmet swinger. That is assault with a weapon and it directly resulted in a head injury to Green.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:19 PM ^
The only "legitimate" beef that I have seen regarding the MSU response is in regard to an actual apology to M or the players involved. I am not sure if that has legal ramifications that would prevent it.
As for Mars - he seems to me to be one of those "media whore" brand of lawyers with sports being his area to interject himself. I agree that he probably has little interest in anything but publicity and a settlement for him.............and his clients. He may have been good at one point.
November 3rd, 2022 at 3:32 PM ^
He did out Hugh Freeze and his escorts and got immediate eligibility for Shea and several other Ole Miss players.
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:49 PM ^
Balas does a nice job in the article of giving the specific examples of Dantonio's hate and how he continued to poke at Michigan throughout his tenure.
It would be interesting to see how little weasel Jim Comparoni would feel about this article.
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:49 PM ^
Goes back before Dantonio. George Perles and the “Sparty special” personal fouls in the 1980s is what I remember.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:10 PM ^
Some of the rage under Perles was steroids rage - Tony Mandarich, etc. Look at what 'roids did to Lyle Alzado, who tore off a helmet from a Jets player and threw it at him.
Plus, George's PFs usually were perfectly timed to push them back into 2nd and long or give us a 1st down. Bo and George actually came to get along.
November 3rd, 2022 at 12:51 PM ^
nationally, the msu players, coaches, and admins are getting absolutely roasted over this (deservedly) in the media, both in terms of what happened and the lackluster response from msu.
there are about 50,000 people on the planet who think this is being overblown, or it had anything to do with Michigan, the tunnel, Harbaugh, Green & McBurrows, etc. unfortunately, some of those 50,000 people are sparty media slappies. the rest post on rcmb
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:03 PM ^
{Narrator: But he did not get the link to work.}
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:08 PM ^
The most recent cultural event from their program is linked below. Just sayin.
(Bobby Williams/John L era player.)
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:09 PM ^
Now though, they’ve got Harbaugh’s full attention. They called down the thunder — well, now they’ve got it. Jim comin’ … and hell’s coming with him.
Classic adaptation from Tombstone. Enhanced with a “Tuck comin’” reference!
November 4th, 2022 at 8:39 AM ^
Great movie.....
Oh make no mistake, its not revenge he's after, its a reckoning.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:11 PM ^
I don't always love Balas but he is right on here and it is important to have all of the history in one place, though it doesn't include everything.
Also don't like Jamelle Hill, but she's right on the rivalry mattering more to MSU because of an inferiority complex and MSU wanting so badly to have a rivalry that matters like the OSU one does. For that reason, so much of MSU's behavior regarding Michigan is childish and attention-seeking. Clearly the tunnel assaults go beyond that, but there is a line drawn that leads from Dantonio to Saturday.
This is why Michigan needs to monitor the response by MSU, the Big Ten and law enforcement, to see how serious this is taken. If insufficient punishment is doled out, Michigan needs to punish MSU by taking away the thing that is most important to them - the game itself. That will get their attention, I think.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:11 PM ^
Had his team line up to face a terrible Michigan team — RichRod’s first — before the National Anthem in an apparent intimidation tactic, then paraded the Paul Bunyan Trophy around the stadium after a come-from-behind win.
I don't doubt this but also don't recall this (the National Anthem part) - is there anymore stories or clips one can read up more on this?
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:16 PM ^
Think of the sleezeball Urban Meyer. He went 7-0 as Ohio HC vs. Michigan. Not a nasty word that I can recall from him before/after any game. Other than the 2013 incident (double flipped bird) we didn't have any real nasty incidents with his team. Maybe the Ohio-UM history of (mostly) respect played a part here.
Was at UM 1st half of the 80s and went to three straight games in EL, plus watched the 89 game at an EL bar. There wasn't any deep hate from the fans at the time. Felt perfectly safe. Dicktonio created the monster that has consumed the fan base and players even into Year 3 of Mel. Bo, Mo, and Lloyd were a combined 30-9 vs. them 1969-2007. They went 8-2 the next 10. They adopted the same arrogance that they claimed we had toward them, but infused with hate and despised everything UM.
Yes, we should have won 44-7 but 29-7 was still a whipping.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:18 PM ^
Someone needs to call into Valenti's show and read the transgression litany to him, on Monday he said over and over that Jim Harbaugh was the one that started with the lack of respect for MSU.
It'd be awesome to shove the facts down his and Rico's throat.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:22 PM ^
they'd hang up on you and with the 7 second radio delay, you'd never be heard
November 3rd, 2022 at 4:15 PM ^
That would be a total waste of time. Even if you weren't immediately hung up on (which I'm 99.99999% sure would happen), there is a zero percent chance that either Valenti or Rico would actually take any of it to heart. It would be immediately dismissed and then fired back as Michigan whining, etc.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:20 PM ^
I think there should be a distinction made between rivalry trash talk and the stuff that goes well beyond. Some of Dantonio's antics (the 2008 line thing) came up to the line and others went over it. I don't think holding up 4 or running up the score are worth mention among the other events. If he wants to call Hart short that's petty but also not damning.
The issue here is not rivalry jawing but fostering a culture of hate where violence, particularly violence towards Michigan players, is considered okay. There's twisting Denard's helmet. There's going for Mike Martin's knees. There's the play of Jacob Panasiuk, who should have been booted from the team after his multiple attempts to injure (the Ruiz one that got Onwenu a PF particularly sticks out) Michigan players, but was inserted late in 2019 to head hunt Shea Patterson. The Bone March was literal mob behavior and Mark Dantonio should never have been allowed to coach another game after, because it was part of a pattern of behavior.
We have a hard time these days when the blame for a thing is really one-sided, because anyone can turn to their media and hear that it's not their fault. Michigan State's culture problem is a case example of this. There's no accountability because their media ecosystem will never hold them to it, and their fanbase is encouraged to think their worst thoughts while their players are encouraged to act on them.
I know the trash talk is part of that culture--that at MSU they take it more seriously than that and therefore it is more serious than that. But I don't want the trash talk mentioned in the same breath as the things that make MSU's football program garbage, because it takes away from the extraordinary nature of the hateful violence that culture has produced.
November 3rd, 2022 at 1:48 PM ^
Amen to that Seth. I will also add that it is petty when a coach repeatedly trash talks in public either by throwing snarky words or by his actions. He is supposed to be the adult and be above that. That man is a lot shorter than Football players in his era, because of his petty actions.
November 3rd, 2022 at 3:05 PM ^
Mocking a student, at your school or another school, shows a lack of self-control or determination to get attention.
Either way, it would get a teacher censured or fired.
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:03 PM ^
Mostly agree except for this:
“If he wants to call Hart short that's petty but also not damning.”
The vitriolic and personal attack on an opposing player was damning. He didn’t get upset at Hart for physically attacking his players, his over the top response was because of a verbal jab. I would say it was out of control except it was probably very calculated.
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:26 PM ^
Agree. I don't mind Dantonio addressing the comments themselves or talking about a player's play on the field, but a college coach making a personal comment about an opposing player is in really poor taste. I think we can reasonably expect a 50 year-old head coach of a major program to be above making personal attacks on a 21 year-old player, regardless of what that player said. Maybe it only loosely contributes to the culture problems we're discussing here, but it fits the pattern of "stooping" and being unhinged towards UM.
November 3rd, 2022 at 2:55 PM ^
Gamesmanship goes both ways...Devin Bush at midfield, Michael Shaw shoving an undressed OSU player in the tunnel, etc. But something happened after Carr retired and Dantonio started at MSU where MSU started looking the other way when it came their players behavior while we were constantly criticized. Remember Hoke tucking his dick and having to apologize for a UM flag being planted on MSU's field...after a UM loss? Denard Robinson's spinal column gets f'd with and Dantonio says nothing.