Craigh Roh's play at DE
So I re-watched the game last night, and I noticed some things about Roh.
First, let me say he is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better at DE than LB. He made some nice plays in the backfield, either tackling the RB himself or driving his man back and closing a hole. He got some nice pressure on the QB, and even drew some holds that weren't called. In particular, he and RVB did a really nice job on some stunts that sprung Roh free up the middle.
The negative I saw though, was a bit interesting. On read-option plays, where they optioned off Roh, he played it a bit odd. Everytime he would do the sideways basketball slide as if to contain the QB, but then late would crash after the RB. This was irregardless of who had the ball. So because of his initial hesitation movement, he was too late to get to the RB if it was handed off, but because he crashed he didn't actually contain the QB either and he ran around him. My best guess is that he was trying to put himself in a position to stop both options, but the effect was that he kept himself from being able to stop either. I know he just moved back to DE, but it happened 5 or 6 times by my estimate, so you'd have hoped he'd learn as the game went on.
Overall, he played great, but this definitely needs to be corrected before Purdue and OSU, who both run some read-option.
As a side note, RVB was a beast out there. He was getting through on pass plays, he was crushing his man backwards on run plays forcing cut backs. I have a hunch that this game will be one of his best ever when the UFR comes out. Huge game.
November 7th, 2010 at 9:34 AM ^
I know what you are saying, but when you are watching option plays it is often difficult who is supposed to be doing what. I thought Mouton was at fault for many of the option plays as it appeared we were crashing down and the lb's were supposed to scrape outside and Mouton kinda froze. The Ford run where he had him dead to rights and kinda stopped was horrendous.
We'll see I still stand by the fact that was the best performance by a defense that ever gave up 65 points. They gave up a bunch of big plays but they actually got some pressure and mad some big stops after a bunch of turnovers.
November 7th, 2010 at 9:50 AM ^
I'd have to agree with you. The 5 turnovers were tough on the D, but they still gave us a chance by keeping us in the game. What's even more amazing is that our offense puts up those kind of numbers with that many give aways. I think it speaks for the whole team that they never let up and were hungry for a win after last week.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:01 AM ^
November 7th, 2010 at 10:07 AM ^
Except when they ran a RB Wheel route. Eesh.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:24 AM ^
could it be that they were blitzing much more and letting the inexperienced secondary try to play man more?
I'll be very interested in the UFR, but so far I think the win is changing everyone's opinion much more than the stats. The stats are horrible, there was no defense in the first half at all on either side.
also a turnover is only different from a punt in field position, and I don't see where field position has ever helped the defense.
Now I do think that this game had far more blitz calls, but as mentioned about the RB Wheel route, I saw a lot more pass plays where the receiver was not only wide open/uncovered and able to run it in for the TD or just huge yards.
I know it just can't really be speculated, but I think human nature being what it is, the opinion on the defense if Michigan had lost 67-65 would not be about how great their performance was.
November 7th, 2010 at 12:12 PM ^
Perhaps as an overall body of work the D didn't put together a clinic, but I disagree with several of your points:
- A turnover is NOT functionally a "punt with different field position," the TO immediately ends a drive without giving the offense the opportunity to run time off of the clock, and also keeps the defense on the field for longer. For ex, one of those TOs was on a kickoff, negating an entire offensive drive. It was like adding an extra 2:00 to the quarter, with the ball reserved for the Illini.
- Even if we had lost, this was the best defensive performance by Michigan this year. There are statistical reasons for this (http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/statistical-analysis-defense-during-b10-gam…) including the best % of stops of drives in a B10 game, but also, our defense prevented us from ever being blown out early in the game, and exerted its will early on in forcing 3 and outs, generating a turnover, and keeping us in the game even as the multiple first-half turnovers
- This game reminded me of the Capital One Bowl in that the final score didn't really do jutsice to how well the defense played, particularly given a massively lopsided turnover differential in favor of our opponent.
- This is STILL a young defense. The difference is, today it played like a young defense with potential for development and sparks for a brighter future. They showed heart and grit. Roh and RVB blasting by their men, Avery's MONSTER hit on Scheelhaas (def. sp?) etc. etc.
November 7th, 2010 at 12:40 PM ^
November 7th, 2010 at 12:59 PM ^
Indeed. Let's not forget we were -4 in turnover margin. The fact that we never went down by more than a score, despite that, means the defense played way beyond expectations. Those two RB wheel routes were painful, but beyond those, at least there was a defender in position most of the time. Unlike last week.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:47 AM ^
yeah... seems like it was Mouton who misread that play both times they had big gains on it. did anyone else notice. i could be wrong but i thought it was him for both plays.
November 7th, 2010 at 11:04 AM ^
It's a tough call. It seemed like the LB's were in zone with the way Mouton and Demens dropped back. On both it looked like whoever was outside (Ezeh I think, but could have been Fitzgerald) was put in a bad spot. It looked like Mouton dropped into a middle zone, and the CB's went with the WR's in man. The safety on that side went with the crossing routes from the WR's. That left the outside guy to cover two guys. One guy was going short into the flat, while the RB ran the wheel. He took the flat guy both times.
It looked like the defense reacted the exact same way each time that play was run, which leads me to believe it was just a bad defense against that play, rather than a mistake by any one player. Illinois also ran it enough that it makes me believe that the Illinois coaches noticed something in the scheme they could exploit, and took advantage.
Basically, I'm not sure it was on any of the players.
November 7th, 2010 at 3:00 PM ^
I've been tossing that play around in my head (didn't DVR) all night long...
If I'm not mistaken (have to check the replay tonight), the corner and safety played that one correctly. The flats were covered and Mouton should have read the RB out of the back field. It was actually one of the best offensive play calls I've seen all year and is tough to defend, but not impossible to defend. Scheelhaase can throw it to the flats, corner bites he can throw the post, safety bite he can throw the deep post, bite on the qb in the wheel route is wide open, or if everyone is covered Scheelhaase has open field to run.
Also, on the play where Roh noticeably did the "basketball" shuffle to the inside on the zone read, I think Mouton was supposed to scrape and play contain. They both were moving in the same direction (to the inside) and were no where near making a play.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:34 AM ^
"that ever gave up 65 points."
OK.
I'd be more excited by a bad perforamnce by a defense that gives up 17 points.
November 7th, 2010 at 11:53 AM ^
On an option play, everyone has responsibilities as to who they are supposed to tackle, depending on the defense they are running. This "basketball slide" is a feathering technique that defensive ends do to 1)mess up the QB because it is harder to read the DE because he hasn't committed yet 2)give the other defenders more time to get to their responsibilities because the play hasn't progressed yet. Let's say Roh has the QB on option. He waits and waits to finally commit and smash him and that puts the QB in a bind because the QB doesn't know if he should run himself or pitch. If Roh commits early the QB pitches right away and the tailback is off an running rather than waiting around for the pitch while the other defenders catch up.
November 7th, 2010 at 9:36 AM ^
I think Roh's big leap will come in this up coming off-season. Another 10 lbs of muscle will go along way in his pass-rush...I agree 100% with your statement that he's a way better DE than LB. His hand in the dirt suit's him on pass-plays but I don't know that he's physically there on run-plays.
November 7th, 2010 at 9:47 AM ^
My kids got really confused when I started yelling "Drop him Death Roh, get to him! YEAH!" On the last play.
November 7th, 2010 at 11:57 AM ^
Haha judging by your posts in this and other threads you are an extremely emotive fan in your house on gamedays. Any chance you could find a fellow 'M' fan to watch games with you? I'm the same way, but find that it always makes things a bit more fun and a bit less intense when it's a group activity.
November 7th, 2010 at 9:51 AM ^
I really like Roh as a DL rather than an LB. Also, don't fail to consider he was being held on every snap. They may have flagged 1 or 2.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:02 AM ^
just another example of the coaches not helping him succeed.
And let's remember Roh had to beg the coaches to even be put back at DL.
In spite of all that, Roh had a VERY promising day!
November 7th, 2010 at 10:33 AM ^
I don't want to kill Bruce Tall here, because I think he's about the only defensive coach that's actually worth a damn (or at least the only one that's shown an ability to coach his guys up to a high level), and more than that has actually been a great position coach, in terms of technique at least (as evidenced by the progression of guys like Brandon Graham, RVB, Martin and , hopefully, Roh).
That said, I noticed this a few times with Brandon Graham the last couple years as well. He'd often get caught in the middle on misdirection or read option plays. That seems like a coaching issue to me. Or perhaps it's simply a difficult read to make. Perhaps the assignment just needs to be simplified against read option teams. Like telling the DE to just always attack the QB and the LB that he always has the backside cutback. Or reverse that and the DE always crashes and the LB or overhang player always has the QB.
November 7th, 2010 at 11:14 AM ^
I agree with you. Whatever talent Rodriguez, Magee, and Smith have for looking at players and determining their potential on offense seems to be lacking among Robinson, Gibson, and maybe even Tall. I think it's harder to determine ability on defense but it shouldn't take 8 games to figure out who your best players on defense are and how to use them best.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:05 AM ^
Roh never lines up anywhere but DE, ever again. Seriously, he stirs things up in the backfield pretty well, but looks lost dropping back as a LB, especially in coverage.
He went from potential superstar vs. ND, to relatively quiet unknown at LB. Yesterday was the first time Roh made a significant impact since ND, IMO. Not a knock on him, but rather on the coaches. Put me firmly in the "I hate the 3-3-5" column. This team needs to stop the run and pressure the QB to have ANY chance of getting otf the field.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:29 AM ^
Roh should always play DE, and my guess is that he won't move from there the rest of the season. The PSU game might have been the death knell for the 3-3-5 this season, and hopefully they'll just go with a 4-3 and at least put their playmakers in places where they can provide the biggest bang for the buck.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:41 AM ^
Despite what RR and his pressers may have led you to believe "irregardless" still is not a word.
Roh is great at DE.
November 7th, 2010 at 9:43 PM ^
Roh is much better @ DE, RVB is awesome and the correct usage is and always will be "regardless".
November 7th, 2010 at 10:55 AM ^
I guess I'll have to wait for the UFR, because it will be pretty interesting. I've seen quite a few players be praised on D, yet we still were getting shredded. So somebody had to be bad...
November 7th, 2010 at 11:17 AM ^
It's the progress that has people talking, especially compared to the debacle in State College last week. Michigan played like the worst D in D-I ball at PSU. Against Illinois, they were merely below average.
November 7th, 2010 at 12:23 PM ^
It didn't help that turnovers and U-M's special teams were giving Illinois great field position throughout the game. That's going to make things harder for any defense.
November 7th, 2010 at 11:03 AM ^
by Avery's play yesterday. Even the TD over his head, he was in position, just a perfect throw. Also seemed like guys were making tackles in the open field that they would have whiffed on in the past. Yes we gave up a ton of yards, but made several key stops too. GO BLUE!!!
Oh yeah, and we WON THE FUCKING GAME too. Yeeeeehaawwwww!!!! My buzz hasn't worn off yet.
November 7th, 2010 at 1:25 PM ^
He was inches from putting a hand on that ball. It was good coverage against a perfectly-thrown ball.
November 7th, 2010 at 11:05 AM ^
seems to be the new technique on d. I saw it in a couple different games.
November 7th, 2010 at 11:19 AM ^
DE Roh>OLB Roh, that is for damn sure.
Great point on the tackling, it seemed much better this week.
November 7th, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
I think Van Bergen might be the most underrated player on the team. He's not flashy but it seems like he is incredibly consistent, and this is usually proven by the UFR. Not to mention, he still has another year left.
November 7th, 2010 at 1:41 PM ^
November 7th, 2010 at 8:28 PM ^
Roh has to go if the T on his disappears or pulls. Hopefully the LB on his side was swapping as Roh went heel line. I wasn't looking at those plays to see if it was QB GT or just a GT or base blocking.
Anyone notice if those plays were GT's or simple zone reads?
November 7th, 2010 at 8:43 PM ^
The best thing about Roh at DE is that he wasn't at LB....