Community Sentiments on UM Football Culture Change

Submitted by Bo Harbaugh on December 7th, 2019 at 4:24 PM

I see a lot of Harbaugh bashing here and in the media, but also a realistic defense of his coaching that says "who could do better given the academic and recruiting constraints" UM places upon itself.

That said, curious to see how the community feels about changing the "culture" away from the student-athlete model to more of a football factory.

 

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crg

December 7th, 2019 at 5:07 PM ^

First and foremost: thank you for your service.

Second, I agree - the greater UM community is much more than simply the alums.  So many people have different connections to the school (family, friends, employees, students, etc.) and all those opinions matter.

Thirdly, this is a *school* before anything else - and a damned good one at that.  The high standards and expectations for the students (academic and ethic) matter and are core to Michigan and it's students/alumni.  Simply because a kid can do something with a ball/puck/or other sport gear should never diminish those standards or expectations.

21runnin_WILD

December 7th, 2019 at 7:30 PM ^

I wasn’t humblebraggadiddly fishing for the old “thank you for your service line, but thank you.. I appreciate it.

Not sure about other vets on here, but there is a sort of cringe effect that I get when people say that to me. It’s always awkward.

I do agree with your point, however. I understand that the university has a certain set of standards for all student athletes to uphold.... but GD I just want to see my team WIN. 

Seems like we’re in a bit of a pickle with the whole situation.

The Mad Hatter

December 7th, 2019 at 7:49 PM ^

My daughter has some football players in her classes. She describes 2 of them as "really nice guys, but not that bright". They show up to class, but their work product is subpar compared to other students.

I'm fine with paying players and even letting them take some online classes, but I think the SEC type schools don't really make them do much at all other than practice football. If that's true, we're always going to be at a disadvantage.

So our coaches and players will have to work that much harder to complete.

Mr Miggle

December 7th, 2019 at 5:50 PM ^

Ultimately the school administration makes the decisions about the direction of the football program. They care about the reputation of the school far more than the success of the football team. There's a natural tension between accepting money from the athletic department in exchange for having less control over them.

I'm not sure how much the opinion of fans matter, whether or not they're alums. The opinion of alums might matter, whether or not they're fans.

BlueInWisconsin

December 7th, 2019 at 4:44 PM ^

The NCAA has created a system that encourages cheating.  They talk out of both side of their mouth espousing amateurism for the athletes while chasing as much money as possible for themselves.  As we've seen time and again the NCAA has determined that enforcing its own rules and credibility is secondary to the almighty dollar.  You can’t punish UNC for the worst academic fraud in history because that would make March Madness just a tiny bit less profitable.  The introduction of the football playoff has only made it worse.  Every year it’s the same collection of cheaters and sexual assaulters at the top.  Frankly I’m tired of watching it.  To me the football playoff is over.  I don’t watch it.  It’s sad the damage it’s done to college football and the damage that the NCAA had done to college athletics in general.  

How does Louisville still have a basketball program?  How does Baylor have an athletic department at all?  How is UNC still taken seriously as a university?  How long can OSU go on running an open fraud in Columbus?  How long can MSU go on covering up gang rapes to protect the images of their beloved coaches?

its sad that it’s come to this. But the solution is not for Michigan to debase itself in the same ways.  Then the last remaining shred of reason for all of this existing would be gone.  Fix the system. 

Mr Miggle

December 7th, 2019 at 9:17 PM ^

UNC not being punished had little to do with the basketball tournament. A lot of other schools didn't want the NCAA to look at their own academics. They chose to let UNC skate rather than give them the power to hold those classes up to scrutiny. Even if they thought UNC deserved to be punished, they didn't like the precedent it would set.

People like to label the NCAA as a force for evil in college athletics. It's a fraud. The NCAA has very little power. All the big decisions are made by a vote of the schools. The UNC and PSU decisions are just two examples. They use the NCAA to shield themselves from blame for everything the fans don't like. Anything that replaces the NCAA would still be run by the schools. It would mean nothing unless some schools broke away from the others.

 

MaizeMN

December 7th, 2019 at 4:45 PM ^

I don't think we should "cheat", nor do I think we should replace Harbaugh. It's the coveted "end must justify the means" philosophy  that sets us apart from the ESS EEE CEEs and tOSUs of the world. It may cost us games, but at least we have some semblence of a moral high ground. Between that and superior academics we illustrate the Michigan Difference. And that's a claim that these other "ain't come here play schools" can't  make. 

Rendezvous

December 7th, 2019 at 6:39 PM ^

I've taken a couple online grad school classes. One was was challenging with high demands and expectations, but the other was a joke, where it was more important to make a certain number of token comments in a class discussion than to contribute anything of substance to that discussion. I read every class discussion, but most of the contributions were just blathering or simply paraphrasing the professor's postings, and contributed little or nothing to my learning. Papers I wrote and submitted seemed to have been barely read, with simple comments like 'nice job' rather than thoughtful responses. These were graduate level courses I took more than 15 years ago to earn a professional license in another state. I can only imagine how easy it is now to cheat or have someone else do your work for you, if that is how you want to 'earn' your degree. That is assuming that you are actually attending college for the purpose of such a degree. 

Navy Wolverine

December 7th, 2019 at 5:16 PM ^

According to John Bacon's recent book on Michigan football, when Michigan draws up it's initial list of potential candidates for a recruiting class they have to eliminate 50% of them once they receive their HS transcripts. That coupled with the fact that they don't use the bagman goes a long way to explain why Michigan has such a hard time getting (and keeping) those Top 100 recruits they badly need to take the next step as a program.

Look at the 2020 class. The #1 player in the state of Michigan is Justin Rogers - a high 4-star (#44 in the 247 composite) DEFENSIVE TACKLE. Probably the most critical hole in the recruiting class and Michigan doesn't even put any effort into pursuing this kid. The. number. one. recruit. in. Michigan. Just one of many examples.

MichAtl85

December 7th, 2019 at 4:46 PM ^

If we magically signed multiple 5 stars during the signing I’d raise a glass, wink, and smile about the future. Most would know what went down to all of a sudden get those players and I’d be 100% ok with that

Pthorne17

December 7th, 2019 at 4:49 PM ^

Just my opinion but if I were Michigan’s AD I would request the team be moved to the west division and the Ohio State game be moved or I take my ball and go somewhere else. And for the love of god start scheduling cupcake games for out of conference play. I get it this may not be popular but I see what Clemson, BAMA, and OSU do every year schedule cupcake easy wins. These are changes that Ward should make ASAP. Just my two cents 

Pthorne17

December 7th, 2019 at 7:58 PM ^

The original question was a change in culture which I believe needs to come from our AD. I don’t think changing coaches is a good idea unless your going to bring in Lincoln Riley, Urban, Dabo, or Saban which non of the above are going to happen. So playing in the west may have us play OSU twice a year so be it. 

scfanblue

December 7th, 2019 at 4:50 PM ^

^

The answer is quite simple. The University of Michigan should leave the Big Ten in football only and play in the Ivy League. Therefore, the football program under Harbaugh can maintain its academic standards keeping it above Stanford. The recruiting field will certainly be fair as Michigan will only have to worry about Harvard and Yale year after year. Last but not least, Michigan will always have chance to win the conference title year after year. The football program can be just like Ohio State is to the Big Ten- the conference monster. It’s a win win situation for the program and it’s fan base. Michigan football will keep the medical field supplied with physicians while never giving up ethics or integrity while dominating on the gridiron. They won’t have to get caught up year after year in the playoff drama nor will they have to play in a meaningless bowl anymore. This is the answer folks. True leaders of the West. John Bacon can stop writing his books and focus on a Netflix documentary on each player as they progress through medical school and their lives afterwards. In the meantime, Harbaugh’s salary can be raised to 11 million and each year the team can start taking trips into space when they have explored the entire globe. 

Navy Wolverine

December 7th, 2019 at 5:31 PM ^

I don't know about the Ivy League, but maybe Michigan should leave the B1G and form a conference with the likes of Notre Dame, Stanford, Cal, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Virginia, Georgia Tech and Wake Forest.

We can call it the Big Sanctimonious Amateur Conference. 

Bagmen and any talk of paying players is strictly forbidden. Instead of wins and losses, they can decide who wins the conference championship by counting the number of Academic All-Americans and Rhodes Scholars. Instead of going to the CFP, the winners can appear on a Jeopardy Tournament of Champions.

 

Hotel Putingrad

December 7th, 2019 at 5:37 PM ^

Tongue in cheek or not, this is on point. 

College football sold its soul to the devil with the TV rights. Michigan decided to play along but still try to hold the line at a certain "integrity" point. So they're living with one foot in each world, tying their own competitive hand behind their back while still pocketing ungodly sums of money from tickets, merchandise, revenue sharing. You can't have it both ways. Either go all in on the academic standards, or play the game the way the other big programs are. By not doing so, Michigan is only cheating itself.

The Oracle 2

December 7th, 2019 at 4:51 PM ^

I’m sure every school’s fan base is angry when their team doesn’t win, but I wonder if other schools have as many whiny fans as Michigan seems to have who feel they are somehow entitled to elite football because their school is so special and morally superior?

uncle leo

December 7th, 2019 at 5:20 PM ^

I will give you credit man. You are really trying to preserve in your mind what college athletics should, and probably were in the 60s.

But it's almost 2020. It's dirty. It's basically a farm system for the professional sports.

There are thousands upon thousands of stories and sources to back this up. This is not made up. 

Once you accept it, then you can enjoy it better. Stop trying to put college sports on a bastion of integrity.

crg

December 7th, 2019 at 5:26 PM ^

For many of the larger schools and conferences, you are right.  However, it is not a universal truth as everyone proclaims - nor should it be accepted as "business as usual".

Am I being a Boy Scout about this?  Sure.  Is that a bad thing?  No.  The world doesn't need to be a dirty place - all it takes is for normal people to stop allowing it.

Muttley

December 7th, 2019 at 4:52 PM ^

I wonder if the NCAA really cares about bagmen at this stage.  It is what it is, but only for the time being. Players profiting from their likenesses is coming in 2022, so enforcement against that flow seems a littte antiquated.

Water finds its own level, and so the market will evolve when player compensation is an above-board, taxable activity.  (And a tax-deductable marketing expense for those paying for it.)

I think the Michigan portal for player likeness services will provide future Michigan football players with compensation that is competitive with that offered today by OSU, Alabama, Clemson, etc.

No need to go to online classes yet when some degree of a leveling of the playing field is coming.

CFraser

December 7th, 2019 at 4:52 PM ^

I’m not so worried about cash as much as letting football players have an online major at UM. It’s the lethal weapon of elite schools. No classes means more time to focus on football. 
 

It’s a lot easier to be elite at football if you don’t have to worry about going to class and what not. It’s an unreal advantage people overlook. Big deal IMO. 
 

Edit: Either that or scream to the NCAA to make a minimum of 75% of credits be in brick and mortar or risk letting everyone know what a mockery “student athlete” has become. 

OldTimerBlue

December 7th, 2019 at 5:04 PM ^

With so many voting to cheat, what is stopping us from doing this already? Maybe I’m naive but I assume that those who are cheating are doing so through boosters aka fans paying players and not money coming though the college. So the people who would have the power to cheat for us are the ones who are voting to do so. Makes you think huh?

bighouse22

December 7th, 2019 at 5:06 PM ^

I have come to the conclusion that the NCAA is quietly ok with the bagman approach.  They get to keep the proceeds from the money machine and the donors/bagmen pay the players under the table.  If that's the landscape, then all schools need to operate that way.  If they get caught they need initiate a lawsuit against the NCAA if they try to sanction any programs. 

They have set a precedent by not punishing teams that cheat.  So why do we even consider it cheating at this point.  The NCAA has already accepted this business model.

Very disappointing, but sure seems like the reality.

Coldwater

December 7th, 2019 at 5:13 PM ^

I voted yes.  I’m a fan of the Sports programs at U of M.    My allegiance isn’t to the University’s academic programs.    Give me wins over Ohio State!   
 

I don’t wake up in the morning with a sense of “moral superiority”   over Ohio State because Michigan doesn’t cheat.    I wake up in the morning pissed that I may never see a football victory over them ever again.  

Coldwater

December 7th, 2019 at 5:13 PM ^

I voted yes.  I’m a fan of the Sports programs at U of M.    My allegiance isn’t to the University’s academic programs.    Give me wins over Ohio State!   
 

I don’t wake up in the morning with a sense of “moral superiority”   over Ohio State because Michigan doesn’t cheat.    I wake up in the morning pissed that I may never see a football victory over them ever again.