Art of Coaching - Saban & Belicheck
Did anyone watch the HBO Sports doc on Saban and Belichek? Thoughts?
Watching these guys interact really makes you appreciate the genius of them both. They seem to just be different than almost every other coach out there. I've always known Belichek was a different guy but in my opinion, Saban was like Phil Jackson, a guy who coached greater talent than the teams they played.
Either way, things like this tend to give a nice insight into these guys lives and minds and coaching acumen. The thing I thought was most interesting was right at the beginning, when Nick was telling Bill that there are probably 30 teams in the NFL that don't call him about players they draft. I think this is something I just assumed was commonplace and am a bit surprised that it isn't.
Saban was DB in college, minoring in Sports Psychology.
Belichek was a center in college and majored in economics.
They met in the late 70s when Nick worked at Navy and Bill's dad was on the staff.
Belichek hired him on his staff as a DC with the Browns.
Saban talks about manually reviewing game tape. Having to get it developed, and manually cutting, labeling and taping it back together. They are both remarkably old-school in their approach. As much as they seem to appreciate the advances with computers, they both seem to believe that the game is still about the guys on the field more than the analytics.
They both talk about how they had to learn to coach players differently. Back in college, you coached guys the way you coached and if they didn't get it, then they didn't play. Nick said he learned from coaching the Browns, that once they owner pays someone, you have to play them, so you can't coach everyone the same. That also led him to adapting his defense to his personnel.
Also of note, they talk about how when Nick left the Browns, he didn't take any of Bill's assistants with him. They talk about it as a respect thing, and they would like to see their assistants go build their own program instead of "tearing down" the one they just left by poaching coaches. Pertinent now since Kiffin is doing just that at Ole Miss.
Nick and Bill also mentioned that they bring guys in to do things their way, instead of the other way around. Nick says, when they hire a new assistant or coordinator, they are the only one out of hundreds of people who don't know the terminology so why should everyone else have to learn the new way? This is an interesting approach and it makes sense. I wonder how many coaches do that? It's not so much not adapting schemes and playbooks, but using existing terminology might make the transition a little easier on everyone.
Anyways, there's a lot more, I thought it was an interesting watch for those who really like this kinda stuff.
December 13th, 2019 at 10:49 AM ^
For as much hate Bill Simmons gets for some of his takes, he is spot on about Nick Saban. He downplays Saban's success because of his failed run in the NFL.
Simmons says that Saban is staying college because he know he has an advantage at getting the best players and it makes his coaching job easier. He says if he were truly one of the great all-time coaches, he would go back to the NFL and succeed.
One coach I think people aren't talking about enough this year is John Harbaugh. I know he has Lamar Jackson and Greg Roman as his OC, but he has to be given credit for the change that he has welcomed this year and his willingness to welcome analytics to his playcalling.
December 13th, 2019 at 11:03 AM ^
I do however think he has an opportunity to change that narrative. Let's say he takes the Cowboys job. It's evident that Bama is not the juggernaut it used to be because there are so many other teams recruiting at a higher level. Plus, imagine sticking it to Lane Kiffin, by leaving Bama now. 3rd, Dallas has a good roster, and they are really just a coach away from being potentially elite. And how many coaches have the personality to fend off/deal with Jerry Jones? He could step in, potentially take an already talented team to the next level and seem like a genius again.
December 13th, 2019 at 11:08 AM ^
If Jerry Jones finally fires Jason Garrett, then I think their first call is to either Matt Rhule or Lincoln Riley. If I were a Cowboys fan, I would be hoping for one of those two over Saban
December 13th, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
That will likely be where he goes and I can see why. But I think it's safe to say Saban is still the best college football coach in the last 50(?) years, if not all time. He's younger than Pete Carroll so the age thing is moot. And if you are either one of those guys, who don't have the cache to walk into the Cowboys and tell the Jones family what they will not do, would you be ok being micromanaged on that stage? I think Saban is one of the very very FEW people who could command respect from everyone in the building. I think Jones talking about how brilliant Belichek is a few weeks ago...ehh..why not hire his most successful protege.
December 13th, 2019 at 1:31 PM ^
I think you're right about Saban to the Cowboys, I think he'd like very much from a competitive standpoint to face his mentor and friend on the biggest stage football has to offer.
The ratings for that game would be astronomical.
December 13th, 2019 at 11:30 AM ^
You think Saban leaving Bama would stick it to Kiffin? Huh?
December 13th, 2019 at 12:19 PM ^
Um, yes. Haven't you read anything about Kiffin the last 3 years? Or the last 3 weeks? He's hiring as many former Bama guys as possible, he went after Saban's S&C guy. He pokes him on Twitter constantly.
From the Athletic:
Lane Kiffin is gunning for Nick Saban.
It’s been nearly three years since Saban unceremoniously fired Kiffin, his offensive coordinator, two days after Alabama beat Washington in the 2016 College Football Playoff semifinal at the Peach Bowl. Saban fired Kiffin a week before the national championship game. Kiffin was embarrassed. Kiffin was angry. Kiffin hasn’t forgotten.
That dismissal fueled Kiffin’s desire to return to the SEC and a burning passion to exact revenge on Saban, multiple people with knowledge of the matter told The Athletic. Now that he’s the head coach at Ole Miss, he sees the chance to do so.
So yes, I think if Saban leaves Bama now, Kiffin will be pissed.
December 13th, 2019 at 1:57 PM ^
Interesting take but I doubt Saban gives Kiffin much thought. And it's not like Kiffin was ever going to get within 100 miles of the Bama HC job.
December 13th, 2019 at 2:12 PM ^
I don't think Saban would do it to spite Lane, I think it would just be something to smirk at, as he boards his private jet to Dallas.
December 13th, 2019 at 11:37 AM ^
I think being unable to grayshirt a third of his roster has certainly helped even up talent.
December 13th, 2019 at 3:34 PM ^
It also sort be he isf bored. You have to wonder guys that have won multiple titles like him what's the goal. Almost anything he does nowadays is going to feel like a let down outside of winning it all. That is some very high expectations to hold up too
December 13th, 2019 at 1:28 PM ^
As usual, Bill Simmons is full of shit.
You could flip that argument around and say that Bill Belichick has been so successful because he’s had Tom Brady around for almost 20 years and, if Drew Bledsoe hadn’t gotten his ribs crushed, there’s no way he wins 6 Super Bowls. So in order for him to prove he’s truly a great coach he needs to go the college level where you can’t ride a GOAT QB for more than a few seasons.
Saying a great college coach isn’t truly a great coach because he hasn’t done it the NFL level is asinine.
December 13th, 2019 at 2:00 PM ^
There's no denying that coaching in college is more about recruiting than anything else. That's why the teams with the best recruits usually win the most. Saban is a phenomenal recruiter and it has made his life much easier.
I'm not saying Saban isn't a great football coach and neither is Bill Simmons. All that's being argued is that Saban has more he could accomplish in football overall. He's dominated college, but I think we would all agree coaching and winning in the NFL is tougher because the talent gap is much much much lower.
December 13th, 2019 at 7:18 PM ^
I know that no one is saying that Saban isn’t a great coach because of his NFL record. I’m just saying the door swings both ways with this doing it at the next level argument.
As great as BB is, the fact is he’s had Tom Brady his QB for the past 20 years. What If Drew Bledsoe never gets hurt and Brady possibly decides to go to another team or gets traded, then are we even having this conversation?
Saban went to an NFL team and it didn’t work. Belichick and Pete Carroll we’re failures at their first HC jobs in the NFL as well. Maybe if Saban takes a second opportunity, he joins that success, maybe he doesn’t. But I wouldn’t bet against him
December 13th, 2019 at 2:09 PM ^
I get what you're saying, but football isn't a game where 1 player wins you games. Belichek had great defenses in his first run of super bowls. He's won despite horrible drafting of wrs in an era increasingly hailed as becoming a pass-centric sport. They have had very few offensive stars to go with Brady, other than guys Brady makes look good. He completely changed the idea that your wrs are your best receiving threats. 2 athletic tight ends on linebackers, while your excellent corners cover guys that get 2 catches per game? Revolutionary. Belichek has 6 rings, over nearly 20 years with fewer Hall of Famers than the 95 Cowboys or the 88 49ers.
Comparing that...to Nick Saban, who had a 9 win year at Toledo, followed by 4 of 5 years winning 6 or 7 games at MSU. The he gets to LSU (plenty of talent) and wins a title. 500 record with the Dolphins, followed by going to Bama and in year 2, going 12-2.
Biggest difference is, do you think Nick Saban can win at Vandy? Illinois? Maryland? Utah? Belichek has shown that he can beat you between the ears. Saban shows he can beat you on the recruiting trail so he doesn't have to beat you with x's and o's.
And if you don't think someone as competitive as these high level coaches don't wonder whether or not they can be as successful at a higher level, you're kidding yourself. It's one thing to win at chess if you have 2 queens on the board and the other team only has rooks, but if everyone has the same pieces, can you still win?
December 13th, 2019 at 3:51 PM ^
At this point a guy like Saban or Meyer can win at any top 30 program in CFB because they are essentially their own brand - selling success.
So yeah, I'm sure either of them could go to an Oklahoma State, Colorado, Mississippi State at this point and build a juggernaut - so long as their recruiting and "academic" standards are accepted by the respective school's administrations.
Could they have done this at traditionally mediocre programs before their successes at blue bloods like LSU and UF, I doubt it.
December 13th, 2019 at 7:08 PM ^
I totally agree with your out Belichick because I’ve seen enough Pats games where he has totally out schemed the other team. And when it comes to finding players of varying talent levels to plug into a system and make work, he’s the best there’s ever been. But the fact remains that for all those SB wins, he’s had the GOAT of the most important position on the team lining up under center.
The one thing that takes the shine off of Belichick’s brilliance in my mind is, if he’s such a football genius, then why did he have Brady cooling his heels on the sideline? Granted, no one on earth ever expected Brady to become the best QB who ever lived, but Belichick saw him in practice everyday and decided he wasn’t even starting material. What if Drew Bledsoe doesn’t get destroyed and he has no choice but to play Brady? Does Tom maybe decide to go to another team as a FA? Are we having this conversation about Belichick’s greatness?
And yeah Saban flamed out with the Dolphins, but sometimes even great coaches end up in a situation where they aren’t successful. Belichick got fired from Cleveland, Pete Carroll got fired from NE, Phil Jackson was a disaster with the Knicks. Obviously Saban didn’t have success with the Dolphins, but it doesn’t mean he couldn’t do it in the NFL with another team. It’ll be interesting to see if he ever takes another opportunity.
December 13th, 2019 at 1:28 PM ^
As usual, Bill Simmons is full of shit.
You could flip that argument around and say that Bill Belichick has been so successful because he’s had Tom Brady around for almost 20 years and, if Drew Bledsoe hadn’t gotten his ribs crushed, there’s no way he wins 6 Super Bowls. So in order for him to prove he’s truly a great coach he needs to go the college level where you can’t ride a GOAT QB for more than a few seasons.
Saying a great college coach isn’t truly a great coach because he hasn’t done it the NFL level is asinine.
December 13th, 2019 at 3:36 PM ^
obviously a great coach but he is 52 and 63 lifetime without Brady starting a game. Does make you wonder how his career plays out without a Hall of Fame quarterback as there's eight years of data saying he wasn't even average
December 13th, 2019 at 3:36 PM ^
obviously a great coach but he is 52 and 63 lifetime without Brady starting a game. Does make you wonder how his career plays out without a Hall of Fame quarterback as there's eight years of data saying he wasn't anything special.
December 13th, 2019 at 7:41 PM ^
Saban took two moribund programs and turned them into superpowers. Bill Simmons is a dumb motherfucker.
December 14th, 2019 at 1:03 AM ^
In 24 seasons as a head coach in college, Nick Saban has won six national titles. In 25 seasons as an NFL coach, Bill Belichick has won six Super Bowls and has a shot at a seventh. At this point, it seems clear that they are competing against each other for rings.
If your argument is that a recruited/bagged pool is easier than a drafted/free agent pool then I don't know how you can prove that. They are different challenges. Belichick as GM and coach is not that dissimilar from navigating the NCAA, geographic, demographic, and scholastic challenges posed by college football. There are different rules and the guy with six Super Bowl rings is videotaping the sidelines of next week's 1-11 opponent while the other coach has dealerships lined up to lease cars to any five star that is on instagram.
You cite John Harbaugh as an unheralded success and while that may be, he has had wonderful management and fans yet only one championship in 12 seasons. Does that mean he is worse than Belichick or Saban? Of course not. Injuries, suspensions, contracts, transfers, and all kinds of other unpredictable circumstances arise over the course of a season. Has Nick Saban won all of his national titles with at least one common player? What about Belichick's Super Bowls? Different challenges.
December 13th, 2019 at 11:05 AM ^
They seem to just be different than almost every other coach out there
I think there are a number of ways to get at the same thing. Although these two may be very similar in their approaches they are very different than say Dabo or Urban, both of which are very successful. I think you have to be authentic. You have to be yourself otherwise people will see through it and it won't work.
They both talk about how they had to learn to coach players differently. Back in college, you coached guys the way you coached and if they didn't get it, then they didn't play. Nick said he learned from coaching the Browns, that once they owner pays someone, you have to play them, so you can't coach everyone the same. That also led him to adapting his defense to his personnel.
I think this may be one aspect JH and DB are not great at as they are more old school like Bo who notoriously said "I'm going to treat them all the same...like dogs." I think this is one of Urban's best qualities. He may get flack for giving preferential treatment or letting star players get away with stuff, but there's no denying it was effective on the field. And, although DB seemed more willing to adapt scheme to fit personnel this year, I think that has been a struggle in the past and probably not his strong suit.
December 13th, 2019 at 12:21 PM ^
There are definitely different ways. Not to say that Urban or Dabo are wrong or worse, but Saban and Belichek are unique in their own way to coaching, and more often then not, they are successful.
December 13th, 2019 at 11:08 AM ^
They seem to just be different than almost every other coach out there
I think there are a number of ways to get at the same thing. Although these two may be very similar in their approaches they are very different than say Dabo or Urban, both of which are very successful. I think you have to be authentic. You have to be yourself otherwise people will see through it and it won't work.
They both talk about how they had to learn to coach players differently. Back in college, you coached guys the way you coached and if they didn't get it, then they didn't play. Nick said he learned from coaching the Browns, that once they owner pays someone, you have to play them, so you can't coach everyone the same. That also led him to adapting his defense to his personnel.
I think this may be one aspect JH and DB are not great at as they are more old school like Bo who notoriously said "I'm going to treat them all the same...like dogs." I think this is one of Urban's best qualities. He may get flack for giving preferential treatment or letting star players get away with stuff, but there's no denying it was effective on the field. And, although DB seemed more willing to adapt scheme to fit personnel this year, I think that has been a struggle in the past and probably not his strong suit.
December 13th, 2019 at 1:58 PM ^
I think Saban has mellowed somewhat and in his younger days he had a much bigger old school streak in him.
There’s a story that was widely circulated, and that I heard from first hand source, that when he took the MSU job he was extremely unhappy with what he believed was a team that had become soft and lazy under Perles’ last few years.
To show he meant business, he came into the weight room at the MSU football facility, which had just undergone a renovation, ripped one of the newly installed TVs down, whipped out his dick and pissed it on it, and said “Now this place looks like a proper weight room” and stormed out.
Apparently for the rest of the workout session no one, player or coach, said a single word.
December 13th, 2019 at 2:40 PM ^
I'm guessing that probably voided the warranty.
December 13th, 2019 at 11:19 AM ^
Each of us are informed by our own set of circumstances and life experiences. Each of us are uniquely gifted. I learned a very powerful, first-hand lesson over 50 years ago as a high school player: Coaching is a huge difference-maker.
I find what Belichick does year after year at New England to be astounding. I hope he stays on a few years past Brady...I think they will hardly miss a beat post Brady and maybe a hater or two will finally discover some understanding.
December 13th, 2019 at 11:37 AM ^
I liked it a lot - especially how BB seemed like a pretty normal dude at most times.
December 13th, 2019 at 12:02 PM ^
Did not watch.
December 13th, 2019 at 12:37 PM ^
i think there is a fundamental difference b/w BB and satan. BB seems like a pretty good guy on the whole. on the other hand, when satan is upset he looks like he is so full of a condescending, intense, viciousness that he is barely able to contain. a buddy of mine is a big sparty and he went to football camp back when satan was there as an assistant - said nick is pure grade A jerk.
December 13th, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^
Saban's reaction as clock wound down on the Auburn loss was priceless. Beet red, screaming at his sideline as Auburn kneeled out the clock.
December 13th, 2019 at 1:55 PM ^
That was nearly 30 years ago though, I'd guess he may have changed a bit. I'm not really a fan of his, but he recruits TALENT at Bama, and there has to be some authenticity and likability there. Can't just be "i'll get you to the NFL" because most of their players 1 don't go to the league and 2 a good number of coaches can get you to the NFL if you work hard enough.
And from the high school coaches and the couple college guys I know who have been around Nick, they loved him. There's apparently a closed door side to him that a lot of his guys love. I've heard the same about Belichek.
December 13th, 2019 at 5:29 PM ^
"...when satan is upset he looks like he is so full of a condescending, intense, viciousness that he is barely able to contain..."
I would love to know what you thought of Bo's or Woody's outbursts on the sideline...
December 13th, 2019 at 7:39 PM ^
i can't speak much to woody, but as to bo, there is a very tangible difference. bo was just plain mad when he'd go off. it might be hard to describe but bo's anger was maybe sincere, normal? saban's seems to have a barely suppressed intensity to it that you can see behind the mask and there is a real fury and unrestrained evil, for lack of a better description.
December 13th, 2019 at 4:06 PM ^
The doc was incredible. Here are some great takes.
1. Opening in Saban's office when BB says they'd like a few minutes. Director follows up and with a nod of the head, BB say "GTFOH".
2. Coaches calling about players before drafting them. Unbelievable!
3. Talk about technology and coaching.
4. Pro Days and Combine. BB asking Saban about who are the best players was tremendous.
5. BB imitating Saban's wife when she was absolutely ball busting them on a visit to their home. That was classic!
December 13th, 2019 at 5:22 PM ^
The least you can do in a thread is spell names correctly. It is Belichick.