Apparently, the NCAA has already received a response from MSU about Nassar
I know there is already an Engler thread just below this. If the mods wish to combine these, I have no objection.
However, I do think the MSU response to the NCAA may merit it's own thread.
As usual, MSU has gone full cocoon and will not release either the letter of inquiry from the NCAA nor their response.
It is known that the NCAA expected MSU to at least self report some secondary violations about the Nassar situation, and as far as anyone knows they have failed to do so.
http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index.ssf/2018/04/michigan_state_responde…
This MSU thing is far from over. The book's not written.
And as for PSU, various people were either (or all of) indicted, found guilty and/or thrown in jail. The NCAA fined the school $60MM, which is a lot of money. The 2 years of NCAA penalties, even if a reduction, weren't completely insignificant, they did limit the program's ability to succeed. Those are all real consequences.
Metaphorically, PSU's punishment from the NCAA amounted to less than an arm being tied behind it's back. In fact, had that been the actual punishment, the net effect on the field and the program would have been much greater than losing a few scholarships and a (very) temporary ban on post-season appearances.
The upshot is that administrators and governing boards at schools like Michigan State are now essentially telling the NCAA to pound sand. Who can blame them? There's not even the slightest pretense of justice.
If the NCAA is going to demonstrate obvious inequity in meting out punishment, and limit itself to a stern finger-wag at the schools it favors, then why shouldn't a school take its chances? Frankly, I'm surprised more institutions don't just take the NCAA to court.
they finished ahead of Wisconsin in whichever goofy Legends/Leaders division that was. Wisky went to Indianapolis and beat Nebraska by about 40 in that year's title game.
That was also done w/o the 9 players who levaraged their "free transfer rights" between mid-July and early September (a penalty that some folk forget was invoked).
PSU then was thoroughly average from 2013-2015. That was a result of the sanctions too.
I get it --- some people felt "entitled" (for lack of a better word) to seeing PSU go 2-10 for two decades after the Sandusky thing. That that didn't happen doesn't mean the program felt no on-the-field impact.
Yes, PSU football has many "structural advantages" (fan support, brand pedigree, recruiting base, program resources) over the majority of college football programs. As such, they'll tend to be average even in the worst of times. And, yes, those "structural advantages" also helped them rebound fairly quickly in 2016-2017 once the sanctions' impact had faded.
But that's nothing that the football program or its fans should have to apologize for. Penalties were issued (penalties that would be over by now anyway, even w/o a reduction), the school served them, and the penalties had an impact.
April 18th, 2018 at 10:20 PM ^
When I talk about "not having to apologize" .......... I'm saying that the PSU program and their fans should not have to apologize for their inherent "structural advantages" (advantages that allowed a quicker rebound from sanctions than many other schools would have experienced).
I don't believe I'm a martyr.
The just of the post you replied to was what it was - laying out my reasons that I think an argument that "the NCAA penalties did not have a material impact on PSU football's level of success in the 2012-2015 era" is a flawed argument.
Nittanyfan, I appreciate your presence here and other than your PSU fandom you seem like a level-headed dude with good and fair insight - but I have to disagree with you this time. The consequences from the NCAA that PSU "suffered" do not qualify as real in my book. Not even close. The jail time sort of approaches that standard - I think there should have been much more of it - but the NCAA consequences were risible.
I agree with Njia that it's just silly now. Every school should basically do what UNC, MSU, OSU, et al. are doing, which is to stonewall and deny and delay. The NCAA obviously won't apply enforce anything serious.
Which is why I'm convinced Michigan should just start paying its players on the books. Straight up "Fuck you" to the NCAA. Let's be the leaders and best. What is someone going to say to us? "Hey, how dare you compensate your (for the most part) underprivileged students for generating millions of dollars for the university?" Come on. It would be a PR slam dunk. Sure, it'd be a pain for a couple of years, we'd have to form our own league in every sport, but that sort of thing is what leaders do, right? Within a few years we'd have a great league, and we'd have a great place in history. But beyond that, it's simply the right thing to do.
(1) PSU was penalized on the basis of the Freeh Report. The NCAA's primarily sited Bylaw 10.1, as opposed to any their other bylaws, in justifying their penalties. Bylaw 10.1 is "unethical conduct", which if you read it - is a true catch-all. It can really be applied to anything if the NCAA desires.
(2) The Freeh Report was, to a significant degree, the basis for the various criminal charges that were levied against Graham Spanier and Tim Curley in late 2012-2013.
(3) In 2017, Graham Spanier was found "not guilty" on some (not all) of those criminal charges.
Given such - is it defensible for MSU to take a stance of "unless you can charge us with any specific violations beyond Bylaw 10.1, we're not playing ball in terms of accepting NCAA penalties until this plays out in an actual court of law?"
(for the record, my stance in July 2012 - I can't remember if I posted here back then or not - was that PSU was correct in both (a) publicly releasing the Freeh Report and (b) not fighting the NCAA penalties. Take the penalties and shut up completely about it, even if a reasonable argument could be made that Emmert and the NCAA did not afford PSU "due process. Move on and build forward.)
April 19th, 2018 at 12:38 AM ^
Depends what you mean by 'defensible,' obviously. But as I was saying, yeah, I think it's completely 'defensible' for MSU to stonewall if the only criteria is "avoid NCAA and legal penalties." That's part of my beef with the NCAA; the NCAA's complete abdication of enforcement has changed the college sports environment so much that obstructing justice (using that phrase loosely) is almost always the best policy, and cheating to begin with is even more often the best policy.
On a slightly different note, I really do think MSU is doing serious damage to their brand . We'll see. They're lucky that, at least for now, it's still a seller's market in higher education. But I think in the long run they're going to be taken down a notch or two by this.
PSU came away stronger over time, after the Sandusky scandal. Seems to have unified a huge part of the base. They were middling, before that.
April 18th, 2018 at 11:00 PM ^
You really do a poor job of disguising yourself.
I'd sooner take MGoPoints than bitcoin, but that's just me . . .
or too obtuse, but you need a financial advisor.
Just make sure my advisor is an egotistical millenial with no grasp of history. Lemme send you a nice Dutch tulip, little buddy . . .
April 18th, 2018 at 10:57 PM ^
April 18th, 2018 at 11:03 PM ^
You come at the king, you best not miss . . .
No particular reason - Omar Little just works for everything . . .
April 19th, 2018 at 10:44 AM ^
Indeed.
Having no grasp of history is not as bad as having no grasp of the present, much less the future.
April 21st, 2018 at 10:25 AM ^
Was to an earlier OT Mineralking argument on the boards, in case you missed it. Unfortunately Mineralkings bitcoin buy recommendation is down 20% from that point in time.
Thank you, Arb Lover, for filling me in, and thank you, Blue in Paradise, for making me giggle trail mix . . .
April 18th, 2018 at 10:34 PM ^
I recently joined that club. A certain MGoBlog writer took offense to my exaggeratedly poking fun at the perpetually offended crowd and deducted me 3,000 points, naturally. To make things worse, my comments was +12/-0 in a contentious comment chain with a lot of negs on both sides, and was intended to offer levity on both sides to defuse the situation, which based on the vote totals did exactly that. It wasn't only me, as he also caved a long-time poster and great contributor in the same thread. It's ridiculous.
Hopefully the new MGoBlog has a far superior system in terms of moderation in terms of communication, reporting, warnings, and accountability. I understand that this is a free board, but two decades ago I was part of boards that had superior systems that certainly nobody made their living off of. Getting randomly caved or banned with zero communication or appeals process, disallowing full participation in the community in terms of taking away the ability to vote, is a joke. Those in charge are barely even accountable to each other, there's no oversight of anybody. It's completely Bush League that multiple people make their living off of this site and this is the system that they've had in place for so long.
April 19th, 2018 at 10:54 AM ^
April 21st, 2018 at 10:15 AM ^
I know just what you mean. People are upset about this and have pointed out that if any other business had to cough up 500 mill, that business would be no more. But I do think you are right, I just wish you weren't. As much as most of us would like to see the plug pulled, that's a bit of a stretch. Do all of us (one time) Motor City peeps need to be reminded of what is too big to fail?
MSU has (to me) proven that they can't be trusted to run their own affairs, and that at the least someone of high character needs to be brought in to straighten things out, but isn't that just what they think they did? They all want to point to Engler and his band of stooges as proof to their earnest desire to get back on the right path.
It's tough though, because as you point out, a large university doesn't disappear. Basically, 50,000 semi-students learning about cows and whatever get screwed if you screw MSU. And even if it were possible to give the school a well-deserved death penalty, that just means that those 50,000 people have to find a school to go to.
I absolutely think MSU should be wiped off the planet for more than one reason, but it just isn't practical. Life doesn't work that way . . .
from sports programs would go a long way.
Let them focus resources on restructuring and education.
Athletic superiority (if you want to call it that) surpassed every other consideration from ethics, to education, to covering crimes, to committing crimes, including rape of young girls. Let the punishment fit the crime.
April 18th, 2018 at 10:00 PM ^
And here's another thing we need to nail down. I said this will cost $500 mill. I could be really really wrong, and it's still $250 mill. Part of what has really been itching at me is this: this money will be paid, but from where? Taking the payments from the endowment is ultimately pretty much the same as taking it from the taxpayers. So, who pays?
I'd like to take every cent Larry Nasser has (won't happen) and his pension as well. I'd like to take every cent every administrator involved in any coverup has (won't happen), and take their pensions as well. Board of Trustees, now I'm looking in your direction. (still won't happen)
So, when push comes to shove, who is really going to foot the bill? If you pay taxes in Michigan, or tuition to MSU, THAT is what will happen. I'm sure everyone in the state feels great knowing that their taxes and tuition go to paying the bill for MSU staff and athletes to rape women though. Money well spent, I'm sure.
If you thought I'd come up with a good solution, or any solution, sorry. It looks to me like the bad guys are going to keep their ill gotten gains. Boo.
"and as far as anyone knows they have failed to do so."
That statement is misleading and should be edited. The reference is from a Jan 23rd letter and does not imply they have not self-reported anything in their current investigation.
Unless YOU know, it is 100% accurate.
It is also fair to note that MSU did not have to stonewall the FOIA requests about this, and could have released their response to the NCAA.
They chose to hide their response and the letter of inquiry.
They have the right to do both - for now.
What about MSU's handling of this do you think merits them any benefit of the doubt whatsoever?
To me, it implies that the information is relevant to their current response, which it is not. It's similar to a click bait title.
Tell me more about these aliens . . .
for any aspect of how they have handled this scandal. I'm not sure what they hope to gain from hiding their response, but that's consistent with not self reporting any infractions. Make the press work go to court to see something that should be public, make the NCAA work to find any wrongdoing. And likely deny everything then.