Coach Harbaugh on the officiating versus PSU
“Will be interesting comparison some of the different scenarios in the game in terms of calls,” Harbaugh said after the game. “Lavert’s holding penalty that led to a touchdown on third and 11 versus a couple of those there at the end. Some of our receivers were getting tackled there the last couple plays.”
I spoke of this in another thread, but there were 4 pass interference or defensive holding non-calls (in the end zone) on the last 2 plays of Michigan's final offensive possession. There were several egregious calls and non-calls during the game. I say, if calm Harbaugh isn't going to get a fair shake, then to hell with it, be a raging maniac and take an occasional unsportsmanlike penalty. Maybe that will bring about some necessary respect or intimidation.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:03 AM ^
100% Agree
October 20th, 2019 at 11:04 AM ^
That was fucking pure horseshit last night by the refs. For all that is at stake for these schools, that performance is totally unacceptable. And yet, there is no accountability.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:54 AM ^
I agree. Home cooking. UM had so many more penalty yards than PSU. Fucking pure horse shit. .
October 20th, 2019 at 12:15 PM ^
Well, other than the fact that they didn't. Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm here.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:50 PM ^
Yeah just look at the box score for the whole picture as the no calls certainly show up in there - you fucking moron!
October 20th, 2019 at 3:03 PM ^
Momentum is variable the can’t be tracked after a bad called. When Herbie states there should have been DPI on the 4 and 3th slant, you know there is a imbalance.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:01 PM ^
Not jumping on the "blame the refs" wagon but # of penalties and penalty yards does not reflect the impact that calls have on a game even a little bit.
A false start on first down is almost meaningless. It puts you at 1st-and-15. Worse than 1st-and-10, sure, but at the end of the day it has a relatively small impact on a drive. Contrast that with a defensive holding penalty on a 3rd down stop. It might be easy to say, well, each team had one penalty and the difference is only five total yards. The fact of the matter is that the false start call did not determine the outcome of a set of downs -- and at most minimally contributed to a stalled drive -- while the defensive holding call did determine the outcome of a set of downs and significantly contributed to the drive.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:02 PM ^
Are most of the refs from Ohio or something?
Is there a serious bias against Michigan.
I used to ref hockey, errors happen all the time, make-up calls, let-em-play, and the don't-put-the-game-in-the-refs-hands, nature of sports reffing (and of course getting yelled at by both sides).
But UM/Lions really do seem to get screwed-over with such consistency, it's sort of unbelievable.
And I don't even watch the Lions, I just hear about it.
It's obvious that the refs hate Harbaugh, but it seems like Detroit also, so is it a State of Michigan things as a whole?
(sidenote: I remember thinking that the refs sometimes favored Hoke, and being surprised by calls going our way when Hoke was HC)
October 20th, 2019 at 2:07 PM ^
Big 10 refs always favor team with the best shot a playoff spot.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:34 PM ^
Yup. It's probably something less than nefarious though, like being worried that the Big Ten won't renew your contract if certain games don't turn out a certain way, as opposed to the conference orchestrating some type of criminal manipulation of games or refs being driven by some type of rooting interest.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:08 AM ^
I don't believe in refs trying to fix games, but I think they were really bad, and their incompetence crushed us at several key moments. In particular:
1. The Nico "PI" cost us at least three points
2. The missed PI when DPJ got tackled before the ball arrived cost us at least three points
3. The tight end push-off gave Penn State 7 points
4. Our receivers were getting tackled constantly on the last drive
5. The Levert Hill "hold" led to a Penn State touchdown on what should have been a 3 and out
To make things worse, it seemed like Penn State tended to make huge plays immediately following the blown calls. Huge momentum swings.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:10 AM ^
Don't forget the 4th and 3 to Tarik Black where their tiny CB went right thru his back well before the ball arrived. Down 7-0 at the time, which then ended our drive in scoring range. Next thing you know it's 14-0.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:48 AM ^
This was one that I think really potentially changed the look of the first half. Obviously there is no guarantee we would have put points on the board, but a new set of downs and getting the ball deeper in their territory would’ve been huge.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:43 PM ^
Felt exactly the same way watching that last night. Momentum killer, patently unfair and a point swing.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:59 PM ^
Non calls on obvious PI on 3rd and long or 4th and short that effectively kill drives are the clearest indicator that something's up. A middle high school ref should get those obvious calls right about 95% of the time. You're right there; you can see if the defender or the ball gets there first.
A team can work around a holding call or a non call on holding, but just like the 2016 OSU game there's really no way to win if your receivers aren't allowed to catch the ball. To catch one while being molested you sort of have to do the Collins of a little grabby yourself, and suddenly they call it offensive PI (when it was mutual at worst).
October 20th, 2019 at 11:19 AM ^
I don't think the refs are fixing game either - but clearly the game is moving so fast, they need replay to make sure they get all the plays right. Why not use reply for penalties as well? Maybe each team gets two penalty reviews?
October 20th, 2019 at 11:25 AM ^
I think it's simply that referees, being human beings, can get swept up in the home environment. Research in soccer suggests that homefield advantage is primarily due to officiating, and this would logically apply to other sports, too.
Imagine calling a game in a stadium with 100,000 people in it, 95% rooting for one side. You know that if you call penalties on the visitors you'll be applauded, and if you call them on the home team you'll be booed. It's tough for that not to affect you. And then it's a night game, meaning an even more raucous crowd than usual...
I'm sure it's a tough job. It just sucks to be on the short end of bad calls.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:06 PM ^
Yeah, it's a well-documented statistical phenomenon. People like to be liked, and it probably subconsciously biases referees in those types of environments. A big call for the home team leads to a lot of love.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:20 PM ^
Exactly right. Given a choice all humans would prefer to be liked than disliked and on a 50-50 play it's so easy to get caught up in the electricity of a crowd like last night.
They ran an experiment a few years ago in both football and basketball where the officials wote noise deadening headphones to shut off the fan feedback loop and the results were pretty dramatic. Calls evened out almost immediately but the officials HATED it because it proved what virtually every fan knows already. Officials, for all their "we're impartial bullshit" are heavily influenced by fan reaction.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:35 PM ^
If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt it, every AD and coach in the country should be lobbying to make that mandatory.
The game would be so much better to watch with unbiased officiating.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:48 PM ^
Or at least lobby to hire more deaf referees
October 20th, 2019 at 1:00 PM ^
50/50 calls are one thing, shit like the OPI on Collins can not be calls that are made no matter who is the home team
October 20th, 2019 at 12:53 PM ^
Water is wet. Home cooking applies in all big sports except maybe hockey and baseball. Why can’t coaches have two red flag challenges each half on penalties?
October 20th, 2019 at 11:31 AM ^
Dude, don't get me started on the Collins OPI. Holy shit, that was so fucking bad. I've watched that clip a few times and I can't figure out how they call OPI while completely ignoring the blatant DPI which happened FIRST!
DPJ had a legit, and stupid, OPI in this game. Rightfully called. But then the PSU TE pushed off Hudson (?) in the end zone to get open for the TD. No call. 7 points.
EDIT - I disagree with Lavert's hold. That's an easy call because Hill had both arms wrapped onto the guy. Whether the dude tripped on his own or not doesn't matter. You can't defend the receiver like that.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:49 PM ^
I only saw the replay once, but it looked like the guy tripped and fell into Lavert's arms. I don't think Lavert initiated contact. Maybe live it's difficult to ascertain that, but it seems clear to me that that guy tripped and bowled Lavert over more than Lavert actually grabbed him. Stupid, but maybe understandable call.
The no-call on the Black slant was awful. In real-time it looked questionable. On replay, oh my god...
The Nico OPI call was next-level horse-shit. Not sure how on earth they make that call, especially when they let the one against PSU go. If there are multiple fouls going back and forth between receiver and d-back, maybe just let them play, and you know, have the players decide the plays? Unreal...
October 20th, 2019 at 11:59 AM ^
So I'm not saying the refs last night tried to fix the game, but refs have been busted for fixing games in fifa and the NBA. There is no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt always.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:01 PM ^
I believe 100% that the refs are swayed by the home crowd. Last night was a perfect example. So was the JT was short call.
no way in hell the refs, when it’s a toss-up, aren’t going to give the ol’ “tie goes to the home crowd” call.
at least it seems this way.
I don’t have a problem with refs letting teams play a little rough AS LONG AS ITS CALLED THE SAME ON BOTH SIDES.
Anyway..proud of how the team fought back yesterday. Feel bad for Ronnie Bell. Thought shea played well enough for us to win.
I realize KJ hamler is going to get you a couple times but man, I really hate to see Metellus 5 yards behind as the pass is going up. Let’s avoid that matchup 100% of the time. Granted , it’s better than McCray chasing but still.
last night gave me some hope for the remaining schedule. All those games could go either way. And I feel lame our home field advantage gives us the nod...except for against OSU. But, anything can happen. As we all saw in the Illinois Wisky game yesterday.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:46 PM ^
What really sucks is that's how Penn State beat us, by the long bomb. Take those away and we win going away. That's something that really bugs me about Coach Brown; he doesn't seem to realize there is a big difference playing Army or some MAC school - schools that don't have the talent to take advantage of this weakness - and the Ohio States and Penn States of this world. Last year, that's how Ohio State won, by taking advantage of weaknesses, and that's how Penn State won this year. What is going to have to happen in order for him to change things up when we play top talent schools?
October 20th, 2019 at 12:09 PM ^
Fixing the game implies that the refs got together before it started and decided to call it so one team wins. I don't believe that's happening, but Harbaugh is such a polarizing figure that bias - IMO - is playing a much bigger role than it does in other games.
And honestly, I have no idea why people hate Harbaugh like they do! He hasn't made any promises. He hasn't talked shit - unless responding to others that are crapping on his program. (And he should, absolutely, defend his program!) He's genuine, and I guess people don't respect that. Dimtania and Saban shit all over fans, coaches, players, reporters, all the damn time and people laugh it off. If Harbaugh talked like they do, he'd be shit on from all corners, relentlessly.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^
Who hates Harbaugh? Down here in SEC country, no one cares or they think he's a joke, Ohio fans love him. Why would anyone care about the coach of the third best team in the big ten east?
October 20th, 2019 at 5:26 PM ^
Fixing the game does not mandate that all refs or even more than one are in on the take. Any individual ref has the ability to throw the wrong flag (collins opi) or not throw a flag. Usually if you are the closest everyone else will defer to you. Three ish of these drive killers/extenders and you've probably done a 10pt swing.
Not a rational discussion if the assumption is no fixing because all would have to be in on it.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:12 PM ^
In the first half, Shea was hit on a slide and there was also an uncalled delayed hit on Bell when he was out of bounds. I know there were bigger missed calls in that first half, but it just seems like we couldn't get even just a little break, which could've helped us gain some much needed traction. On the Hill call, I understood it in the moment 'cause Hill was playing aggressive/had his hands in a bad spot when the guy slipped. But it's tough looking at that play in comparison to how the rest of the game was called.
I know we could've played better in the first 20 some minutes, but bad officiating affects games (like Florida vs. South Carolina). And as a Lions fan, I was questioning the point of following football once halftime came around. I'm not asking for bad calls to make up for bad calls, I just want it called fairly. And I know I have some bias, but man, it doesn't seem like it goes that way.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:36 PM ^
A friend of a friend is a Big Ten official. They said that the OSU 2016 game was “rigged.”
October 20th, 2019 at 1:53 PM ^
I chose to believe this.
October 20th, 2019 at 2:21 PM ^
They’re all rigged. It’s all about the cash.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
Michigan got jobbed, but that was a legit hold on Lavert.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:10 AM ^
The officials are probably on the take. There was A LOT of money betting on Penn State winning that game.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:14 AM ^
Never blame it on malaise, what can be explained by incompetence.
I want them to be consistent, the refs, that's all.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:27 AM ^
Strange they were competent enough to point all their incompetence in the same direction
October 20th, 2019 at 11:50 AM ^
You mean malice
October 20th, 2019 at 11:26 AM ^
I don't think the officials were on the take. The home team generally gets the favorable calls. But last night's game was more one sided than normal, by my eyes.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:46 AM ^
Except they didn't cover the spread so there goes that
October 20th, 2019 at 12:45 PM ^
maybe, but there were a lot of money, maybe more money betting UM to cover which they did. I'd also lean to incompetence over bias. Coaches have for a long time, contacted the big-10 office with a list of plays where they think the wrong call or no call was made.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:11 AM ^
I don't know what it is about Michigan, but man the universe hates us.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:57 AM ^
We've been getting fucked by officiating since Bo was coaching. Either they're on the take, or they just don't like the arrogant asses of Ann Arbor.
Probably because they couldn't get in.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:12 AM ^
Perhaps the team, with assistance from various skill sets across the university, should be collecting and editing film to present to the NCAA in a straightforward manner. Pure evidence presented in an unemotional format, coupled with a rule book legalese narrative. This would at least let it be known that officiating teams are being watched.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:24 AM ^
You think the ncaa cares? They are too busy punishing Missouri while letting Kansas and UNC cheat away.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:11 PM ^
I agree with this, but think it should be presented to the public, not the ncaa. The ncaa doesn’t give a shit. If harbaugh showed up at the Sunday or Monday press conference with an iPad and clips of blown calls and comparisons of inconsistent calls vs non calls (while naming the specific ref that threw each flag or was in position to make a call but didn’t) he’d get a huge fine, but it would also be extremely impactful.
A 100k fine is equivalent value to less than 1 win for harbaugh. He needs to start taking it to the officials. Being passive and playing the “higher road” card is for chumps. Beilein did it and it cost M a national title.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:13 PM ^
This was done after OSU 2016. You can still find the videos online. Did it make a difference because anyone cares, other than us? I like the thought, but the NCAA and B1G offices don't give a shit. For TV ratings, any attention is good attention.
October 20th, 2019 at 4:30 PM ^
I agree. The smartest play of a bunch of unsatisfying and ineffective plays is to simply say, "Refs are doing their best in a difficult job. We need to play better so as not to be dependent on the calls of refs."
Then complain formally at NCAA office later and discreetly.
Last night was bullshit.