The Athletic: How Kentucky has outhustled Michigan for Ohio recruits
In a lengthy profile of Kentucky recruiting coordinator Vince Marrow ($), who Mel Tucker is reportedly trying to bring to Michigan State, Ari Wasserman (The Athletic's OSU beat writer) describes how Kentucky has focused on taking OSU's Ohio leftovers away from Big Ten schools like Michigan. Michigan is behind not only OSU, but also Kentucky, ND, and MSU in recruiting 4- and 5-star prospects from Ohio:
Ohio always has been a main source of Big Ten talent, but a lot of that talent now is headed to Kentucky. UK identified the niche and attacked it, using Ohio-born coaches.
In the past seven recruiting cycles (2014-20), there were 93 four- and five-star prospects in Ohio. Ohio State predictably signed the most (38), followed by Kentucky (10), Notre Dame (eight), Michigan State (seven) and Michigan (five); the rest of the Big Ten has signed five total. That means Kentucky has signed almost 10 percent of the blue-chip prospects in Ohio in that span.
That’s a stark difference from what was happening before Stoops got to UK. In the 2009-2013 classes, there were 88 four- and five-star players in Ohio — and UK signed two. Ohio State (39) and Michigan (17) were the dominant schools.
Sense the pattern? Before Stoops and Marrow arrived at Kentucky, the Wildcats weren’t a factor in Ohio. Since Stoops and Marrow brought Kentucky into Ohio, the Wildcats have signed more blue-chip Ohio prospects than anybody outside of OSU. Not only that, Kentucky has signed more total Ohio prospects (47, one more than Michigan State) than any Big Ten school not named Ohio State...
Michigan, meanwhile, barely even attempts to recruit Ohio anymore even though the state has provided the Wolverines some of their best players over the years. The reason for these things happening? Marrow slips back into his chair and grins.
“The only team we have to track in Ohio is Ohio State because if they want an Ohio kid and recruit him the right way from the beginning, they are likely going to get them. But every other team, I’m not worried about them because we have beaten all of them for recruits in Ohio,” Marrow said, “What’s going on at other schools? I’m not going to say anything. You can come up with your own conclusion by what you see in the numbers. The proof is in the pudding.”
Kentucky is willing to take prospects that Michigan won't take—sure—and Kentucky may also be doing below-board things. But I'm curious to know how much Michigan is preemptively conceding these recruits to other schools.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:28 PM ^
Although I agree with the sentiment that UM is not focusing enough on OH, I'm not sure how many OH kids Kentucky has beaten out UM for. I get the feeling they are taking them more from MSU. But, I also don't want any part of Marrow at MSU. That's probably not a good thing for UM who is already not doing a great job with some top in-state recruits the past few cycles like Rogers, Payne, Carr, Jennings, Brown, Dobbs, Barnett, etc. They really need to nail down Spindler and Edwards, & do some work on Dellinger for 2021.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:31 PM ^
"Out-hustled." Quite a euphemism for things that might not exactly be legal... but an SEC school would never cheat, right?
February 12th, 2020 at 1:32 PM ^
A whole lotta nothing in that article. It feels like they just looked at 247 rankings and said "they had an offer from UM, so clearly they picked UK over them", which is the type of specious logic I'm starting to see sneak into The Athletic as they move toward, you guessed it, the more click-baity articles.
UK recruits reasonably well; it's an SEC program nearby. But there's little evidence that Michigan, ND, PSU, etc. lose recruits to them in any significant manner. I'm sure MSU and schools of that ilk do, but that's not particularly interesting.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:00 PM ^
Honestly thought this was going to be a Maizen thread, but CF is legit.
And so is the question. As long as Michigan is getting out-recruited by OSU (and we are, decisively), questions like this are worth asking. Maybe Kentucky is getting guys we don't want, and maybe Michigan is simply using its resources where they will be more effective... but Michigan needs athletes to compete with OSU, and if they're losing out on guys that could contribute to programs like Kentucky, it should be discussed.
CF's invocation of Notre Dame is on point here. We shouldn't be out-recruited by ND in Ohio.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:08 PM ^
We shouldn't be out-recruited by ND in Ohio.
Not disagreeing with you, but why? ND is also a blue blood program that borders OH. I know UM has a long history of OH kids like Woodson & Desmond, but for all I know ND does too. What is unique about UM that it should be able to better recruit OH over ND?
February 12th, 2020 at 3:04 PM ^
Please stop begging that dude to come back.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:44 PM ^
The Catholic factor with ND is something that has to be factored in. So it really isn't a fair comparison between UM and ND. ND recruits the national network of Catholic high schools, Ohio included, hard.
I'm not sure where they get 10 for ND. I did a quick search of ND recruiting classes on Wikipedia and I only found eight 4 or 5 stars in their listed classes. There were two consensus 3 stars, so maybe that is how you'd get to 10 for ND but that doesn't match up with the statement in the OP. Either way it looks like the kids ND gets out of Ohio are mostly Catholic school kids. six out of the 8 listed below are.
I know that Michigan does pretty well with the Michigan Catholic Schools, but should we have the same expectations for Ohio Cathlic schools?
2014 Jimmy Byrne - St Ignatius HS Cleveland, OH (Catholic)
2014 Daniel Cage (Scout 4*, Rivals 3*) - Winton Woods HS Cleveland, OH (Public)
2014 DeShone Kizer - Central Catholic HS Toledo, OH (Catholic)
2015 Shaun Crawford - St Edwards HS Lakewood, OH (Catholic)
2015 Elijah Taylor - Moeller HS Cincinnati, OH (Catholic)
2016 Liam Echenberg - St Ignatius HS Cleveland, OH (Catholic)
2016 Tommy Kraemer - Elder HS Cincinnati, OH (Catholic)
2019 Zeke Correll - Anderson HS Cincinnati, OH (Public)
February 12th, 2020 at 3:57 PM ^
We aren't outrecruited by ND in ohio. We are out recruited by ND at private catholic schools in Cincinnati which makes complete sense.
We do need athletes to compete, we need elite top 50 in the country athletes. How many top 50 guys are coming out of Ohio? How many of those are going to Kentucky? I don't want to be Kentucky I want to compete for championships, OSU started all of 6 guys from Ohio last year and zero at any skill positions. Congrats on Kentucky convincing a couple kids who maybe would have been depth at a top 15 school to go be starters at Kentucky. That means nothing if your goal is for Michigan to get over the 9-10 and lose to OSU hump
February 12th, 2020 at 2:34 PM ^
“Outhustled”...yea ok...I’m sure that’s it
February 12th, 2020 at 2:45 PM ^
Just pay the players already. Preferably on the books. Start our own athletic association. Leaders and Best.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:57 PM ^
Ari Wasserman carries water for Ohio State. The Athletic has done a great job for the most part but the only thing separating Wasserman from the rest of the bootlickers on the Ohio State beat is he knows how to write. Michigan brought in six guys from Ohio in the 2019 class.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:03 PM ^
People are avoiding the real issue here. It's not UK or MSU. It's the fact that OSU has locked down the state of Ohio which has been a real key to their dominance. It would like UT locking down Texas for recruits and Oklahoma going elsewhere.
February 12th, 2020 at 9:21 PM ^
I would argue Ohio State pulling a bunch of kids out of places like Texas and Cali has helped them more. Texas and USC struggles have really helped them.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:13 PM ^
Chicken and egg situation isnt it. We cant get Ohios best because we cant beat OSU, we cant beat OSU because we dont have Ohios best.
But if we went heavy on guys OSU doesnt recruit hard in their own backyard, youd also blame us losing to OSU on that.
Truth is that Kentucky can go after guys who arent set on the Big Ten as a destination. Its the closest SEC school to Ohio. Its a similar pitch to TAMU in Texas. Of course Kentucky wasnt a serious player for a long time as they werent seen as interested in football. Once they started “investing” Ohios 2nd tier players were always an obvious target.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:23 PM ^
Cincinnati airport is in Kentucky and for that metro area, UK is the closest major program. We should be going hard for kids from Toledo and Cleveland though at least.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:00 PM ^
Assuming by major program you mean P5.
Is the difference between a 2hr drive and 1hr 30 min drive that much of a difference? I'd assume the cultural ties of actually being from Ohio would more than make up the difference in proximity between OSU and UK.
Cincinnati -> OSU: ~110 miles, 2hr drive
Cincinnati -> UK: ~80 miles, 1hr 30min drive
Cincinnati -> UL: ~100 miles, 1hr 45min drive
Cincinnati -> IU: ~130 miles, 2hr 30min drive
February 12th, 2020 at 9:27 PM ^
It’s not the drive alone. Cincinnati has a ton of Kentucky commuters and is culturally more similar to northern Kentucky than Columbus. People from Cincinnati go to Kentucky to do things and people from Kentucky frequent Cincinnati. If you live down there, there’s not much reason to go to Columbus. You’ll see noticeably less OSU gear there and noticeably more KU gear there compared to other parts of Ohio.
February 13th, 2020 at 9:54 AM ^
And you see more UM gear in Toledo than say Cleveland. But the majority, and a likely strong one at that, are going to be OSU fans.
February 14th, 2020 at 10:10 AM ^
Dude...how slow you driving? haha 80 miles is an 1:10 tops
February 12th, 2020 at 3:36 PM ^
I wish our recruiting was better. But articles like this don't move the needle much for me. People will get bugged and attack and defend but the objective reality is while we all want better recruiting, our recruiting isn't bad. Excluding the 1st year we have 3/4 top 10 classes.
2019: 8
2018: 22
2017: 5
2016: 8
2015: 37
2014: 20
2013: 4
Attrition is an issue, of course, but much of that attrition is coming from guys who weren't going to play much. We have guys going to the NFL.
Where I'd like to see us improve is getting those high 4* and 5* recruits. But to get those guys I don't know that Ohio is the best place to put our resources given Ohio's current run and the loyalty they naturally have in the State.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:51 PM ^
Does not matter which state recruits in Ohio. What matters is that Harbaugh SHOULD be recruiting Ohio very hard. Ohio prep football is excellent. What is ridiculous is that Jim Harbaugh knows this because Bo, Mo and Loyd recruited the hell out of Ohio and most of Michigan's best players came out of Ohio like Charles Woodson. In fact, Harbaugh's BEST team at Michigan was loaded with Ohio talent that Hoke recruited himself. Harbaugh should be recruiting Ohio and those kids play in cold weather unlike a kid out of Florida or Georgia.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:59 PM ^
It it is so excellent why is the vast majority of the OSU two deep guys from outside Ohio and mostly from warm weather states like Florida, Texas, etc.? This is such a dumb statement.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:23 PM ^
Your stupid and don’t understand prep football. Stick to your MacBook and Starbucks
February 12th, 2020 at 8:57 PM ^
You’re, not your.
I can respect an abrasive personality, but you come off like a whiny bitch. There’s a shit ton wrong with Michigan football, but recruiting Ohio or not isn’t even in the top 20.
February 12th, 2020 at 6:39 PM ^
OSU recruiting has been off the charts since Meyer's arrival and they've made a point of going hard after the very best recruits nationally unlike Tressel who concentrated on Ohio and then filled in the rest with national recruits. They've been taking 6 to 8 out of Ohio and the rest from all over.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:02 PM ^
Uh, no. Harbaugh should recruit highly talented kids that fit his system. Where their childhood house is makes no difference whatsoever.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:43 PM ^
I'm guessing you think the 2016 team was our best team, but those Ohio guys are a prime example of give and take. For every Taco and Jake Butt, we had a Kinnel and McCray who literally lost us games (against OSU, no less) because they were too slow and didn't match the talent level of OSU
OSU takes the best players from each state. We shouldn't fill out our roster with unsigned Ohio players just because that's what we did in the past
February 12th, 2020 at 4:08 PM ^
It does seem that we get outworked a lot. I think that sometimes we depend upon Michigan to “recruit itself” too much. I’m sure we still have a touch of arrogance about the opportunity to be a Michigan Man. These kids are 16-18....they want to feel the love. I don’t think we do that very well.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:17 PM ^
Am I oversimplifying this by pointing out the Michigan's class is ranked comfortably higher than Kentucky's? I think this is neat and good for Kentucky, but the blowback on Michigan seems nonexistent. If we recruit a better class than them, why do I care that they are getting more recruits in Ohio? It seems like slicing a small bit of data to obfuscate a larger, class-wide, nationwide picture. Michigan's recruiting woes don't really relate to Kentucky. They pretty much only relate to Ohio State.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:23 PM ^
Kentucky has also missed out on the top talent in their own state.
According to 247 the top six recruits out of Kentucky in 2019 ended up at Nebraska, Stanford, ND, VT, Purdue and Alabama. They were all mid to high 4* and top 300 kids.
In 2020, their two top recruits ended up at ND (5* TE) and Clemson (high 4* OL). (Those were the only top 300 recruits in last years class from Kentucky.)
I guess what I'm saying is that there are probably more reasons than just being outrecruited and "outhustled" for recruits when looking at the big picture. They can't even lock up the top kids in Kentucky. Would I like for UM to have more 4 and 5* recruits from Ohio...sure, but I'm not going to point to that as a reason we can't win a game. And I'm not sure what "proof in the pudding" he is referring to, but if that's in reference to us not beating OSU then I'm calling bullshit on that.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:35 PM ^
Making a mountain out of a molehill
Recruiting is so national now that protecting your home state means almost nothing. How many guys from Texas, Maryland, Georgia, New Jersey, etc. are the stars of OSU? Not kids from Ohio. Our best players this year are from Colorado, California, Alabama, and a few good ones from Michigan.
People shine the spotlight on Kentucky because they don't go 1-11 anymore but they still have one year over .500 in conference play the last decade and that's in the EAST where you get to play Vanderbilt, Missouri, and Tennessee every year. They're the northwestern of the SEC with one fewer division title. Picking up Ohio scraps is not worth our time when we get guys like Charbonnet and Collins from all over the country
February 12th, 2020 at 4:40 PM ^
This is just another pile on, narrative article by an Ohioan emphasizing Ohio's importance for the sole purpose of shitting on Harbaugh and Michigan. Fuck them.
February 12th, 2020 at 5:34 PM ^
Anyone think our roster is better or worse from Harbaugh’s first season?
Jh needs to hit a few more in Mich/oh/penn/ind/ill but overall start beating Osu and it changes. The obvious water is wet comment
February 12th, 2020 at 5:34 PM ^
Michigan doesn’t even have recruiting meetings!!!!!
February 12th, 2020 at 5:46 PM ^
Fuck Ohio. Harbaugh don’t need no Ohio kids. He’s doing just fine recruiting the hell out of Massachusetts and Connecticut. The real football hotbeds!
February 13th, 2020 at 12:22 AM ^
Not recruiting Ohio seriously enough, one of the failures of the Harbaugh era.
February 13th, 2020 at 5:03 AM ^
Hoke recruited the shit out of Ohio and got a ton of NFL guys...
Harbaugh...not so much...
Why?
February 13th, 2020 at 5:06 AM ^
Was listenting to Jon Janson and some former UCLA player on Sirius radio ESPN U today talking Recruiting.....both agreed that Weather...has a TON to do with where a player ends up. Janson grew up in Michigan and had zero problem with going to Michigan... the UCLA guy (never got his name) went on a recruiting trip to Montana and it was so cold for him coming from CA, he decided to stay home.
The weather to many Ohio kids will not be a factor in deciding to go to Michigan. Michigan got its Heisman winners from Ohio in the 90s.
February 13th, 2020 at 10:31 AM ^
Weather has some to do with it but I think there is more to do with it than that to each recruit. So many things, want to get away from home or stay close to home. Academics or nfl. Head coach or position coach. Fan of in state or other school.
I do think the transfer portal has a lot to do with kids far from home wanting to get closer when things don't go right for them in their fr or so years.
February 14th, 2020 at 5:51 PM ^
Update just now. Vince Marrow staying around UK. I’d rather recruiters go to KY than MSU.